All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month!!!!!!!!

[[Bregs]]

India should try going in for large numbers of Rafales as many deals with Russians have stuck into road blocks including MTRA, FGFA, and now it seems S 400 and nuke sub lease because of repeated failures of indian govt since 2001 to Russian concerns. On Russians part they have failed to acknowledge even genuine Indian concerns regarding hue spares problems and repeated service prone weapon systems rather they are blaming india for it. During cold war era india do not had many choices nor money but now India has both so both countries shall try to clear out the wrangling over many deals soon before its too late

 

[Abingdonboy]

Dassault are suppose to not only impart training to Pilots but in fact a certification course for IAF service crew in the the 2 bases housing the Major repair and overhauling center.

Yet this time, a special quality check parameter which is used by Fr AF and is recommended by Dassault is being considered. These pre sortie quality checks will be followed as per the guidelines to adhere to the availability aspect

• Also all these spares will have a regular quality check audit by Dassault authorised people to ensure they have sufficient quality storage , proper shelf life and without any issues. In case if a fault is found in the audit or in storage process, a suitable batch has to be replaced by a new purchase and old ones being disposed.

Engine trouble is noted when it begins to malfunction. Engine is taken out and repairs performed.
Engine goes through live test with fuel circuit on ground installation and goes back in. 2-3 days.
Engine is monitored by on-board sensors with results downloaded as the Raffy lands. It is taken
out before it malfunctions and modules are changed with bench testing done dry & back. 1 Morning.

Cell stress used to be computed by ad hoc physical verification once nearing full potential. Hours
of service life got adjusted according to findings.
Cell stress sensors are on-board the Rafale ensuring safety and taking statistics out of the equation
since you have empiric measurements for each and every AC.

A whole aircraft would be immobilized if removal of some systems were necessary. 1 frame down but
the process repeats for all other big problems : X frames down.
Everything is plug and play ( a couple hours job max. for say OSF ). Parts from one immobilized AC can be
used to keep many others active. When spares come back in number, it goes back out. 1 frame down.

This really would be a completly new way of working for the IAF- external spares audits, full system diagnostics with preemptive maintence etc etc. Beyond the aircraft themselves this plane (and its OEM) will transform the IAF's working practices, I guess one could consider it an intangible resource/asset being acquired which, by nature is extremly hard to value or account for but is nonetheless essential and part of the value in the acquisition.

Anyone who fails to appreciate the signifcance of this factor alone and looks only at the bottom line (price) is a fool or highly biased. Buying cheap has only ended badly for the India in the past and is the reason Life Cycle Costs (LCC) are now the mainstay of Indian defence procurement considerations- predictably to the detriment of Russian products. You pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

• oh about extreme flying there is a clause of 6000 hours or 40 years or 150 hours a year assurance. when that macro is breached a re certification is required for the availability clause applicability

A 150 hour limit would require a greater degree of simulator training requiring full system mission simulators to be procured in large numbers as right now the IAF puts greater than 200 hours a year on its MKIs to keep its crews proficient in combat flying and lacks anything like a full mission simulator for the MKI- this is a factor that receives little attention in the media but deserves to be addressed.

This gov at least is trying.. The last one practically took tires off the car and almost asked why we need a car

Haha, well said my friend.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Thanks for the extensive answer, Parikrama my friend.

It comes to the same thing I said, albeit differently.

For instance, 9B€ for 54 jets is not the same as for 36. Diff. #1 from mainstream media.
Also, - Package includes flyaway cost+ training+spares+maintenance+support cost+ Comprehensive coverage defined under Total cost of ownership is more than simple support by a lot. Diff. #2.
Then on the last line, 6.37 bn is not 5 as was bandied as result of negos. Diff #3.

But the main difference is found in your point number 2. This will, I promise, change the
way IAF sees maintenance forever. Let me offer examples of how the Rafale is not a MKI.

Old ways vs Rafale way :

Engine trouble is noted when it begins to malfunction. Engine is taken out and repairs performed.
Engine goes through live test with fuel circuit on ground installation and goes back in. 2-3 days.
VS
Engine is monitored by on-board sensors with results downloaded as the Raffy lands. It is taken
out before it malfunctions and modules are changed with bench testing done dry & back. 1 Morning.



Cell stress used to be computed by ad hoc physical verification once nearing full potential. Hours
of service life got adjusted according to findings.
VS
Cell stress sensors are on-board the Rafale ensuring safety and taking statistics out of the equation
since you have empiric measurements for each and every AC.



A whole aircraft would be immobilized if removal of some systems were necessary. 1 frame down but
the process repeats for all other big problems : X frames down.
VS
Everything is plug and play ( a couple hours job max. for say OSF ). Parts from one immobilized AC can be
used to keep many others active. When spares come back in number, it goes back out. 1 frame down.



Now, applying the latter is light years ahead of applying the former and this is the main aspect of this
availability clause. It is found in 2 sentences :





Replace considered by agreed to and I believe you got yourself a deal!



Tay.

As always tay, you are a treat to read.. Solid points.. Rafale Service folks will look more like geeks then may be what service folks in all other hangars would look like..

They will work with lot moreplug and play, uploading downloading data and analyzing and doing things which gives them the nick - Mechanics delight bcz of the modular aspect

I think initially every other service person will keep looking at Rafales Hangar to see what new Sir in service is doing !!!

and yes i think it will be "agreed" not considered sureshot

 

[Taygibay]

Rafale Service folks will look more like geeks then maybe what service folks in all other hangars would look like..

LOL Small price to pay! Just get them a free subscription to a dating site to take the edge off the geek tag?

Tay.

 

[surya kiran]

Right now, what is worrying me is this. With all this plug and play, IAF will say, we want this in LCA and AMCA. Back to square one.

On a serious note,

IAF 300 MKIs + 200 rafales + 200 LCA + Rest
IN 45 Mig 29Ks + 45 Rafale N + 45 NLCA

Looks cool!

 

[Taygibay]

^^^ LOLOLOL

Of course they will! It should happen by AMCA too, no reason why not!
Think, design is not finalized so that anything learned in the meanwhile
should be applicable then? TEJAS is another game entirely, too far in!

Take care, my friend, Tay.

P.S. Checked your warning, found nothing so far! Will persist; thanks!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

India should try going in for large numbers of Rafales as many deals with Russians have stuck into road blocks including MTRA, FGFA, and now it seems S 400 and nuke sub lease because of repeated failures of indian govt since 2001 to Russian concerns. On Russians part they have failed to acknowledge even genuine Indian concerns regarding hue spares problems and repeated service prone weapon systems rather they are blaming india for it. During cold war era india do not had many choices nor money but now India has both so both countries shall try to clear out the wrangling over many deals soon before its too late

Thats a very solid point bro.. i am strongly advocating a special envoy strategy to meet discuss and chalk out the strategy.. We cant replace Russia out completely as they are involved in our economy and in Civil and military N projects.

I read in Russian forum initial FGFA for RuAF was planned at 250 and export at 600 with some 250 from India. NOw the cost of maintaining a high end 5th Gen fleet in large numbers are making them revise it to 150 coupled with non surety of export orders and agreement chalking with India who is also looking at 150 type numbers. This has effectively created a storm with cost and export potential decrease hitting long term plans.

PAKFA stage 2 with new engines will come but there will be a slowdown as these matters are increasing the project risks and Russia may look to tie up some new export market customers upfront.

Couple with this the S400 system and N sub deals getting delayed will cause issues not only from security front but also financially to India as money release as per planned acquisitions will go haywire.

Any excess expenditure over budget will hit Fiscal prudence and ratios and directly impacting our Global Rating outlook.

Its far more complex... and it cannot be solved in 3-6 months.. We need regular meetings to sort these issues and we may see some movement in another 12-15 months from now if we are successful.

 

[Abingdonboy]

As always tay, you are a treat to read.. Solid points.. Rafale Service folks will look more like geeks then may be what service folks in all other hangars would look like..

They will work with lot moreplug and play, uploading downloading data and analyzing and doing things which gives them the nick - Mechanics delight bcz of the modular aspect

I think initially every other service person will keep looking at Rafales Hangar to see what new Sir in service is doing !!!
t

This is the way aviation maintence is going (in fact has been for a decade or so), the Rafale groundcrew will simply be ahead of the curve where the IAF is concerned but their best practices will no doubt trickle down to the rest of the IAF. In fact this is exactly what will happen because the IAF has a centralised maintenance command (called maintenance command-go figure ) whose sole job is to institutionalise best practices and ensure consitency of maintence. And, to be fair, the Rafale will not be the only product to show the way foreward to the IAF- the C-130J-30s and C-17s (in particular) are already demonstrating such.

The IAF are not backwards buffoons, they work with what they have and make the most out of it- in the past they have been working tooth and nail to keep the notoriously unservicable Russian equipment flying which required a specific skill/toolset and was more about reactive maintence and there was an entire absence of diognostic computers/systems associated with these products (even the MKI only features this minimally) but now they are transitioning more to a Western methodology of working.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

But next 12-15 years is the best time France and Dassault has to get max Rafales sold to India.. IF they cant pull this golden opportunity gifted to them due to geopolitical situation and India cannot make this work, History will blame both France and India to be incompetent parties who were not able to make use of golden opportunities and make a strategic partnership for a new powerful economic & world order

 

[[Bregs]]

Thats a very solid point bro.. i am strongly advocating a special envoy strategy to meet discuss and chalk out the strategy.. We cant replace Russia out completely as they are involved in our economy and in Civil and military N projects.

I read in Russian forum initial FGFA for RuAF was planned at 250 and export at 600 with some 250 from India. NOw the cost of maintaining a high end 5th Gen fleet in large numbers are making them revise it to 150 coupled with non surety of export orders and agreement chalking with India who is also looking at 150 type numbers. This has effectively created a storm with cost and export potential decrease hitting long term plans.

PAKFA stage 2 with new engines will come but there will be a slowdown as these matters are increasing the project risks and Russia may look to tie up some new export market customers upfront.

Couple with this the S400 system and N sub deals getting delayed will cause issues not only from security front but also financially to India as money release as per planned acquisitions will go haywire.

Any excess expenditure over budget will hit Fiscal prudence and ratios and directly impacting our Global Rating outlook.

Its far more complex... and it cannot be solved in 3-6 months.. We need regular meetings to sort these issues and we may see some movement in another 12-15 months from now if we are successful.

well bro the most baffling at present is the ordinary outcome of Indian PM tour to Russia both in defense contents and in international cooperation. If at highest level there are so much cold vibes visible so what the lower ranks can achieve in solving the jinxed stuck defense contracts. perhaps a special diplomats teams is required to settle out all thorny issues lest IN will be biggest looser out of this

 

[PARIKRAMA]

This is the way aviation maintence is going (in fact has been for a decade or so), the Rafale groundcrew will simply be ahead of the curve where the IAF is concerned but their best practices will no doubt trickle down to the rest of the IAF. In fact this is exactly what will happen because the IAF has a centralised maintenance command (called maintenance command-go figure ) whose sole job is to institutionalise best practices and ensure consitency of maintence. And, to be fair, the Rafale will not be the only product to show the way foreward to the IAF- the C-130J-30s and C-17s (in particular) are already demonstrating such.

The IAF are not backwards buffoons, they work with what they have and make the most out of it- in the past they have been working tooth and nail to keep the notoriously unservicable Russian equipment flying which required a specific skill/toolset and was more about reactive maintence and there was an entire absence of diognostic computers/systems associated with these products (even the MKI only features this minimally) but now they are transitioning more to a Western methodology of working.

Add two more products which i can almost confirm will have similar high quality maintenance standards and perhaps a comprehensive global support services for spares and other supports - Apaches and Chinooks..

The IAF are not backwards buffoons, they work with what they have and make the most out of it- in the past they have been working tooth and nail to keep the notoriously unservicable Russian equipment flying which required a specific skill/toolset and was more about reactive maintence and there was an entire absence of diognostic computers/systems associated with these products (even the MKI only features this minimally) but now they are transitioning more to a Western methodology of working.

Very well said.. Those Service crew has been instrumental bcz of which at least we got to such numbers in availability..

 

[Abingdonboy]

Add two more products which i can almost confirm will have similar high quality maintenance standards and perhaps a comprehensive global support services for spares and other supports - Apaches and Chinooks..

Indeed, I keep forgetting those deals have been signed! And for prospective deals the S-70B and A330 MRTT will add to this shift in culture going foreward.

I think it is in India's best interest to stick to France where possible for defence deals- they are a friendly nation, willing to work with India but they will also insist on working how they know is best so that no corners are cut. If the Rafale deal goes well for sure French technical assistance will be coming to the LCA (and by extension AMCA) and many other future projects (IMRH? AURA?).

France doesn't have an active 5th generation fighter project, the AMCA still on the drawing board (meaning open to external influence) and the IAF and FrAF both commiting to the Rafale and its future roadmap I think there is something very intriguing laying down the road for both nations....

Yes India would be the less experienced partner in many arenas but India has proven it is able to step up to the task and has the capacity to devlop new capabilites rapidly.

How good does a Indo-French (with some Israeli help thrown in) AMCA/fith gen project sound? It sounds pretty good to me @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Vauban @anant_s

 

[PARIKRAMA]

many other future projects (IMRH? AURA?).

@halloweene long time back did say about some Neuron tech being discussed as part of TOT package may be in MMRCA saga timeline.. Perhaps an extension of simmilar tech to Aura may be given if we do get say a MII deal and order a large number of Rafales.

How good does a Indo-French (with some Israeli help thrown in) AMCA/fith gen project sound? It sounds pretty good to me

Well lets put it this way, Can AMCA be build on Rafale as mother platform? Implying AMCA to be evolved variant of Rafale adhering to 5th Gen requirements? India can be a major investor there say at 66% and france can be minor investor as they are bring the technology so naturally real money should be brought by India.

See we know Rafale is LO in terms of RCS. We can see a feasibility of evolving and builidng a 5th Gen version of the Rafale based platform and target VLO aspect... Internal Weapon Bays can be added... Frame needs to become a bit larger to accommodate larger fuel capacity. Newer more powerful engines to get better cruise performance. Internally collapsible refuelling probe means reworking of inside parts..etc etc

Its possible IMHO..

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well lets put it this way, Can AMCA be build on Rafale as mother platform? Implying AMCA to be evolved variant of Rafale adhering to 5th Gen requirements? India can be a major investor there say at 66% and france can be minor investor as they are bring the technology so naturally real money should be brought by India.

See we know Rafale is LO in terms of RCS. We can see a feasibility of evolving and builidng a 5th Gen version of the Rafale based platform and target VLO aspect... Internal Weapon Bays can be added... Frame needs to become a bit larger to accommodate larger fuel capacity. Newer more powerful engines to get better cruise performance. Internally collapsible refuelling probe means reworking of inside parts..etc etc

Its possible IMHO..

An AMCA design incorporating all of the advanced features of the Rafale would produce superior results IMHO. The Rafale is an incredible design and ahead of its time for sure but it is still a 4.5+ gen fighter only and built optimising that mandate. There will be inherant issues in "5th genising" the Rafale, and I think the main issue may be the internal weapons bay- one can see this demonstrated on the comprimised internal weapons carrying performance of the F-15 "Silent Eagle".

Appyling all the lessons learnt from the Rafale with an entirely new, highly optimised, VLO airframe, improved powerplants, Indian/French AESA radar, next generation cockpit, full spectrum sensor fusion etc will produce an absolute beast.

And with France as a partner this won't be pie in the sky dreaming but very very attainable.

 

[Oracle 33]

I think Saab are desperate and would offer more in ToT than Dassult would in my view

They should be brought in as consultants for the AMCA