Alleged blasphemy: Mob burns 100 Christian homes in Lahore

[Dillinger]

@Hyperion @Secur @muse

Still, Thomas made sure that the benevolent face of Islam, all too often overlooked in the West, got a fair showing. I was almost moved to tears by the manifest decency and tolerance of a fellow called Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bukhari, who questioned how people can claim that their god is somehow more valid than their neighbour's. "Who are we to say that one is better? You have your religion and I have mine." That seems like a creed worth believing in.

Unfortunately, however, it is smothered by a belligerent, patriarchal form of Islam, called Wahabism, which has the formidable support of Saudi Arabian petro-dollars. This programme suggested that over the past few decades, upwards of $100 billion has been spent promoting Wahabism, and that the 10 million or so Qur'ans that roll off the printing presses each year are carefully doctored to appeal to modern emotions and prejudices. Thomas also found footage of a Cairo street in the 1970s. It looked like any southern Mediterranean city, with not a veil in sight, yet the same street now is full of heavily veiled women. Oil, it seems, is to blame.

The above is quoted from the following article, nothing path breaking or extraordinarily revelatory to you perhaps but it succinctly clears up where the conflict lies for uninitiated people like me. Last Night's TV: The Qur'an, Channel 4; Banged Up, Five - Reviews - TV & Radio - The Independent

 

[Sugarcane]

i could not found another place or did not wanted to open another threa. but Muse always barks against sunnis so i posted it here

Just like we have blind lovers of KSA who blame everything on Iran, we also have blind lovers of Iran who blame everything on KSA. No point in debating with these two extremes because it's irreversible damage.

 

[Developereo]

it's very important to identify the enemy

Identifying in private is one thing; blaring it from the loudspeakers is another.

I don't know what more you expect to achieve by naming specific countries and ideologies. Will it make our job of cleaning up Pakistan any easier? I dare say it will make it harder because the debate will be sidetracked by their defenders taking us to task and asking us to prove our claims. While we may win that debate, it will turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory for us by damaging our relations with the entire region. And, on the domestic front, the increased negativity surrounding the whole campaign will backfire on us.

Remember, we want a positive campaign: Pakistan is a beacon of safety and opportunity for all its citizens, regardless of their religion, and we cherish our ethnic, linguistic and religious diversity.

Keep it simple.

 

[GoodBoy]

Yes.

You know what ?

Non-Muslims dont care or dont need to care what is written in Arabic in your texts. We care what the readers and practioners of those texts do to non-Muslims using what is written in those texts as justification.

For non-Muslims, Islam is what Muslims practise. What it is in practise, not what it is supposed to be in theory.

Bang on... it doesnt matter what the religious books says but what matters is what does its followers do.

 

[Developereo]

without defining the opposition how can one oppose it- using the proper name to denote any such movement or ideology is of paramount importance.

Easy.

It's a contest of ideas, not labels.

Ideas can be debated perfectly well without getting hung up about the labels.

 

[muse]

Identifying in private is one thing; blaring it from the loudspeakers is another.

I don't know what more you expect to achieve by naming specific countries and ideologies. Will it make our job of cleaning up Pakistan any easier? I dare say it will make it harder because the debate will be sidetracked by their defenders taking us to task and asking us to prove our claims. While we may win that debate, it will turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory for us by damaging our relations with the entire region. And, on the domestic front, the increased negativity surrounding the whole campaign will backfire on us.

Remember, we want a positive campaign: Pakistan is a beacon of safety and opportunity for all its citizens, regardless of their religion, and we cherish our ethnic, linguistic and religious diversity.

Keep it simple.

What would be the point of identifying it in private? I thought you wanted to teach Pakistanis what Islam is and is not - further you argue that we would be harming our relations with an entire region - this is both hyperbole and alarmist - what you in essence argue is that to defend yourself, if it will upset your oppressors is not good policy - it's an entirely abhorrent suggestion.

I'm with you on the need to keep it simple, I just could not be a party to a any suggestion that we not defend ourselves because it will be upsetting those who support terrorists against us - this is one of the reasons that these absolute nobodys' today imagine that they will burn our house down.

Now, I think I know what you are suggesting, but I do encourage you to consider whether the toady obsequious approach is one that can help us defeat extremism and sectarianism --
b

 

[Dillinger]

Easy.

It's a contest of ideas, not labels.

Ideas can be debated perfectly well without getting hung up about the labels.

Pakistan's war is no longer confined within the boundaries of ideology- for decades now it has seeped into politics and now finally into mob and terrorist violence. Any holistic effort will have to confront such elements in all these spheres decisively. So while labels may be avoided in the battle of ideas, it would be a losing proposition to extend the same logic to the whole situation at hand.

And even ideas need to be defined and codified to a certain extent, if you wish to counter-indoctrinate then you must have a firm base and a clearly cut out nemesis which will require a certain amount of "labeling"- unfortunate as that may be.

 

[EXPERIMENT]

Tell me about it. !!

Mass Murder of Dalits: Ethnic Cleansing in South Asia - Salem-News.Com

crime against dalits: Latest News Stories, Photos, Videos, Blogs & Talks

All your thankers are stupid. two wrongs......

 

[Developereo]

What would be the point of identifying it in private? I thought you wanted to teach Pakistanis what Islam is and is not - further you argue that we would be harming our relations with an entire region - this is both hyperbole and alarmist - what you in essence argue is that to defend yourself, if it will upset your oppressors is not good policy - it's an entirely abhorrent suggestion.

I'm with you on the need to keep it simple, I just could not be a party to a any suggestion that we not defend ourselves because it will be upsetting those who support terrorists against us - this is one of the reasons that these absolute nobodys' today imagine that they will burn our house down.

Now, I think I know what you are suggesting, but I do encourage you to consider whether the toady obsequious approach is one that can help us defeat extremism and sectarianism --
b

What I meant is that, in private, we can tighten the screws on anything coming from certain regions which we have identified as problem spots, but there is no need to make it a public battle. When the screws are tightened, the relevant parties will get the message just fine.

The public face of the campaign must remain focused on the positive aspect.

Pakistan's war is no longer confined within the boundaries of ideology- for decades now it has seeped into politics and now finally into mob and terrorist violence. Any holistic effort will have to confront such elements in all these spheres decisively. So while labels may be avoided in the battle of ideas, it would be a losing proposition to extend the same logic to the whole situation at hand.

And even ideas need to be defined and codified to a certain extent, if you wish to counter-indoctrinate then you must have a firm base and a clearly cut out nemesis which will require a certain amount of "labeling"- unfortunate as that may be.

Not at all.

We can tell people that Pakistaniat (and Islam) consists of respecting all varieties of Islam and other faiths. We can tell them that anything to the contrary is unIslamic and unPakistani.

That's all people need to know. If some foreign country tries to preach otherwise, we can outlaw it simply because it violates the above rules, not because of where it originates or whatever else it preaches. As explained above, privately we can go after the perpetrators but, publicly, the positivity must reign supreme.

 

[muse]

Ok so I can buy in to that certainly that is explained better -- Now lets move on to this "Pakistaniyat" - what is this? and how do state organs(Army) fit into this? How are the Madressah crew to be dealt with? How do we avoid that from being public, especially if the madressah crew appeal to their patrons? And what if the Army's Corps commanders are persuaded that the Wahabi line is something they will not give up?

 

[EXPERIMENT]

These Wahabi are too big for their own boots - to themselves they are ten feet tall, in reality they serve a master who is not interested in being served defeat - this is why most Pakistanis do not understand the importance of sustain Syria, it's not that Mr.Assad is a great guy, but rather that should the Wahabi terrorists succeed there, the next victim of the Wahabi may well be Pakistan . Develepero's point of nuance is certainly one we should be cognizant of - but in Pakistan, we still can and ought, to ensure that even if Syria ends up a success for the Wahabai terrorists, Pakistan may not be.

I perceive myself to be fairly astute in GeoPol . However I do find that I am scratching my head on Assad.
I find that it may be near impossible to support the FSA as far as the current evidence presents itself.

My opinion: The FSA is going to be worse then even Assad's people could ever imagine.

 

[muse]

I perceive myself to be fairly astute in GeoPol . However I do find that I am scratching my head on Assad. I find that it may be near impossible to support the FSA as far as the current evidence presents itself.
My opinion: The FSA is going to be worse then even Assad's people could ever imagine.

Of course - The US effort is leave behind a ME that is going to be burned hulk - these Wahabi think that once they help the US to destroy the real countries, that these Monarchies may be allowed to survive, it's wishful thinking.

 

[EXPERIMENT]

Of course - The US effort is leave behind a ME that is going to be burned hulk - these Wahabi think that once they help the US to destroy the real countries, that these Monarchies may be allowed to survive, it's wishful thinking.

Leave aside ME and religion.

So what? You and I know it.
To be honest I do not give a flying fcuk(about the ME status at this time). Hearing your opinion on improvement in Pakistan is more important.

And even more important is the fact that the stupid does not spill into Pakistan. I know it has been spilling already.
Unfortunately
I dedicate my words to not having a stupid neighbour. Else only violence will prevail.
People like us do not want that.

 

[Developereo]

Now lets move on to this "Pakistaniyat" - what is this?

Pakistan is a beacon of safety and opportunity for all its citizens, regardless of their religion, and we cherish our ethnic, linguistic and religious diversity.

Keep it simple.

and how do state organs(Army) fit into this? How are the Madressah crew to be dealt with? How do we avoid that from being public, especially if the madressah crew appeal to their patrons? And what if the Army's Corps commanders are persuaded that the Wahabi line is something they will not give up?

I don't believe the army will interfere with a positive public media campaign and school curricula refit. The army's entire approach, even during these waves of terrorism and other problems, has been hands off. The army is giving maximum rope to the democratic civilian administration to hang itself by its own incompetence while the army says, "this is democracy, you wanted it, here it is".

As for the madrassas, again, they are just the foot soldiers. Our real enemy are the political elite who support these madrassas and, once again, it will have to be the media's job to highlight any politician who opposes the message of inclusiveness.

Bottom line, nothing can succeed unless the national media cooperates to name and shame individuals obstructing the positive message.

 

[Dubious]

Bang on... it doesnt matter what the religious books says but what matters is what does its followers do.

@KS @GoodBoy

Phir tou larai kabhi nai rukay gi....Even when RELIGIOUS books say dont fight, the believers fight and the non believers believing it is in the book are laughed at as a joke and the circle turns on and the cycle continues....