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An Indian Tale Of Woe : A submarine race in the region

it takes time to design your own nuclear submarine , and yeah we have completed the first one and its currently undergoing sea trials , with 5 more to follow .

But i still bet Kayani pees a little , everytime he thinks about that khokha


Yeah he pees a bit and the ocean current dumps the alkaline mix on Indian shores and the fluid helps in keeping your Khokha floating.

Yaar.. Tum pehle apne khokhe ko to float karo.. baad mein moonh kholna...


Chini bana rahay hein na.

Hamein kya problem hai.

Ham to siraf Inshaallah keh detay hein, Allah sabab peda kar deta hei.

You see, we are the long lost tribe of Jews.

using 2 shipyards simultaneously is a good option but that would require modular shipping technology but i highly doubt that pakistani shipyards have that capability

But the most important question still remains the same ''where is the money???'' to build 7 subs

Even India has floated a new tender for 6 new AIP subs for $11 billion of which U 214 is a contender

The brazilians also ordered 4 scropions subs for $9.9 billion in 2009

So u can very well imagine how much it'll gonna take for PN to pay for 7 if any day it plans to order them....:wave:


Chinion se dosti kiyun rakhi hai.

We will buy one, they will produce the remaining five for us.

Allah Allah ... Khairsallah.
 
Arre.. Paint bhi to karna hai :)

Doosray forum ki zaban yahan mat istimal karo. Expose ho jaogay.

Waisay, paint bhi wohi kar detay hein.

We just operationalize these things and prepare to use them against India.

But on serious note, we have much much better capabilities than many of you believe that we have.

Indians members, its a stratergypage article.


And what does that mean.
 
It has taken India 30 years to attempt building a nuclear sub and that too with continued Russian support and assistance and what did it produce - A Floating Khokha.

At the end, Russia se ek nuke sub karaye pe le li.

30 years...yeah arihant is under sea trials......

Wat about your known existant SSBN??:rofl:

Yeah he pees a bit and the ocean current dumps the alkaline mix on Indian shores and the fluid helps in keeping your Khokha floating.
.

lol that might keep your F22p fishing trawler get a better catch of sardines....:rofl::rofl:
 
Chinion se dosti kiyun rakhi hai.

We will buy one, they will produce the remaining five for us.

Allah Allah ... Khairsallah.

my question was in regard with a Pak member talking about JV with Germans for a new Sub n claiming to produce 7 subs in 5 years
Now that seems pretty high even by Chinese standards:azn:
 
FACTUALLY Incorrect and Hyperbola Bullshit. Poor Journalism

1. Scorpene will be delivered starting 2015 one every 6 months, all 6 will be delivered in 3 years.
2. Scorpene and Agosta 90 Both are different Generations of Submarines.
3. Indian did not Buy Scorpene because PN bought Agosta.
4. 3 Follow on subs will be built in addition to 6 already ordered.




Agosta 90B submarines are equipped with a SUBTICS fully integrated combat system. Agosta 90B submarine is fitted with four bow 533mm torpedo tubes and has the capacity to carry a mixed load of up to 16 torpedoes and missiles. The submarine can be equipped with the ECAN F17 mod 2 torpedo, which is a wire-guided torpedo with active and passive homing to a range of 20km. The torpedo delivers a 250kg warhead to a depth of 600m. Agosta 90B is equipped with the torpedo tube launched MBDA (formerly EADS Aerospatiale) Exocet SM39 missile. Target range and bearing data is downloaded into the Exocet's computer.
The missile approaches the target area in sea-skimming mode using inertial navigation and then active radar homing. The missile travels at speeds over Mach 0.9, and has a range of 50km. Exocet has a 165kg high-explosive shaped-charge warhead.
Thales DR-3000U radar warning receiver, operating in D to K bands.
The system uses a masthead antenna array with omnidirectional and monopulse directional antennae and a separate periscope warning antenna
The submarine is fitted with a Thales Underwater Systems (formerly Thomson Marconi Sonar) TSM 223 sonar suite, which includes bow-mounted sonar and towed sonar arrays, SAGEM periscopes and navigation system and Thales I-band navigation radar. The diesel-electric system consists of two SEMT-Pielstick 16 PA4 V 185 VG diesels providing 3,600hp and a 2,200kW electric motor driving a single propeller. MESMA air-independent propulsion system, being fitted to the Agosta 90B submarines for Pakistan, allows the submarine to remain submerged three times longer.
The MESMA system consists essentially of a turbine receiving high-pressure steam from a combustion chamber, burning a gaseous mixture of ethanol and liquid oxygen. The Agosta 90B's performance remains the same in all other respects, except that the length increases from 67m to 76m and submerged displacement from 1,760t to 2,050t

SSK Agosta 90B Class Submarine - Naval Technology


Scorpene submarines
Scorpene is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability. Positive discharge launching is by an air turbine pump. The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles.
18 torpedoes and missiles or 30 mines can be carried by the Scorpene attack submarine. The handling and loading of weapons is automated.
SUBTICS combat management system, with up to six multifunction common consoles and a centrally situated tactical table, is collocated with the platform-control facilities.The combat management system is composed of a command and tactical data handling system, a weapon control system and an integrated suite of acoustic sensors with an interface to a set of air surface detection sensors and to the integrated navigation system. The system can also download data from external sources.The integrated navigation system combines data from global positioning systems, the log, depth measurement and the ship's trim / list monitoring system. The Scorpene monitors the environment including seawater density and temperature and the submarine's own noise signature.
The sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array.
All submarine handling operations are carried out from the control room. The vessel features a high level of automation and surveillance, with automatic control mode of rudders and propulsion, continuous monitoring of the propulsion systems and platform installations, centralised and continuous surveillance of all potential hazards (leaks, fires, presence of gases) and the status of the installations that affect the safety while submerged.
The submarine incorporates a high level of system redundancy to achieve an average 240 days at sea a year for each submarine. The maximum diving depth is 300m, giving the commander more tactical freedom than previously available on conventional submarines. There is no limit to the duration of dives at a maximum depth, other than the power systems and crew limitations. The planning and design of the Scorpene was directed towards achieving an extremely quiet vessel with a great detection capability and offensive power.
The forms of the hull, the sail and the appendages have been specifically designed to produce minimum hydrodynamic noise. The various items of equipment are mounted on elastic supports, which are in turn mounted on uncoupled blocks and suspended platforms. The isolation also provides better shock protection to the equipment.

Scorpene has two diesel generation sets providing 1,250kW of power. At the top of the hull immediately above the diesel generator sets is a Dutch Breach machinery shipping hatch. The submarine has an elastically supported 2,900kW electronic engine.
There are two variants of Scorpene, the CM-2000 with the conventional propulsion system and the AM-2000 equipped with air independent propulsion. The AM-2000 is capable of remaining submerged on underwater patrol for three times longer than the CM-2000.

SSK Scorpene Class Attack Submarine - Naval Technology


thanks for info
 
Time for Pakistan to buy few of type 214 German Submarines. That should help to equalize balance of power in the sea.

Who's stopping you from a purchase? Why not Chinese submarines? You have a strategic agreement with them don't you?

Chini bana rahay hein na.

Hamein kya problem hai.

Ham to siraf Inshaallah keh detay hein, Allah sabab peda kar deta hei.

You see, we are the long lost tribe of Jews.

You're a Jew? :blink:

I thought Pakistanis were Turkic-Arab-Persian mix according to a Pakistani member who was kind enough to share Pakistan's ancestral history with me here on the forum.

If you're Jew, why are you having Pakistan's flag?

Now since you declared it, rest of your supposed countrymen will be after you.
 
Dude it took Pakistan 10 yrs to build 1 Agosta 90B subs ie contract signed in 1996 , Karachi Shipyard Delivered first and only Sub in 2007
first 2 subs came from france in 1999, 2001

using 2 shipyards simultaneously is a good option but that would require modular shipping technology but i highly doubt that pakistani shipyards have that capability

But the most important question still remains the same ''where is the money???'' to build 7 subs

Even India has floated a new tender for 6 new AIP subs for $11 billion of which U 214 is a contender

The brazilians also ordered 4 scropions subs for $9.9 billion in 2009

So u can very well imagine how much it'll gonna take for PN to pay for 7 if any day it plans to order them....:wave:

You have taken it too wrong and the reports you have aren't right too. First Agosta-90B was built in France with PN involvement for learning purpose and then 2nd Agosta-90B was assembled with French Help and 3rd Agosta-90B was built with some parts from Pakistan and rest from France.

The Plan should they should have followed would be 1st Agosta-90B from France, 2nd and 3rd would be assembled, 4th and 5th would be manufactured and last 6th and 7th one too.
1st Agosta-90B:1999
2nd and 3rd Agosta-90B:2001
4th and 5th Agosta-90B: 2004
6th and 7th Agosta-90B: 2007

All this can be achieved by utilizing the two shipyards. Although we have two dry docks as well from other ships maintenance but I would like to say that if PN has taken some bold decisions in 1999/2000 like making a third shipyard at KE&SWs along with a third dry dock as well and upgrading the whole facility. Also setup a plan in 1999 to upgrade Agosta-70s to a similar Subtics level as Agosta-90B to remain in service till 2015 then the situation now will be totally different.
 
I have seen in many articles here that if any author is hell bent on bashing any country (be it India, Pak, or any other) than he sees doomsday scenario for that country in everything & does not have the courtesy to mention any silver lining, so this makes the article completely one sided & biased, There are many faults in this articles:

1. It is true that first scorpene is delayed by 3 years to 2015 (from original schedule of 2012), but IN will get each subsequent subs at an interval of 6 months (not a year) thus the delivery of last sub will be by 2018 (a delay of just 1 year as the original timeline was of 2017).

2. No doubt there is a delay in the project but on the positive note, it has given immense expertise & tech. to Indian shipyards so that they can design there own subs in the future without depending on any foreign power for help.

3. Each Indian action cannot be seen as a reaction to what Pakistan purchase or in this case Pakistan navy purchase (was INS viky purchase a reaction to PN??). PN can no way be compared to IN, IN is seen as a stabilizing force of the IOR region & PN is more of a coastal/brown water navy, each have it's own priority, PN is a defensive force for which subs are the best vessel to defend itself against any IN attack, while IN is in somewhat direct competition with PLAN for domination of entire IOR which make IN giving priorities to ACs, Frigates, Destroyers, etc. & not just subs.

4. Every time a discussion of IN subs takes place there is only talk of how obsolete it's subs have become, people conveniently forget that the oldest IN subs were inducted in 1986 (26 years old) whereas 5 out of 8 subs that PN has, were inducted before IN's oldest subs ( so which have more obsolete fleet??).

5. Whatever one say IN sub fleet stands today at no. 5 in the world (behind US, China, Russia, France) in nos. & it will only grow in years to come with these planned inductions:

6+3 = 9 scorpenes, 6 P-75I, 3 Arihant class nuke subs, 2 leased akula II, making it 20 technologically advanced subs to be inducted in 10-15 years time. Plus there are plans to make atleast 2 classes of indigenous subs (6 sub each class).

These inductions will make the sub fleet of IN at par among the major military powers like the US, China & Russia, so any talk of a submarine race b/w PN & IN is just an illusion, as IN will be way ahead of PN in a decade, with the induction of SSBNs,SSNs, subs with AIP, indigenous subs etc.
 
Bhai, while the author is a panic monger, we must remember that our underwater fleet is in bad shape; that is the reality.

We're having submarines that are as old as the Soviet era itself. Retrofitting these submarines will not change their shelf life enough to sustain a full-blown combat scenario. Right now there are no countries that would challenge our position in Indian Ocean but future cannot be guaranteed. While US manages the lower portion of IOR, we need to ensure that our part of the ocean is safe and free from encroachment. Not only our territory (the soon-to-be-transferred islands from Mauritius) is at stake, but also two very good allies who depend on us for national security (Mauritius and Seychelles).

We need at least 20 conventional attack submarines and that too modern. This submarine modernization should have begun in 2000 itself but unfortunately the 90s financial crisis had been haunting us all this time.

Today, we have a measly 16 submarines all of them ancient. To get those Scorpenes in time, we need to free up our private contractors like L&T who have shown interest in getting the subs made in India. Because of the pesky government's myopic vision, Pipavav and L&T were sidelined from being considered to make the subs in India. This put pressure on sarkari dockyards, forcing the IN to opt for half the subs being made in France.

I mean, WTF is that supposed to be? Intentionally keeping indigenous builders out so that they can get their fat commission pay cheques? :hitwall:

When I first read that news, I was shocked.

While we have a powerful surface fleet which is only growing stronger, we need to ensure that our submarine force level if not the flagship, but is at least modern enough to cater to our threat perception scenarios. Currently, the reality is that we are not.

It is understandable that IN has to manage in the budget it is allocated and it is doing its best. But the constant obstacles posed by the government for the Navy is going to create problems if it continues like this.

The modernization of any armed forces is a periodic process and a time consuming one which requires constant efforts and proactive steps from the government to ensure sufficient battle readiness is present all the time. Our sub availability is abysmal right now.
 
Bhai, while the author is a panic monger, we must remember that our underwater fleet is in bad shape; that is the reality.

We're having submarines that are as old as the Soviet era itself. Retrofitting these submarines will not change their shelf life enough to sustain a full-blown combat scenario. Right now there are no countries that would challenge our position in Indian Ocean but future cannot be guaranteed. While US manages the lower portion of IOR, we need to ensure that our part of the ocean is safe and free from encroachment. Not only our territory (the soon-to-be-transferred islands from Mauritius) is at stake, but also two very good allies who depend on us for national security (Mauritius and Seychelles).

We need at least 20 conventional attack submarines and that too modern. This submarine modernization should have begun in 2000 itself but unfortunately the 90s financial crisis had been haunting us all this time.

Today, we have a measly 16 submarines all of them ancient. To get those Scorpenes in time, we need to free up our private contractors like L&T who have shown interest in getting the subs made in India. Because of the pesky government's myopic vision, Pipavav and L&T were sidelined from being considered to make the subs in India. This put pressure on sarkari dockyards, forcing the IN to opt for half the subs being made in France.

I mean, WTF is that supposed to be? Intentionally keeping indigenous builders out so that they can get their fat commission pay cheques? :hitwall:

When I first read that news, I was shocked.

While we have a powerful surface fleet which is only growing stronger, we need to ensure that our submarine force level if not the flagship, but is at least modern enough to cater to our threat perception scenarios. Currently, the reality is that we are not.

It is understandable that IN has to manage in the budget it is allocated and it is doing its best. But the constant obstacles posed by the government for the Navy is going to create problems if it continues like this.

The modernization of any armed forces is a periodic process and a time consuming one which requires constant efforts and proactive steps from the government to ensure sufficient battle readiness is present all the time. Our sub availability is abysmal right now.

mate, i agree with u on many points here, but we should not forget that India currently has the one of the fastest submarine production program (if not the fastest), if we just see the scenario till end of the present decade than we can surely count on these i.e 9 scorpenes + 2-3 P-75I subs + 3 Arihant class SSBN + 2 Akula II, thus we will be having 16-17 modern subs (both conventional & nuclear) within just 8 years, than it will be matter of some more years that IN sub fleet will be among the top 3 navies in the world. Yes IN's focus has always been more on surface fleet (especially ACs) but of lately they are acknowledging the importance of the sub fleet just as PLAN is currently acknowledging the importance of ACs, this was because IN consisted of a two schools of thoughts, one which focused on building a surface fleet & another building a sub fleet, IN was always having very low budget & it often had to choose between a surface navy or an underwater navy, we din't had any subs till 1960s, & the reason i found out (shocking for me at least) was that our great leaders thought that it was a too offensive a weapon to develop & operated by a peaceful country like India :hitwall: It is now only that IN has the luxury/budget to go for both fleets, So we were the late entrants in the sub business, but we are surely catching up.
 
Nice analysis .........But I have some doubts .......

2. No doubt there is a delay in the project but on the positive note, it has given immense expertise & tech. to Indian shipyards so that they can design there own subs in the future without depending on any foreign power for help.

What makes you think that scorpene TOT will enable them to build homegrown subs which the shishumar couldnot ??

Plus there are plans to make atleast 2 classes of indigenous subs (6 sub each class).

That is news .......

Is there any source for that ???

And also there is no concrete proof for the second akula .......
 
Nice analysis .........But I have some doubts .......



What makes you think that scorpene TOT will enable them to build homegrown subs which the shishumar couldnot ??

We got the TOT from building the German HDW subs also, but our pathetic decision making shelved any future indegenious sub b'coz of the bofors scam at that time & the expertise which MDL gained in HDW sub construction got lost.

As far as Scorpene is concerned we are getting full TOT from DCNS, this is the very reason why the project has got delayed b'coz the TOT absorption by MDL is taking time as scorpenes are very advanced subs.

http://idp.justthe80.com/naval-projects/submarines/project-75-scorpene-submarines



That is news .......

Is there any source for that ???

In 1999 CCS approved a 30 year submarine construction program in which 24 subs were to be constructed in Indian shipyards, 6 are the scorpenes + 6 will be the P-75I subs + rest 12 will be indegineously built sub of 2 classes (6 in each class) by utilizing the TOT we get through P-75 & P-75I.

chk this:

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories227.htm

..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy’s second Submarine Line will witness strong competition

Project 75I Submarines - IDP Sentinel

And also there is no concrete proof for the second akula .......

I am absolutely sure that we will go for a second akula 2 sub, this was said by our defence minister also:

Livefist: Govt Considering A 2nd Akula-II
 
it takes time to design your own nuclear submarine , and yeah we have completed the first one and its currently undergoing sea trials , with 5 more to follow .

But i still bet Kayani pees a little , everytime he thinks about that khokha

What will this floating khokha do launch a nuclear Missile which can even be launched from land.
 

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