Alternate solution for Pakistan Navy to counter Large Navies ?

[Sardar Singh]

;"Umma Chumma dey dey"

.

This line nearly killed me

 

[danger007]

Pak maritime defense planners will do well to understand the naval defense doctrines of Iran,China and DPRK to prepare for an asymmetric maritime defense.

a. Swarming tactics.

b. Shore based coastal defenses with outreaches provided by missiles, artty guns and even rockets.

c. Three dimensional coastal defense.

d. Commonly ignored, Pakistan has many islands. Build them up as static aircraft carriers.

e. Acquire ability to secretly / with stealth hit enemies naval bases and major assets like aircraft carriers, subs and refuellers. Also raid ammunition and fuel dumps.

f. Pakistan must identify friends in the littoral region from Indonesia to Somalia. Base facilities and covert/overt assistance during war with India must be sought for self, and denied to the enemy.

g. IN's depth and strength really lies in the east.Andaman Command and IN Eastern Command, Vyzag have more potent resources. These must be hit to imbalance entire IN.

A. how can PN use swarming tactics or overwhelm IN with its tiny fleet? ? ?
B. defense network are there in every Naval bases, i don't know what kinda new thing you are suggesting here??
C. what is 3 D defense???
D.. they don't have that much air borne fleet to have static AC..
E..can you please mention those UFO/ BD stealth project details.
F.. none of them will get involve. ...Somalia???
G..your conclusion---- PN should acquire defence networks, stealth BD UFO tech, art guns, missiles etc. to secure its port.... and overwhelm IN fleet such as CBG, A and N, Vizag etc... with quantitative and qualitative edge IN can't save its assets, whereas with small naval fleet PN can blow IN.... With powerful naval assets neither IN can't hit single target (karachi)... nor it can save its assets.... lol and you are professional...

 

[Abingdonboy]

g. IN's depth and strength really lies in the east.Andaman Command and IN Eastern Command, Vyzag have more potent resources. These must be hit to imbalance entire IN.

This is the most absurd part. Tell me how the PAKISTANI NAVY is going to "hit" Vizag or A&N islands when both are thousands of KMs away from Pakistani bases and are both being SERIOUSLY beefed up.

And this is such a simplistic analysis you have put forth only a a navy vs navy scenario. In reality in a full-scale war both sides are going to be using all their military assets so tell me how the PN/PAF is going to reach let alone hit the aforementioned IN naval bases in the East and Andaman sea when you factor in the IAF which has a huge presence in the A&N islands that it is building up not to mention a growing presence in the South and East of India.

 

[ni8mare]

This is the most absurd part. Tell me how the PAKISTANI NAVY is going to "hit" Vizag or A&N islands when both are thousands of KMs away from Pakistani bases and are both being SERIOUSLY beefed up.

And this is such a simplistic analysis you have put forth only a a navy vs navy scenario. In reality in a full-scale war both sides are going to be using all their military assets so tell me how the PN/PAF is going to reach let alone hit the aforementioned IN naval bases in the East and Andaman sea when you factor in the IAF which has a huge presence in the A&N islands that it is building up not to mention a growing presence in the South and East of India.

here danger007 explans ..

your conclusion---- PN should acquire defence networks, stealth BD UFO tech, art guns, missiles etc. to secure its port.... and overwhelm IN fleet such as CBG, A and N, Vizag etc... with quantitative and qualitative edge IN can't save its assets, whereas with small naval fleet PN can blow IN.... With powerful naval assets neither IN can't hit single target (karachi)... nor it can save its

Source: Alternate solution for Pakistan Navy to counter Large Navies ? | Page 20

 

[AMCA]

Pakistan is a late comer to the 21st century war conditions, while countries like India and China have marched light years ahead. The only way Pakistan can stop India is China. Catch hold of them tight and don't let go of them as they are your best weapons against India.

They too would soon go dud as we are improving our relations with China and in your language we claim to say that we are defusing the biggest weapon you have at your disposal.. CHINA, with the help of our foreign policy.

 

[Neptune]

Just simply (also budget constrains in mind);

Effective sub-surface fleet supplimented by predator Naval Aviation elements.

 

[Contrarian]

Just simply (also budget constrains in mind);

Effective sub-surface fleet supplimented by predator Naval Aviation elements.

That does not work out well either as they have numerical(and to some extent technological) disadvantage in aviation as well. Their entire fighter complement will be engaged in defending from IAF whereas IN operates its own fighter squadrons in addition to loan squadrons from IAF for Naval duties.

 

[Neptune]

That does not work out well either as they have numerical(and to some extent technological) disadvantage in aviation as well. Their entire fighter complement will be engaged in defending from IAF whereas IN operates its own fighter squadrons in addition to loan squadrons from IAF for Naval duties.

That's why I put that bhaiyo

Because Indian squids pose a kickass aviation force. They'd need an aerial encounter to distract and divert the IN Aviation Arm from it's prior surface targets.

If the topic is Indian Naval Aviation;

From ex-midshipman's perspective, considering equipment, training, firepower and forward logistics; Indian Naval Aviation is second to USN in Indian Ocean. And there's a gab between whoever's ranked behind.

We studied IN in classes

 

[Abingdonboy]

Just simply (also budget constrains in mind);

Effective sub-surface fleet supplimented by predator Naval Aviation elements.

The first part is doable (somewhat)- even if the IN's advanced ASW capabilities poses a distinct deterrent to this- but the second part (aviation assets) is a non-starter for the cash-strapped PN. Right now the IN aviation arms holds a significant advantage over the PN's limited naval aviation assets and even the PAF's top line fighters (Blk.52s) but as time goes by the IN is only going to extend its superiority and fill in the gaps that exist within its ranks today (mostly on the rotary wing front).

From ex-midshipman's perspective, considering equipment, training, firepower and forward logistics; Indian Naval Aviation is second to USN in Indian Ocean.

No doubt about that, who else would be in the second position? 2 ACCs (one of which is extremely potent), 45 (30-35 delivered) MiG-29K/KUBs (amongst the finest carrier fighters in service), P-8I LR-MPAs (the best MPA in service) and a growing number of long-range UAVs (Herons and Searchers for now). With an ambitious expansion plan, by the middle to end of the next decade the IN will surely be challenging the USN's deployed assets in the IOR (not the whole USN obviously).

Also @Neptune if we are talking about maritime aviation, it should be noted that the IAF has a number of its MKIs SQDs trained for maritime strikes (MKIs will also be based in the IAF's Southern Air bases now) and has 1 SQD of Jaguar IM specifically for maritime strike.

 

[Thorough Pro]

u r plain stupid, aren't you?

It takes only a single bullet to neutralize or couple to kill a soldier. How many soldiers do India have? In terms of numbers Pakistan should have all of them covered. Whats the wait, take back Kashmir and than some!

do you have comprehension problems or are you trolling?

Are you seriously a senior member in a defence forum?

What next, 100-120 missiles can take out whole of US Indian Ocean/ Pacific fleet



Stop playing too many video games

 

[danger007]

it takes only a single missiles to neutralize or a couple to sink it. how many target worthy naval combat vessels india have? 20? 40? 60? don't worry in terms of numbers we have them all covered, and then some more.

what a post wah wah.... you can't sink naval vessel with single missile... it depends upon payload ... silly assumptions from kids ... again you guys thinking , PN can sunk IN vessels with missiles but IN can't do anything PN vessels. .. If naval assets can take down by just missiles US , China etc wouldn't invest on ships rather they field just missiles.. There are defence network to sustain from attacks... PN doesn't have fire power like IN does...

 

[trident2010]

In all out war, PN only can hope to stop the larger navies for few hours/day(s) from destroying its ports and cities by using clever combination of subs, underwater mines and surface vessels. However, if war is continued to be escalated, it will be a matter of time that larger navy will take over. So I guess the word is how long PN can resist and not, if it will breakdown.

 

[Neptune]

The first part is doable (somewhat)- even if the IN's advanced ASW capabilities poses a distinct deterrent to this- but the second part (aviation assets) is a non-starter for the cash-strapped PN. Right now the IN aviation arms holds a significant advantage over the PN's limited naval aviation assets and even the PAF's top line fighters (Blk.52s) but as time goes by the IN is only going to extend its superiority and fill in the gaps that exist within its ranks today (mostly on the rotary wing front).

It's obvious, I know. But for your notice, trying to divert and distract units with high firepower itself is a tactic and a very useful one as even seconds are very important at naval warfare. Where in this case, in a possible escalation PN aerial assets will be used for that excatly supplemented by PAF. Because IN Air Arms will be used in prior to destroy major logistic bases, naval installations and ports. I bet my money on that. Because for large scale navies such as IN, USN, RN, AE, TNF, Brazilian Navy; naval aviation is the primary strike force among with submarines. I can't put Russian Navy and PLAN on that. They use aviation for fleet defense&support roles.

The targets listed are the vital aort of PN to keep itself operational at war. As PN surface assets are not capable of countering IN aerial assets; the only option is PN Naval Air Arm and PAF. PN should have pose some some Mirages if I am not wrong. Probably PN subs would target Amphibious Assault Ships and IACs. But here comes your ASW capabilities. I say in such a conflict, first phase will be hell of a fighting which will last not so long. Laterly, IN will win it only if PAF is kept away which I think will be so.

No doubt about that, who else would be in the second position? 2 ACCs (one of which is extremely potent), 45 (30-35 delivered) MiG-29K/KUBs (amongst the finest carrier fighters in service), P-8I LR-MPAs (the best MPA in service) and a growing number of long-range UAVs (Herons and Searchers for now). With an ambitious expansion plan, by the middle to end of the next decade the IN will surely be challenging the USN's deployed assets in the IOR (not the whole USN obviously).

AFAIK, Poseidon is not a MPA. it's an aircraft with ASuW/ELINT/ASW roles.
I have to disagree about Migs. India has the funds for F-35B/C or Rafale C. They are sure capable of countering PN but there are bigger threats against India at sea. So I think it's a bad choice of going for Migs at sea, all due respect, they're not much good, at least for our and Indian standards.

Also @Neptune if we are talking about maritime aviation, it should be noted that the IAF has a number of its MKIs SQDs trained for maritime strikes (MKIs will also be based in the IAF's Southern Air bases now) and has 1 SQD of Jaguar IM specifically for maritime strike.

Jaguar is the guy to hit ships

 

[Abingdonboy]

India has the funds for F-35B/C or Rafale C.

They are sure capable of countering PN but there are bigger threats against India at sea.

So I think it's a bad choice of going for Migs at sea, all due respect, they're not much good, at least for our and Indian standards.

I have to disagree sir- the MiG-29K/KUBs are extremely formidable machines, I don't know if you've done much research on them but if you haven't I'd recommend doing so. If you are being thrown by the MiG-29 label this is a misdirection- the MiG-29K is effectively a brand new plane just with the same designation. Of all the types flown on carriers today they are just below the F-18E/F and Rafale-M and they are easily as capable or more capable than Pakistan's top of the line fighter - the F-16 Blk.52.

Looking into the future the IN is going to need either the F-35C or Rafale-M as they are soon to start building the IAC-2 which will be much larger than the Viky/IAC (around 60-65,000 tons) and will be CATOBAR configured (the MiG-29Ks can't be launched using catapults). I'm still not convinced on the F-35 as a whole to be honest and the Rafale-M whilst being a a very formidable a/c today won't be as relevant from the middle of next decade moving foreword (when the IAC-2 will be in service) also the N-FGFA if developed would not be able to launch from catapults so is ruled out, so the IN is in a bit of a difficult position as they want a next ten fighter for their future ACCs but their options are limited.

 

[Sinnerman108]

what a post wah wah.... you can't sink naval vessel with single missile... it depends upon payload ... silly assumptions from kids ... again you guys thinking , PN can sunk IN vessels with missiles but IN can't do anything PN vessels. .. If naval assets can take down by just missiles US , China etc wouldn't invest on ships rather they field just missiles.. There are defence network to sustain from attacks... PN doesn't have fire power like IN does...

Missiles with non conventional warheads.

What do you think PA has been doing since last 1 decade ? miniaturization is the game !
Low yield and high impact.

Secondly PN and our NESCOM has developed missiles with very credible guidance for this purpose exactly.
Harpoon (tinkered) and HATAF-7 (Raad) are developed for this purpose exactly.

Why do you think we needed an air launched cruise missile ?
surely not for land !

In all out war, PN only can hope to stop the larger navies for few hours/day(s) from destroying its ports and cities by using clever combination of subs, underwater mines and surface vessels. However, if war is continued to be escalated, it will be a matter of time that larger navy will take over. So I guess the word is how long PN can resist and not, if it will breakdown.

IN's advantage in subsurface power can not be countered by PN as yet.

Should they pull a surprise .. I don't know.