All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month!!!!!!!!

[PARIKRAMA]

Source based info

• Support package price may force India to drop Meteor and use Astra Mk1 Mk2 as primary BVR weapons (with MICA)
• IAF has asked MOD to specifically put a clause in IGA for French Side to guarantee that at any point of time during the whole service period of Rafales with IAF, at least 90% of the fleet should be fit for combat. (wartime and peacetime both)
• This seems to suggest we have learned a tough lesson from MKI issues for want of spares and critical localisation.
• French side and Dassault says such a high number will require lots of localisation and support services to be based in India for which a substantial investment is needed. Their guarantee was 80%+ at war time.
• MOD said a "substantial fleet" will be purchased to provide comfort for the "substantial investment" but guarantee clause is 90% availability at all times.
• The localisation and inhouse spare and major repair hub in India is desired for ensuring this high number and will become benchmark for future acquisition
• This is the major clause which required repeated negotiations as the substantial fleet wording seems to suggest MOD has clearly given the indication to French side what number they are looking at.
• Also localisation, spares, services, major repair hub all indicate towards the inevitable long run target of a line in India.

@Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay

See this news latest from ndtv

Why India's Deal For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets Is Still Being Negotiated
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som | Updated: January 14, 2016 16:22 IST

The twin-engine Rafale combat jet is designed from the beginning as a multi-role fighter for air-to-air and air-to-ground attack, is nuclear-capable.

NEW DELHI: With just days to go before French President Francois Hollande arrives in India, a crucial deal for Delhi to buy 36 French-built Rafale warplanes has not yet been decided.

Speaking to Reuters today, the French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said that the deal remains evasive, underscoring the considerable differences between negotiators for both sides, nearly nine months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited Paris and announced the plans to buy the fighter jets directly from the French government following the collapse of a larger commercial deal with Dassault Aviation.

NDTV has learned that the all-in price is likely to be in the range of 65,000 crores or nearly $10 billion, which includes the cost of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition, weapon systems, and a support maintenance package. India still needs to decide whether it will immediately fund a large order of all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or ten years. Both sides are also in talks on the financial penalties the French manufacturer of the jet would incur for unsatisfactory performance - that is, if the Rafale is not available at least 90 per cent of the time that it is required to fly a sortie. This is a key concern for the Indian Air Force since its frontline Russian-designed Sukhoi 30 MKI jet has an abysmal availability rate of under 60 per cent, which means the air force doesn't have enough Sukhois operational when it needs them. India has also still not finalized the total number and exact type of weapon systems that would come with the Rafale - a key component of the overall cost of the package.

President Hollande arrives will be in India from January 25 to 27 (he lands in Chandigarh and will be the Chief Guest at the Republic Day parade).

New rules in India state that defence deals over 300 crores must be accompanied by investing 30 per cent of the value of the contract in manufacturing in India. France has reportedly agreed in principle to that stipulation "in the future", a move that has helped both sides side-step this potentially contentious requirement for the moment.

Indian military officials have warned their air force risks a major capability gap with China and Pakistan without new western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot produce what the military needs in a timely manner. In October, the government turned down the military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 Dassault-built fighter planes to plug vital gaps, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane.

Cockpit of the Dassault Rafale fighter

It could take more than a year for India to actually start acquiring the Rafale jets once the contract is signed since manufacturer Dassault is already constructing the state-of-the-art fighter for the French Air Force and Egypt and Qatar which have recently signed contracts to acquire the planes. However, France has reportedly offered to help India, a strategic partner, acquire the jets as early as possible though it is unclear whether that would mean the French Air Force deferring acquisition of its own Rafale fighters or, alternately, loaning India a handful of fighters it already has in service till Dassault is ready to deliver the Rafales ordered by Delhi.

Why India's Deal For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets Is Still Being Negotiated
++++++++++++

@Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @knight11 @Vauban @Taygibay
My source news about 90% availability is bang on target..5-10 years spare i think is too short for 40 years service life so all are hinting for a ecosystem development which means local production has to be done to sustain the benefits..

Even though the article is a bit somber for want of signing stuff but i still feel IGA is a done deal.

The costs would come down too as weapons package is being reduced a bit.. I also feel Meteor will be given a miss to bring costs down a bit and later procured separately.

its clear the whole cost seems a clear cut lifetime cost for 40 years as the wording is "jets in fly-away condition, weapon systems, and a support maintenance package" It will be interesting if we could get a division to understand flyaway cost, weapons cost and support maintenance cost.

Also DPP 2016 applicability is clearly hinted.

and in reuter here it is
Google Translate

Burst-Signature next with India not excluded-Le Drian
PARIS, Jan. 14 (Reuters) - The signing of the sale to India of 36 Rafale combat aircraft during the visit of Francois Hollande in late January in New Delhi is not ruled out but not yet certain, said Thursday the Minister French Defense on BFM TV.

"I never anticipated this kind of thing," said Jean-Yves Le Drian. "I hope it can be done. It is not impossible but it is not officially recorded."

India is negotiating a new option to its firm order for 36 aircraft Dassault Aviation Rafale valued at 9.1 billion dollars, does one source close to the dossier.

The contract is "politically ready" to be signed during the visit of Francois Hollande held from 25 to 27 January, however, say Indian government source. (Emmanuel Jarry, edited by Jean-Michel Belot)

 

[anant_s]

See this news latest from ndtv

Why India's Deal For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets Is Still Being Negotiated
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som | Updated: January 14, 2016 16:22 IST

The twin-engine Rafale combat jet is designed from the beginning as a multi-role fighter for air-to-air and air-to-ground attack, is nuclear-capable.

NEW DELHI: With just days to go before French President Francois Hollande arrives in India, a crucial deal for Delhi to buy 36 French-built Rafale warplanes has not yet been decided.

Speaking to Reuters today, the French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said that the deal remains evasive, underscoring the considerable differences between negotiators for both sides, nearly nine months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited Paris and announced the plans to buy the fighter jets directly from the French government following the collapse of a larger commercial deal with Dassault Aviation.

NDTV has learned that the all-in price is likely to be in the range of 65,000 crores or nearly $10 billion, which includes the cost of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition, weapon systems, and a support maintenance package. India still needs to decide whether it will immediately fund a large order of all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or ten years. Both sides are also in talks on the financial penalties the French manufacturer of the jet would incur for unsatisfactory performance - that is, if the Rafale is not available at least 90 per cent of the time that it is required to fly a sortie. This is a key concern for the Indian Air Force since its frontline Russian-designed Sukhoi 30 MKI jet has an abysmal availability rate of under 60 per cent, which means the air force doesn't have enough Sukhois operational when it needs them. India has also still not finalized the total number and exact type of weapon systems that would come with the Rafale - a key component of the overall cost of the package.

President Hollande arrives will be in India from January 25 to 27 (he lands in Chandigarh and will be the Chief Guest at the Republic Day parade).

New rules in India state that defence deals over 300 crores must be accompanied by investing 30 per cent of the value of the contract in manufacturing in India. France has reportedly agreed in principle to that stipulation "in the future", a move that has helped both sides side-step this potentially contentious requirement for the moment.

Indian military officials have warned their air force risks a major capability gap with China and Pakistan without new western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot produce what the military needs in a timely manner. In October, the government turned down the military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 Dassault-built fighter planes to plug vital gaps, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane.

Cockpit of the Dassault Rafale fighter

It could take more than a year for India to actually start acquiring the Rafale jets once the contract is signed since manufacturer Dassault is already constructing the state-of-the-art fighter for the French Air Force and Egypt and Qatar which have recently signed contracts to acquire the planes. However, France has reportedly offered to help India, a strategic partner, acquire the jets as early as possible though it is unclear whether that would mean the French Air Force deferring acquisition of its own Rafale fighters or, alternately, loaning India a handful of fighters it already has in service till Dassault is ready to deliver the Rafales ordered by Delhi.

Why India's Deal For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets Is Still Being Negotiated
++++++++++++

@Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @knight11 @Vauban @Taygibay
My source news about 90% availability is bang on target..5-10 years spare i think is too short for 40 years service life so all are hinting for a ecosystem development which means local production has to be done to sustain the benefits..

Even though the article is a bit somber for want of signing stuff but i still feel IGA is a done deal.

The costs would come down too as weapons package is being reduced a bit.. I also feel Meteor will be given a miss to bring costs down a bit and later procured separately.

its clear the whole cost seems a clear cut lifetime cost for 40 years as the wording is "jets in fly-away condition, weapon systems, and a support maintenance package" It will be interesting if we could get a division to understand flyaway cost, weapons cost and support maintenance cost.

Also DPP 2016 applicability is clearly hinted.

and in reuter here it is
Google Translate

Burst-Signature next with India not excluded-Le Drian
PARIS, Jan. 14 (Reuters) - The signing of the sale to India of 36 Rafale combat aircraft during the visit of Francois Hollande in late January in New Delhi is not ruled out but not yet certain, said Thursday the Minister French Defense on BFM TV.

"I never anticipated this kind of thing," said Jean-Yves Le Drian. "I hope it can be done. It is not impossible but it is not officially recorded."

India is negotiating a new option to its firm order for 36 aircraft Dassault Aviation Rafale valued at 9.1 billion dollars, does one source close to the dossier.

The contract is "politically ready" to be signed during the visit of Francois Hollande held from 25 to 27 January, however, say Indian government source. (Emmanuel Jarry, edited by Jean-Michel Belot)

I guess high availability requires creation of specialized maintenance facilities, training for artisans, spare inventory management which would be radically different from what IAF repair depots have till now.
Therefore high cost might actually account for guaranteed spare stock inventory at all times.
But considering that IAF wants a large fleet size, i think its a very wise thing to do.

 

[SR-91]

See this news latest from ndtv

Why India's Deal For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets Is Still Being Negotiated
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som | Updated: January 14, 2016 16:22 IST

The twin-engine Rafale combat jet is designed from the beginning as a multi-role fighter for air-to-air and air-to-ground attack, is nuclear-capable.

NEW DELHI: With just days to go before French President Francois Hollande arrives in India, a crucial deal for Delhi to buy 36 French-built Rafale warplanes has not yet been decided.

Speaking to Reuters today, the French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said that the deal remains evasive, underscoring the considerable differences between negotiators for both sides, nearly nine months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited Paris and announced the plans to buy the fighter jets directly from the French government following the collapse of a larger commercial deal with Dassault Aviation.

NDTV has learned that the all-in price is likely to be in the range of 65,000 crores or nearly $10 billion, which includes the cost of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition, weapon systems, and a support maintenance package. India still needs to decide whether it will immediately fund a large order of all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or ten years. Both sides are also in talks on the financial penalties the French manufacturer of the jet would incur for unsatisfactory performance - that is, if the Rafale is not available at least 90 per cent of the time that it is required to fly a sortie. This is a key concern for the Indian Air Force since its frontline Russian-designed Sukhoi 30 MKI jet has an abysmal availability rate of under 60 per cent, which means the air force doesn't have enough Sukhois operational when it needs them. India has also still not finalized the total number and exact type of weapon systems that would come with the Rafale - a key component of the overall cost of the package.

President Hollande arrives will be in India from January 25 to 27 (he lands in Chandigarh and will be the Chief Guest at the Republic Day parade).

New rules in India state that defence deals over 300 crores must be accompanied by investing 30 per cent of the value of the contract in manufacturing in India. France has reportedly agreed in principle to that stipulation "in the future", a move that has helped both sides side-step this potentially contentious requirement for the moment.

Indian military officials have warned their air force risks a major capability gap with China and Pakistan without new western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot produce what the military needs in a timely manner. In October, the government turned down the military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 Dassault-built fighter planes to plug vital gaps, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane.

Cockpit of the Dassault Rafale fighter

It could take more than a year for India to actually start acquiring the Rafale jets once the contract is signed since manufacturer Dassault is already constructing the state-of-the-art fighter for the French Air Force and Egypt and Qatar which have recently signed contracts to acquire the planes. However, France has reportedly offered to help India, a strategic partner, acquire the jets as early as possible though it is unclear whether that would mean the French Air Force deferring acquisition of its own Rafale fighters or, alternately, loaning India a handful of fighters it already has in service till Dassault is ready to deliver the Rafales ordered by Delhi.

Why India's Deal For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets Is Still Being Negotiated
++++++++++++

@Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @knight11 @Vauban @Taygibay
My source news about 90% availability is bang on target..5-10 years spare i think is too short for 40 years service life so all are hinting for a ecosystem development which means local production has to be done to sustain the benefits..

Even though the article is a bit somber for want of signing stuff but i still feel IGA is a done deal.

The costs would come down too as weapons package is being reduced a bit.. I also feel Meteor will be given a miss to bring costs down a bit and later procured separately.

its clear the whole cost seems a clear cut lifetime cost for 40 years as the wording is "jets in fly-away condition, weapon systems, and a support maintenance package" It will be interesting if we could get a division to understand flyaway cost, weapons cost and support maintenance cost.

Also DPP 2016 applicability is clearly hinted.

and in reuter here it is
Google Translate

Burst-Signature next with India not excluded-Le Drian
PARIS, Jan. 14 (Reuters) - The signing of the sale to India of 36 Rafale combat aircraft during the visit of Francois Hollande in late January in New Delhi is not ruled out but not yet certain, said Thursday the Minister French Defense on BFM TV.

"I never anticipated this kind of thing," said Jean-Yves Le Drian. "I hope it can be done. It is not impossible but it is not officially recorded."

India is negotiating a new option to its firm order for 36 aircraft Dassault Aviation Rafale valued at 9.1 billion dollars, does one source close to the dossier.

The contract is "politically ready" to be signed during the visit of Francois Hollande held from 25 to 27 January, however, say Indian government source. (Emmanuel Jarry, edited by Jean-Michel Belot)

@PARIKRAMA please do thank your source from all of us on PDF and thank u for sharing some very interesting and solid info with us.

Cheers yaar!!!!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I guess high availability requires creation of specialized maintenance facilities, training for artisans, spare inventory management which would be radically different from what IAF repair depots have till now.
Therefore high cost might actually account for guaranteed spare stock inventory at all times.
But considering that IAF wants a large fleet size, i think its a very wise thing to do.

But then again there is a small issue my friend..
If only we could have defined the following
1. Flyaway cost of Su 30 MKI
2. Weapons package cost
3. Support maintenance cost
4. Additional cost required to say have fleet availability at 90%+ from present 60% odd levels
5. Considering 40 years life cycle

This information if its given out will actually help compare apple to apple and once and for all .

For the time being people will look at Rs 358 crs MKI bird cost at Indian Nashik Plant and clear cut point out Rafale is costly.
But if we could have got the points 2-5 explanation from an official source or from a informed source, it could have very well be an eye opener to understand and justify the big figure we see here..

IMHO if we stop at anything like 36+18=54 or say around 80-90, we will be making a fool of ourselves with so much high investments and not reaping benefits with a much larger fleet. Hope sense and sanity prevails.

@PARIKRAMA please do thank your source from all of us on PDF and thank u for sharing some very interesting and solid info with us.

Cheers yaar!!!!

I have been chasing him to tell me the flyaway cost and cost of support package and actual cost of the deal.. He is keeping mum and saying confidential ..lol..

but he commented one thing.. IAF 189 jets were at 70%+ availability plan (wartime fleet availability was 66% earlier a decade back) implying 132 jets at wartime availability. This was based on a similar understanding as MKI was made to be available with a minor higher percentage point (approx 5-10% higher than MKI)

With 90% availability, this requirement is now just 150 jets against 189 earlier. Now if 54 comes from Merignac, the requirement comes down to 96 more perhaps under MII. Unless more beyond 189 is envisioned.

This is the smartest move of DM MP who made a cut of 39 jets by linking availability and saving precious cost upfront and ensuring higher efficiency.

 

[Taygibay]

Guys, Parik in particular, do calm down on that 90% thingie.

It cannot be fleet availability.​

Why is that impossible?
Because the manufacturer is not in control of the variables that lead to this number!

Think of it this way :
- If IAF grease monkeys don't work hard or well enough, or if they all get cholera and the flu and can't work ...
- If local parts and consumables are deleterious as in say, just for example, bad fuel ...
- If the cash flow doesn't cover lean manufacturing ( just-in-time production ) ...
- If IAF extreme flying causes supernatural rate of failure ...
- ETC. ...
then nothing the OEM can do will suffice to reach that lofty availability goal, period!
Let's go full Monty and imagine the contract required full fleet availability and the IAF
crashed 4 jets or lost them in combat, 32 ACs remaining would be below 90% [ 32.4 planes ].

That is just as ludicrous as the responsible for others' work asked for HAL in MMRCA.
No maker would ever sign that deal, no matter what the industrial field concerned!!!
What is likely the case here is 90% availability of spares. That can be done reasonably.

In general, any number mentioned in Bharat's consumer press is wrong until proven so!
Think of the 9B € cost of the deal when both Egypt & Qatar paid much less for theirs.
The only validity of that number is for show purposes : If you convinced your citizens that
9 hundred crore Euros was the quoted price and by the end the deal is signed for 5 instead ...
the govt can flaunt its negotiation powers for having halved the cost?

Just saying, Tay.

 

[AyanRay]

What you wrote was funny. Indian military fans have already spent good part of their life waiting for this deal to become final. I hope this is THE final among all "finals" for our Indian friends. The small problem is now their new Rafales will have to face totally different enemy fighters than they were purchased for in the first place.

Congratulations to Indian friends, nevertheless, for this monumental achievement.

The only difference is when Indian fanboys were waiting for this deal to go through for all this years, (right from the declaration of the tender, the tests, announcement of winner, negotiations etc), and the fanboys from neighboring country were busy celebrating the fact that the deal was getting delayed, IAF was procuring 250+ Su30 MKIs, Its home grown fighter jet was inducted and now entered production phase, India's navy inducted 1 aircraft carrier witg 45 Mig 29 KUB, which some naval fighter pilots claim to be better than Su30s, and in is in the process of inducting one more aircraft carrier.

And now we also have the Rafael deal.

 

[SR-91]

But then again there is a small issue my friend..
If only we could have defined the following
1. Flyaway cost of Su 30 MKI
2. Weapons package cost
3. Support maintenance cost
4. Additional cost required to say have fleet availability at 90%+ from present 60% odd levels
5. Considering 40 years life cycle

This information if its given out will actually help compare apple to apple and once and for all .

For the time being people will look at Rs 358 crs MKI bird cost at Indian Nashik Plant and clear cut point out Rafale is costly.
But if we could have got the points 2-5 explanation from an official source or from a informed source, it could have very well be an eye opener to understand and justify the big figure we see here..

IMHO if we stop at anything like 36+18=54 or say around 80-90, we will be making a fool of ourselves with so much high investments and not reaping benefits with a much larger fleet. Hope sense and sanity prevails.



I have been chasing him to tell me the flyaway cost and cost of support package and actual cost of the deal.. He is keeping mum and saying confidential ..lol..

but he commented one thing.. IAF 189 jets were at 70%+ availability plan (wartime fleet availability was 66% earlier a decade back) implying 132 jets at wartime availability. This was based on a similar understanding as MKI was made to be available with a minor higher percentage point (approx 5-10% higher than MKI)

With 90% availability, this requirement is now just 150 jets against 189 earlier. Now if 54 comes from Merignac, the requirement comes down to 96 more perhaps under MII. Unless more beyond 189 is envisioned.

This is the smartest move of DM MP who made a cut of 39 jets by linking availability and saving precious cost upfront and ensuring higher efficiency.

Get it outta him bro.

You know what I would LOVE to see? Imagine, French President signs the deal on Republic Day and hands over 2 RAFALES to IAF.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Guys, Parik in particular, do calm down on that 90% thingie.

It cannot be fleet availability.​

Why is that impossible?
Because the manufacturer is not in control of the variables that lead to this number!

Think of it this way :
- If IAF grease monkeys don't work hard or well enough, or if they all get cholera and the flu and can't work ...
- If local parts and consumables are deleterious as in say, just for example, bad fuel ...
- If the cash flow doesn't cover lean manufacturing ( just-in-time production ) ...
- If IAF extreme flying causes supernatural rate of failure ...
- ETC. ...
then nothing the OEM can do will suffice to reach that lofty availability goal, period!
Let's go full Monty and imagine the contract required full fleet availability and the IAF
crashed 4 jets or lost them in combat, 32 ACs remaining would be below 90% [ 32.4 planes ].

That is just as ludicrous as the responsible for others' work asked for HAL in MMRCA.
No maker would ever sign that deal, no matter what the industrial field concerned!!!
What is likely the case here is 90% availability of spares. That can be done reasonably.

In general, any number mentioned in Bharat's consumer press is wrong until proven so!
Think of the 9B € cost of the deal when both Egypt & Qatar paid much less for theirs.
The only validity of that number is for show purposes : If you convinced your citizens that
9 hundred crore Euros was the quoted price and by the end the deal is signed for 5 instead ...
the govt can flaunt its negotiation powers for having halved the cost?

Just saying, Tay.

My good Sir, there is a small catch here... i did talk to my source again (i know i am nagging him way too much...)

1. The availability figure is stipulated with finer conditions such as aircrafts available, aircrafts down with minor repairs, aircrafts down with major repairs.. Its not considering aircrafts lost due to any eventuality. So if IAF loses say 6 aircrafts and the numbers are down to 30 the applicability of 90% is on 30 not 36.
2. The consumables pre screening mechanisms and ATF already is under strict control for military jets. Yet this time, a special quality check parameter which is used by Fr AF and is recommended by Dassault is being considered. These pre sortie quality checks will be followed as per the guidelines to adhere to the availability aspect
3. Dassault are suppose to not only impart training to Pilots but in fact a certification course for IAF service crew in the the 2 bases housing the Major repair and overhauling center.
4. The spare angle is infact the reason bcz of which IAF will procure a 5-10 years spares and establish the supporting OEM in our Indian ecosystem to sustain the smooth ops for rest 30 years for a total of 40 years of service
5. Also all these spares will have a regular quality check audit by Dassault authorised people to ensure they have sufficient quality storage , proper shelf life and without any issues. In case if a fault is found in the audit or in storage process, a suitable batch has to be replaced by a new purchase and old ones being disposed.
6. oh about extreme flying there is a clause of 6000 hours or 40 years or 150 hours a year assurance. when that macro is breached a re certification is required for the availability clause applicability

About the cost it looks like this
Jets cost approx = $7 Bn
Jets = 54
Weapons package = $ 2.1
Package includes flyaway cost+ training+spares+maintenance+support cost+ Comprehensive coverage defined under Total cost of ownership
Total cost = $ 9.1 Bn
Offset = 30% = $ 2.73 Bn
So actual cost to India = $6.37 bn
Further break up
Per Jet cost = $118 Mn (includes everything as defined above)

He says the finalization of the price can be +/-5 % to what approximation he has given as of today. If tomo scenario changes with addition or deletions, numbers would change.

Also he said in his opinion such numbers upfront with large spares indicates a strategic purpose of these jets rather than tactical.

++
I am sure Tay, Dassault wont sign unless they had done a good research to see what can be included for guaranteed part and will insist upfront procurement of necessary support items for this purpose..

 

[sathya]

My good Sir, there is a small catch here... i did talk to my source again (i know i am nagging him way too much...)

1. The availability figure is stipulated with finer conditions such as aircrafts available, aircrafts down with minor repairs, aircrafts down with major repairs.. Its not considering aircrafts lost due to any eventuality. So if IAF loses say 6 aircrafts and the numbers are down to 30 the applicability of 90% is on 30 not 36.
2. The consumables pre screening mechanisms and ATF already is under strict control for military jets. Yet this time, a special quality check parameter which is used by Fr AF and is recommended by Dassault is being considered. These pre sortie quality checks will be followed as per the guidelines to adhere to the availability aspect
3. Dassault are suppose to not only impart training to Pilots but in fact a certification course for IAF service crew in the the 2 bases housing the Major repair and overhauling center.
4. The spare angle is infact the reason bcz of which IAF will procure a 5-10 years spares and establish the supporting OEM in our Indian ecosystem to sustain the smooth ops for rest 30 years for a total of 40 years of service
5. Also all these spares will have a regular quality check audit by Dassault authorised people to ensure they have sufficient quality storage , proper shelf life and without any issues. In case if a fault is found in the audit or in storage process, a suitable batch has to be replaced by a new purchase and old ones being disposed.
6. oh about extreme flying there is a clause of 6000 hours or 40 years or 150 hours a year assurance. when that macro is breached a re certification is required for the availability clause applicability

About the cost it looks like this
Jets cost approx = $7 Bn
Jets = 54
Weapons package = $ 2.1
Package includes flyaway cost+ training+spares+maintenance+support cost+ Comprehensive coverage defined under Total cost of ownership
Total cost = $ 9.1 Bn
Offset = 30% = $ 2.73 Bn
So actual cost to India = $6.37 bn
Further break up
Per Jet cost = $118 Mn (includes everything as defined above)

He says the finalization of the price can be +/-5 % to what approximation he has given as of today. If tomo scenario changes with addition or deletions, numbers would change.

Also he said in his opinion such numbers upfront with large spares indicates a strategic purpose of these jets rather than tactical.

++
I am sure Tay, Dassault wont sign unless they had done a good research to see what can be included for guaranteed part and will insist upfront procurement of necessary support items for this purpose..

Offset only 30 % not 50 % ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Offset only 30 % not 50 % ?

Bro source says so.. In fact the way he said its no more 36 firm +18 options but rather all 54 firm...
I think in leeway for concessions, TOT to LCA and higher availability clause, this was allowed.. and In DPP 2016 also its 30% only..

We may see a Reuters/Bloomberg news in next 2-3 days confirming this development or rubbishing it completely..

Some pointers indicate NSA Doval is in Paris for carrying some specific message and a related document set.. But still no information available to collaborate that too..

 

[Chanakyaa]

Bro source says so.. In fact the way he said its no more 36 firm +18 options but rather all 54 firm...
I think in leeway for concessions, TOT to LCA and higher availability clause, this was allowed.. and In DPP 2016 also its 30% only..

We may see a Reuters/Bloomberg news in next 2-3 days confirming this development or rubbishing it completely..

Some pointers indicate NSA Doval is in Paris for carrying some specific message and a related document set.. But still no information available to collaborate that too..

I wish there was an "Auto Thank" feature where as soon as a Post was made by parikrama, "Thank" was made automatically.

Loved ur Data.

 

[Abingdonboy]

For the time being people will look at Rs 358 crs MKI bird cost at Indian Nashik Plant and clear cut point out Rafale is costly.
But if we could have got the points 2-5 explanation from an official source or from a informed source, it could have very well be an eye opener to understand and justify the big figure we see here..

You've hit the nail on the head there bro and taken all the wind out of the sails from the "MKI is cheaper so we should go for more MKIs instead of costly Rafale" group.

It has NEVER been a fair fight vis a vis the MKI vs Rafale comparison for a number of reasons- true costs being elusive being just one of them. Addtionally the Rafale and MKI are entirely different role aircraft- the MKI cannot do everything the Rafale can do (namely deep penetration low level strike missions) and vice versa (super manoeuvrability of the MKI is perhaps second only to the F-22 and the MKI has incredible internal fuel capacity).

That said, the IAF WILL have a true sense of how much each aircraft costs and their relative strengths and is STILL pushing for vast numbers of the Rafale- I think that says it all really.

Get it outta him bro.

You know what I would LOVE to see? Imagine, French President signs the deal on Republic Day and hands over 2 RAFALES to IAF.

Well that 100% isn't goint to happen

Per Jet cost = $118 Mn (includes everything as defined above)

Which is basically the same price as the latest tranch of MKIs for the IAF.


+ @Taygibay am I right in thinking that the majority of MRO work can be done at the operational SQN base of the Rafale itself instead of the need to send it to some central Base Repair Depot (BRD) or back to the production centre? The Rafale is a mechanic's machine- it has been built from the groud up with ease of maintainability in mind.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I wish there was an "Auto Thank" feature where as soon as a Post was made by parikrama, "Thank" was made automatically.

Loved ur Data.

Thank you my good sir..

I dont have a twitter handle so if anybody has a twitter handle may be try and find Vishnu Som, Jugal Purohit and perhaps Manu Pubby..
Tweet and ask what about Rafale Make In India part.. Whats the plan for Rafale?
Let them ask some more people and reply back...

Country is completely blind atm with no clarity how we are going to address our dwindling fleet and capability... This gov at least is trying.. The last one practically took tires off the car and almost asked why we need a car

 

[Taygibay]

Thanks for the extensive answer, Parikrama my friend.

It comes to the same thing I said, albeit differently.

For instance, 9B€ for 54 jets is not the same as for 36. Diff. #1 from mainstream media.
Also, - Package includes flyaway cost+ training+spares+maintenance+support cost+ Comprehensive coverage defined under Total cost of ownership is more than simple support by a lot. Diff. #2.
Then on the last line, 6.37 bn is not 5 as was bandied as result of negos. Diff #3.

But the main difference is found in your point number 2. This will, I promise, change the
way IAF sees maintenance forever. Let me offer examples of how the Rafale is not a MKI.

Old ways vs Rafale way :

Engine trouble is noted when it begins to malfunction. Engine is taken out and repairs performed.
Engine goes through live test with fuel circuit on ground installation and goes back in. 2-3 days.
VS
Engine is monitored by on-board sensors with results downloaded as the Raffy lands. It is taken
out before it malfunctions and modules are changed with bench testing done dry & back. 1 Morning.



Cell stress used to be computed by ad hoc physical verification once nearing full potential. Hours
of service life got adjusted according to findings.
VS
Cell stress sensors are on-board the Rafale ensuring safety and taking statistics out of the equation
since you have empiric measurements for each and every AC.



A whole aircraft would be immobilized if removal of some systems were necessary. 1 frame down but
the process repeats for all other big problems : X frames down.
VS
Everything is plug and play ( a couple hours job max. for say OSF ). Parts from one immobilized AC can be
used to keep many others active. When spares come back in number, it goes back out. 1 frame down.



Now, applying the latter is light years ahead of applying the former and this is the main aspect of this
availability clause. It is found in 2 sentences :

... this time, a special quality check parameter which is used by Fr AF and is recommended by Dassault is being considered. These pre sortie quality checks will be followed as per the guidelines to adhere to the availability aspect.

Replace considered by agreed to and I believe you got yourself a deal!

Tay.

Edited :
P.S. Abingdonboy mate, I think you got your answer above? Yes, parts are sourced but
repairs are done by the SIAé : Industrial Service wing of the AdlA.
For example, Rafale F1 frames were broken down and stripped by those high maintenance
guys ( in the good sense, not like with the missus ) and sent naked to Dassault to be reintro-
duced in the line for refitting to current standard. And that's the biggest change done to any
Rafale existing so far!

 

[Chanakyaa]

Thank you my good sir..

I dont have a twitter handle so if anybody has a twitter handle may be try and find Vishnu Som, Jugal Purohit and perhaps Manu Pubby..
Tweet and ask what about Rafale Make In India part.. Whats the plan for Rafale?
Let them ask some more people and reply back...

Country is completely blind atm with no clarity how we are going to address our dwindling fleet and capability... This gov at least is trying.. The last one practically took tires off the car and almost asked why we need a car

Thanks for the extensive answer, Parikrama my friend.

It comes to the same thing I said, albeit differently.

For instance, 9B€ for 54 jets is not the same as for 36. Diff. #1 from mainstream media.
Also, - Package includes flyaway cost+ training+spares+maintenance+support cost+ Comprehensive coverage defined under Total cost of ownership is more than simple support by a lot. Diff. #2.
Then on the last line, 6.37 bn is not 5 as was bandied as result of negos. Diff #3.

But the main difference is found in your point number 2. This will, I promise, change the
way IAF sees maintenance forever. Let me offer examples of how the Rafale is not a MKI.

Old ways vs Rafale way :

Engine trouble is noted when it begins to malfunction. Engine is taken out and repairs performed.
Engine goes through live test with fuel circuit on ground installation and goes back in. 2-3 days.
Engine is monitored by on-board sensors with results downloaded as the Raffy lands. It is taken
out before it malfunctions and modules are changed with bench testing done dry & back. 1 Morning.

Cell stress used to be computed by ad hoc physical verification once nearing full potential. Hours
of service life got adjusted according to findings.
Cell stress sensors are on-board the Rafale ensuring safety and taking statistics out of the equation
since you have empiric measurements for each and every AC.

A whole aircraft would be immobilized if removal of some systems were necessary. 1 frame down but
the process repeats for all other big problems : X frames down.
Everything is plug and play ( a couple hours job max. for say OSF ). Parts from one immobilized AC can be
used to keep many others active. When spares come back in number, it goes back out. 1 frame down.

Now, applying the latter is light years ahead of applying the former and this is the main aspect of this
availability clause. It is found in 2 sentences :


Replace considered by agreed to and I believe you got yourself a deal!

Tay.

Great Info n Analysis.