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All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month!!!!!!!!

FINALLY :tup::tup::tup::tup::tup::tup::tup:. You guys wait for a few more years and the next top line jet "Javier" will be out. Then Rafale would look like a Mig-21 in-front of the "Javier" :rofl: (by the way, the "J" of the name Javier is pronounced as the "H")!!

Man, this is good news. I was 10 when I started hearing about this jet called Rafale going to India. Then the Brits did the east India company, and then there were wars and then India became free from the Britts and like 70 years after, guess what??? The RAFALE is coming :rofl: :enjoy:

Btw, I wrote the story with a light heart to make you guys smile. So SMILE. Good development, would love to this puppy being flown along with the SU-30's (and would like to know who's the real daddy in simulated combat) :tup:

Exactly in 2012 it was made public that Raffy has won the MMRCA contract and at that time u were 10 means now u r 15-16 only and u r a senior member.:o:
Pathetic PDF and Pathetic american teen.:hitwall:
Now kiddo gonna discuss Strategic issues Awesome!!!!! :pakistan:
 
Exactly in 2012 it was made public that Raffy has won the MMRCA contract and at that time u were 10 means now u r 15-16 only and u r a senior member.:o:
Pathetic PDF and Pathetic american teen.:hitwall:
Now kiddo gonna discuss Strategic issues Awesome!!!!! :pakistan:

He may be referring to when RFI was issued in 2004. Now he should be 21
 
My prediction:

Navy:

F-35Cs, RAFALE-Ms & MIG-29s to be the mainstay while NLCA would be an insurance.

AF:

FGFAs, RAFALEs & SU-30MKIs to be the mainstay while LCA Mk2 would be an insurance.

AMCA would wait until there is clarity on the ToT and MII components along with the Indian Partners identified for F-35C, FGFA and RAFALE.

@anant_s @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @knight11

Thanks for tagging me. In one line you can win the battle with the imported fighter plane but not the war.
LCA would to fill the numbers, and LCA MK2 should be consider to Chinese J-10 both will form the bulk in future.

Now coming to your question, F-35Cs seems difficult due to boundation of CISMOA.
RAFALE M seems good choice, if India could get EMALS without F-35.

NLCA MK2 I think would help Navy to get confidence and give ADA the knowledge over which Naval AMCA could be made in future.

My prediction India would emerge as a big aero manufacturer with HAL and many private company, and Naval AMCA will come for sure with 30+ Rafale-M.
 
Thanks for tagging me. In one line you can win the battle with the imported fighter plane but not the war.
LCA would to fill the numbers, and LCA MK2 should be consider to Chinese J-10 both will form the bulk in future.

Now coming to your question, F-35Cs seems difficult due to boundation of CISMOA.
RAFALE M seems good choice, if India could get EMALS without F-35.

NLCA MK2 I think would help Navy to get confidence and give ADA the knowledge over which Naval AMCA could be made in future.

My prediction India would emerge as a big aero manufacturer with HAL and many private company, and Naval AMCA will come for sure with 30+ Rafale-M.

I do not think US would entertain request for EMALS without F-35Cs. They would come as a package. Also, DTTI would require India signing the foundational agreements.

I agree and believe that NLCA & LCA Mk2 are more critical than AMCA. AMCA would be built on successful foundations of LCA MK2.
 
I'm not saying Rafale is not good, it triple the price we get Su35. Do you think Rafale can Hunt down Su35 bro?

With good tactics, even Mig-21 could hunt down Su-35.

Tagged at 250 millions each, How rich India is!

Can Rafale field against J20? I think the answer is no?

J-20 will take a decade to get ready, and it is not meant for India, rather for the chinese strategy of AD access Denial policy over south china sea, so that US could not use its F-35 and growler to supress S-300, HQ-9 Batteries.

When it come to fighter jets crash, no one could stand any where nearby IAF. Sorry Su35 is for Japan, not India. As their pilotes will piss on their pant when they see Su series fighter.

Whet it comes to fighter jets IAF comes to very experienced, and very high training hour airforce. In case of Chinese, they have less experience of war than the PAF, and their jet crash is not in public domain.

SU-35 shows how people makes the Chinese 11 feet tall. With 2 fifth generation program, she is still buying 4+ generation fighter plane from Russia or in another word, they want Russian Radar tech of Su-35, but Russian linked that with the Su-35 Sale.

I'm just saying Rafale is too expensive in its class.

Do you any knowledge of the economics of Fly away Cost, and the total cost of acquasition. French Mirrage 2000 was very expensive than Mig-29 but in long run its cheaper than Mig-29.
 
Exactly in 2012 it was made public that Raffy has won the MMRCA contract and at that time u were 10 means now u r 15-16 only and u r a senior member.

Or it was humour? Check :
I was 10 when I started hearing about this jet called Rafale going to India. Then the Brits [founded] the East India company, and then there were wars and then India became free from the Brits and like 70 years after, guess what??? The RAFALE is coming ...

Unless French claims that Ader invented aviation are actually modest by nearly 300 years,
which would be surprising 'cause, let's face it, we're not that humble a bunch, out of character,
I'm pretty convinced that was a tongue-in-cheek narrative by Viper.
Another clue is that he said as much himself in that very same post?

I'm only surprised Dadeechi got caught too and answered you. :confused:

Just sayin' Tay
 
Shall we get the final agreement and then talk ?
It's confirmed now. Actually it supposed to take place during pm visit to France last time recently. But new hurdles for reinvestment negotiations played the spoiler and France agreed to take part in Republic day Parade chief guest. What's more better timing to sign this strategic deal than this.

Do you remember Russians played spoiler till now to alert deal with France? AND THIS DEAL RIGHTLY CONCLUDED AFTER PM Modi visit to Moscow. It's all clear now.

Don't go crazy . 36 at this stage and possibly +18 is the final count for Rafale in indian military . Since more than that will jeopardize our indigenous fighter program for next two decades .
No problem this deal could play as multiplier along with 50 Mirage upgraded to its teeth. Do you see the picture?
 
Source based info

  • Support package price may force India to drop Meteor and use Astra Mk1 Mk2 as primary BVR weapons (with MICA)
  • IAF has asked MOD to specifically put a clause in IGA for French Side to guarantee that at any point of time during the whole service period of Rafales with IAF, at least 90% of the fleet should be fit for combat. (wartime and peacetime both)
  • This seems to suggest we have learned a tough lesson from MKI issues for want of spares and critical localisation.
  • French side and Dassault says such a high number will require lots of localisation and support services to be based in India for which a substantial investment is needed. Their guarantee was 80%+ at war time.
  • MOD said a "substantial fleet" will be purchased to provide comfort for the "substantial investment" but guarantee clause is 90% availability at all times.
  • The localisation and inhouse spare and major repair hub in India is desired for ensuring this high number and will become benchmark for future acquisition
  • This is the major clause which required repeated negotiations as the substantial fleet wording seems to suggest MOD has clearly given the indication to French side what number they are looking at.
  • Also localisation, spares, services, major repair hub all indicate towards the inevitable long run target of a line in India.
@Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay
 
Also localisation, spares, services, major repair hub all indicate towards the inevitable long run target of a line in India.
Absolutely.
India is now committed to Rafale and now it is becoming clear that final fleet size will probably be in vicinity of 10-12 squadrons.
And with this vision, IAF can now plan for future with clarity.
 
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Source based info

  • Support package price may force India to drop Meteor and use Astra Mk1 Mk2 as primary BVR weapons (with MICA)
  • IAF has asked MOD to specifically put a clause in IGA for French Side to guarantee that at any point of time during the whole service period of Rafales with IAF, at least 90% of the fleet should be fit for combat. (wartime and peacetime both)
  • This seems to suggest we have learned a tough lesson from MKI issues for want of spares and critical localisation.
  • French side and Dassault says such a high number will require lots of localisation and support services to be based in India for which a substantial investment is needed. Their guarantee was 80%+ at war time.
  • MOD said a "substantial fleet" will be purchased to provide comfort for the "substantial investment" but guarantee clause is 90% availability at all times.
  • The localisation and inhouse spare and major repair hub in India is desired for ensuring this high number and will become benchmark for future acquisition
  • This is the major clause which required repeated negotiations as the substantial fleet wording seems to suggest MOD has clearly given the indication to French side what number they are looking at.
  • Also localisation, spares, services, major repair hub all indicate towards the inevitable long run target of a line in India.
@Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay

The numbers were always given. A few kept saying, it will be restricted. But, think about it logically, what was happening

1. Even though MMRCA contest was cancelled, the MoD focused on Rafale. The PM made a public commitment to buy Rafale.
2. At no point of time did the French panic on losing the order. They kept at the negotiations.
3. A company of the scale of Reliance was getting committed. Anybody, who follows Reliance knows they do not do anything in small scale.
4. The IAF was pretty clear they needed the fighters in numbers. With the experience with Mirage 2000s, they were happy with the Rafale.

Making a separate requirement to make up numbers, would have been not just a logistical problem but an negotiating nightmare.

Having said the above, this deal will make India the biggest operator of Rafale outside France. The 200 number, I heard during some conversation, suddenly seems a distinct possibility. If the availability clause is true, then its a HUGE bonus for Indian manufacturers. We can actually operate as a secondary maintenance hub for Dassault to start with. The experience gained for our domestic players will be huge.
 
If the availability clause is true, then its a HUGE bonus for Indian manufacturers. We can actually operate as a secondary maintenance hub for Dassault to start with. The experience gained for our domestic players will be huge.

Bravo Surya mate! Someone had to understand and clearly re-state this.
The 80-90% guarantee is on support and spares obviously. This may seem bad in comparison to the
MMRCA "blunderful" requirement that Dassault backs HAL production but it's really anything but!

Indeed, between an impossible commitment forcing the buyer to start looking for loopholes before the
ink on the contract has dried and a supply environment entirely located in India, GoI chose wisely.
Instead of trying to teach HAL to work harder, since the Rafales delivered will be the real McCoy from
Mérignac, Dassault will have to concentrate on supply chain management which their history shows
that they have down pat. How to is part of ToT, logically, and the results directly impact the IAF.
The important thing is that the training produces a new quality workforce of Bharatis, ( mindset included ).

This may still be hard for many to grasp but screwdriver ToT has a utility initially ...
- if the screwdriving activity was hitherto unknown to the local industry;
- if next time/deal, you get taught the next level, say electric screwdriving,;
- if the trained personnel stays home and can transfer their screw driving skills
and work attitude to another high tech job or take over from OEM in fine.

End result of excessive MMRCA demands : HAL and Dassault exchanging excuses and fanboys, birdcalls.
End result of what was described above : learning to maintain supply chains, period!
With the added bonus that in the first case, IAF Rafales' availability is a tad better than that of MKIs, in
the second, it will be on par with that of Armée de l'Air.

Oh! And hidden bonus for the taking : Just do the Chinese thing already and make a copy of that supply line.
At some point, why not admit that a copy of a Ferrari with 80% of the OEM quality is still better than a TATA ...
and just flocking run with your loot?

BTW, I wonder how these contract terms if confirmed compare to past ones in the field. If someone follows
the industry side of mil avia procurements, there's a research here. List deals with such high demands from
whichever manufacturer in history and then check results in our Raffy case as they come by those metrics.
I wonder who stands on the podium of all time best fulfilment of fighter orders with full support?
The answer might surprise us!

Great day all and please, do your meditation or take your medication!!!
The last days of such a saga are like the last miles of a giant trek or raid,
elation and fatigue compound one another to make you berserk out, Tay.
 
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Source based info

  • Support package price may force India to drop Meteor and use Astra Mk1 Mk2 as primary BVR weapons (with MICA)
  • IAF has asked MOD to specifically put a clause in IGA for French Side to guarantee that at any point of time during the whole service period of Rafales with IAF, at least 90% of the fleet should be fit for combat. (wartime and peacetime both)
  • This seems to suggest we have learned a tough lesson from MKI issues for want of spares and critical localisation.
  • French side and Dassault says such a high number will require lots of localisation and support services to be based in India for which a substantial investment is needed. Their guarantee was 80%+ at war time.
  • MOD said a "substantial fleet" will be purchased to provide comfort for the "substantial investment" but guarantee clause is 90% availability at all times.
  • The localisation and inhouse spare and major repair hub in India is desired for ensuring this high number and will become benchmark for future acquisition
  • This is the major clause which required repeated negotiations as the substantial fleet wording seems to suggest MOD has clearly given the indication to French side what number they are looking at.
  • Also localisation, spares, services, major repair hub all indicate towards the inevitable long run target of a line in India.
@Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay


90% availability will create a huge base of spare parts and services. This could be huge for manufacturing and make in India. Thousands of jobs, directly and indirectly will be created. I say go for it even if it costs us a little bit more, benefits will outweigh costs.

@PARIKRAMA , MOD would not opt for this is the numbers of Rafale were small, not much benefit. In fact it would drive up the cost big time. This only assures what we have been saying all along, we will eat a lot of French fries :lol:

France currently has 140 Rafales and will take delivery of another 85 with a total of 225 committed
 
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90% availability will create a huge base of spare parts and services. This could be huge for manufacturing and make in India. Thousands of jobs, directly and indirectly will be created. I say go for it even if it costs us a little bit more, benefits will outweigh costs.

@PARIKRAMA , MOD would not opt for this is the numbers of Rafale were small, not much benefit. In fact it would drive up the cost big time. This only assures what we have been saying all along, we will eat a lot of French fries :lol:

France currently has 140 Rafales and will take delivery of another 85 with a total of 225 committed

Well, i said its source based information... i am happy that Manu Pubby also got a similar news and in Economic times he posted an article on Rafale with 90% requirement. Now i hope this turns out true. This has serious implications you know

1. The 90% availability clause of course points to a line for sustainable ecosystem to support such a number
2. Such a number effectively increases the overall IAF fleet availability percentage which i am sure IAF planners were assuming at around 66%+ war time to a much higher level by at least around 7-10% percentage points based on numbers.
3. This may also prove to be a counter productive in case IAF plans a limited fleet of say just 80-90 raffy bcz the investment made for such a ecosystem will go to waste

What i am more worried is besides MKI, LCA, Raffy post 2030 the other two projects FGFA and later AMCA may have issues of first delay and second bench marking on availability. A stealth jet at 75% availability is a respectable number especially as they do require higher turn around time owing to extensive RAM coating like ops. This clearly implies MKI and LCA at 75-80% and Raffy at 90% availability becomes a very important factor in terms of fleet availability and numbers at any given time.

The overall IAF fleet will inch towards first 75% availability and then towards 77% and finally towards 80% at war time ops.
This implies we dont need very humongous numbers for fleet. Eg
IAF 1000 Jets 66% availability war time = 660
at 70% availability war time = 700

Compare to say IAF fleet 800 jets
77% availability = 616
80% availability = 640

In practical sense this allows a higher spending on quality of jets for a limited fleet which serves our purpose as good as a much larger fleet at lower availability.

I am happy that DM MP might have realized this point and is now working overtime to ensure this logic is applied properly. This could potentially change the way we are looking at IAF fleet post 2030 surely.

But this will require a sustainable effort for local ecosystem to support all our fleet members right from MKI to LCA to Raffy to FGFA to AMCA. Its not a 1 year plan but rather it would take may be a 5-10 years to fully see the benefit. Hope Planners are looking into this..
 
I know what the IAF has. I just wrote a light post, but good thing finally getting done to say the least :enjoy:


What you wrote was funny. Indian military fans have already spent good part of their life waiting for this deal to become final. I hope this is THE final among all "finals" for our Indian friends. The small problem is now their new Rafales will have to face totally different enemy fighters than they were purchased for in the first place.

Congratulations to Indian friends, nevertheless, for this monumental achievement.
 
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