Akinci & Aksungur and Turkish Unmanned Fighter Aircraft Program

[GlobalMillitary96]

'Delayed because of corruption', so engine is ready and waiting? It is pathetic to bring politics into everything. Bayraktar UCAVs are also the problem of corruption I suppose since its Erdogan son in laws company. I suppose any firm could have produced them?

Dude, what does Baykar Makina have to do with any of this? The Altay program has been delayed due to nepotism and that's a fact. Otokar was ready and able to produce them years ago until the government decided to hand the contract to BMC who doesn't have the capabilities to produce them. Alternative engines such as the IVECO 1600hp existed and were available for purchase years ago. The production has been delayed at least two years because BMC has zero experience with not only the Altay but tracked vehicles in general.

 

[SgtGungHo]

American UAVs were shot down and even brought down by Iran. So Russians would have no problem.

Many Turkish UAVs were shot down, but I do not question their combat worthiness. I want to see how Russian anti-air systems operated by Russian Army is effective against American UAVs at battlefields.

Akinci UAV is evenmore advanced than Reaper, it will carry AESA radar and have a certain level of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Will be able to engage aircraft with and helicopters with AA missiles.

In UAV technology we are quite self sufficient.

Turkey can't build a turboprop engine for that UAV. Ukrainian engine will be fitted in Akinci UAV. Yes, I know that turboshaft engine is relatively easy to convert to turboprop engine and Turkey is developing TS1400, but the engine development has not finished yet. Even then, Reaper will have more payload than Akinci.

But soon or later the tank will be produced anyway.

That would be great, mate.

 

[Saithan]

Many Turkish UAVs were shot down, but I do not question their combat worthiness. I want to see how Russian anti-air systems operated by Russian Army is effective against American UAVs at battlefields.



Turkey can't build a turboprop engine for that UAV. Ukrainian engine will be fitted in Akinci UAV. Yes, I know that turboshaft engine is relatively easy to convert to turboprop engine and Turkey is developing TS1400, but the engine development has not finished yet. Even then, Reaper will have more payload than Akinci.


That would be great, mate.

We’re progressing on the engine production. It’s going slow because every aspect of the engine built and tested needs to be domestic. And from what I’ve seen TEI has been tasked with investments in order to be able to mass produce the engine.

Altay has faced quite a few roadblocks. But from what I’ve seen Otokar offered to build it for 28 mio € a piece, whilst BMC said they could do it for 14 mio €. That was before the embargo on MTU. Quite a price difference. If you want further infor look back some 3-4 pages

 

[Ansu fati]

Many Turkish UAVs were shot down, but I do not question their combat worthiness. I want to see how Russian anti-air systems operated by Russian Army is effective against American UAVs at battlefields.
Turkey can't build a turboprop engine for that UAV. Ukrainian engine will be fitted in Akinci UAV. Yes, I know that turboshaft engine is relatively easy to convert to turboprop engine and Turkey is developing TS1400, but the engine development has not finished yet. Even then, Reaper will have more payload than Akinci.

If we start counting american/turkish UAVs then without a doubt there are more american downed than turkish ones this is expected as americans got their armed drones 15+ years before turks but there’s one big difference between them Turkey used drones in conventional short conflict against an army(assadists are maybe with worse skills than some militias but they have much more advanced equipment no militia has air defense systems for example)
There are 7 confirmed UAV losses versus 8 russian air defense systems(we are talking about 6 TB2 tactical and 1 Anka-S MALE UAV) I think statistics are excellent that show how much of a threat russians are
Regarding Reaper
Akinci has less payload(the difference isn’t so big) but if you see the types of weapons Akinci can carry versus MQ-9 plus other stuff like aesa radar ecm pod and Al in mission computer for better decision making then Akinci is at least on par with MQ-9

 

[Nutuk]

Turkey can't build a turboprop engine for that UAV. Ukrainian engine will be fitted in Akinci UAV. Yes, I know that turboshaft engine is relatively easy to convert to turboprop engine and Turkey is developing TS1400, but the engine development has not finished yet. Even then, Reaper will have more payload than Akinci.

Does it matter? How did US start with many technologies, would it be possible for the US without a Sikorsky (Russian) to grow this big in helicopters or Werner von Braun to reach the moon? US still uses engineers and technologies from all over the world.

So using a Ukrainian engine is not the limiting factor, besides a joint venture company is established in which these engines will be build ITAR free for Turkey and new engines will be developed.
Reaper has more payload because she doesn't have radar on board. Payload is a matter of trade off.

Anyway I am not going in discussion whether US or Turkish UAV's are better, the US has far far more budget to go and develop state of the art. We are concentrating on our own use and we are doing pretty well.

Next step is developing a jet powered UCAV, kinda like the Australian Boeing wingman UAV project

 

[Nutuk]

'Delayed because of corruption', so engine is ready and waiting? It is pathetic to bring politics into everything. Bayraktar UCAVs are also the problem of corruption I suppose since its Erdogan son in laws company. I suppose any firm could have produced them?

I guess you are one of those simple minds who believe in fairythales?
Let us suppose for a moment that the problem is indeed the engine, than why did they wait these two years?
Does it take SSM 2 years to realize Germans not selling the engines? Something is pretty screwed there don't you think.

And what has Bayraktar to do with the tank? You are looking for forced excuses?

 

[SgtGungHo]

There are 7 confirmed UAV losses versus 8 russian air defense systems(we are talking about 6 TB2 tactical and 1 Anka-S MALE UAV) I think statistics are excellent that show how much of a threat russians are
Regarding Reaper

TB2 nor Anka-S is not on par with Reaper in terms of capability. I do not question whether Turkey will operate MQ-9 Reaper-tier drones in the future, but at the moment they don't have any. That's the point. The war in Syria was a rare opportunity that Reaper being tested against a Russian air-defense system operated by Russian Army as Turkey had tried to buy Reaper in the past.

Does it matter?

Yes, it does matter. It means Turkey still has to buy foreign-designed engines for a Reaper-tier UAV and the country is not "quite sufficient". Turkey will get there eventually, but not now.

a Ukrainian engine is not the limiting factor

Kinda is. Airbreathing jet engines from ex-Soviet Union block notoriously have a shorter service life and TBO. And it is Ukrainian engine, not Turkish whether it is going to be built in Ukraine or Turkey.

Reaper has more payload because she doesn't have radar on board. Payload is a matter of trade off.

That does not explain why Reaper has better maximum take-off weight and higher service ceiling. In fact, Reaper has radar on board.

However, I am not here to argue whose UAVs are superior, but rather say that it is a pity that Reaper could not be tested against Russian air-defense systems operated by Russian Army because the US had refused to sell the drone to Turkey. It is particularly important as Western MBTs will accompany UAVs and I like to know how effective Russian air-defense systems are against them. Maybe Reaper-tier UAV from Turkey would satisfy my interest in the future.

 

[Nutuk]

TB2 nor Anka-S is not on par with Reaper in terms of capability. I do not question whether Turkey will operate MQ-9 Reaper-tier drones in the future, but at the moment they don't have any. That's the point. The war in Syria was a rare opportunity that Reaper being tested against a Russian air-defense system operated by Russian Army as Turkey had tried to buy Reaper in the past.

Of course they are not same, TB2 is a tactical drone and the ANKA-S is a much smaller drone than the turboprop powered Reaper. They are not in the same league.

Yes, it does matter. It means Turkey still has to buy foreign-designed engines for a Reaper-tier UAV and the country is not "quite sufficient". Turkey will get there eventually, but not now.

You did not pay attention friend. I wrote that a joint venture company was created to build these Ukrainian engines. The rights of the engines are going to be property of this joint-venture company and the new company will also develop new engines in the future. In this way there will be no dependency on engines

Kinda is. Airbreathing jet engines from ex-Soviet Union block notoriously have a shorter service life and TBO. And it is Ukrainian engine, not Turkish whether it is going to be built in Ukraine or Turkey.

That's a false assumption you make as the same engine is used on many western platforms as well like Austrian trainer aircraft. The engine is a proven reliable having a good service live. But let's not stray into these technicalities.

That does not explain why Reaper has better maximum take-off weight and higher service ceiling. In fact, Reaper has radar on board.

However, I am not here to argue whose UAVs are superior, but rather say that it is a pity that Reaper could not be tested against Russian air-defense systems operated by Russian Army because the US had refused to sell the drone to Turkey. It is particularly important as Western MBTs will accompany UAVs and I like to know how effective Russian air-defense systems are against them. Maybe Reaper-tier UAV from Turkey would satisfy my interest in the future.

You are now comparing a light weight SAR radar with an AESA radar, they have quite different weights. apples and oranges!

If the US want to test her Reapers on Pantsir than what is stopping them? They don't need Turkey for that!
And from this point on I do not believe Turkey has any interest in Reaper like platforms, not while we have a better one (Akinci)

 

[SgtGungHo]

You did not pay attention friend. I wrote that a joint venture company was created to build these Ukrainian engines. The rights of the engines are going to be property of this joint-venture company and the new company will also develop new engines in the future. In this way there will be no dependency on engines

That's a false assumption you make as the same engine is used on many western platforms as well like Austrian trainer aircraft. The engine is a proven reliable having a good service live. But let's not stray into these technicalities.

Mate, intellectual property rights belong to the company that developed the engine and they do not get transferred to its subsidiary & joint venture. The state-owned Ukrainian company, Ivchenko did not transfer critical technology in the past and won't do it in the future for its strategic national interest in engine technologies. In fact, it seems like each part would have to develop their own module and Ivchenko already has an improved version of AI-450 with 750hp.

I don't see many Western companies using Ivchenko engines. In fact, the trainer (I believe you are referring Diamond DART series), but even the latest DART series use a GE engine. Considering both Diamond and Evektor try to use GE and P&W engines, I believe Ukrainian engines are not quite up to the standards of Western engines and it is expected as Ivchenko Turbofans engine was known for inferior quality in general.

You are now comparing a light weight SAR radar with an AESA radar, they have quite different weights. apples and oranges!

Mate, you said Reaper has no radar. I just pointed out the fact that It has a radar. You said the difference in payload is due to weight of AESA (probably surveillance) radar. However, I pointed out that it doesn't explain the difference in payload as Reaper has higher Max. Take-off Weight which includes everything such as fuel and landing gears to begin with at higher altitude of 50,000 ft (vs. 40,000 ft of Turkish one). The difference in Max. Take-Off Weight is 260kg and in payload is 350kg. That means, for whatever reasons (fuels and etc), the Turkish UAV is burdened with an extra weight of 90kg. However, the difference in Max. Take-Off Weight is 260kg. This means Reaper could carry 170kg more even if they were the same weight.

If the US want to test her Reapers on Pantsir than what is stopping them? They don't need Turkey for that!
And from this point on I do not believe Turkey has any interest in Reaper like platforms, not while we have a better one (Akinci)

I am not the US. I am just a spectator.

Yes, at the moment, I am sure Turkey is not interested MQ-9 Reaper at the moment. However, they were interested in buying American drones in the past and it is the fact that they requested approval of purchase. As a spectator, I wish the US had approved the sales and Turkey had operated American drones against Russian-operated Pantsir and other Russian air-defense systems as this kind of warefare will be relevant in the future as MBTs of each army will accompany supporting forces such as UAVs and air-defense system.

 

[polanski]

Advancing Drones Industry of Turkey: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/05/14/advancing-drones-industry-of-turkey/

 

[Nutuk]

There are countless examples that IP rights are turned over. Even our FNSS does it with the Light tank they have developed for Indonesia and lately the IP rights of the ANKA-S were sold to Tunisia.

The same is applied with the new joint venture company "Black Sea shield", a joint venture between UkrSpetsExport and Bayraktar companies

Anyway discussing about the quality of engine will end into yes it does, no it doesn't. Since AKINCI is a new development we just have to wait and see it's worth!
By the way Akinci will make use of different configurations and use both the 450 and 750hp type engines, there is also a configuration using TEI PD 220 engines. (like buying a car with different engine options)

 

[SİLAHDAR]

There are countless examples that IP rights are turned over. Even our FNSS does it with the Light tank they have developed for Indonesia and lately the IP rights of the ANKA-S were sold to Tunisia.

The same is applied with the new joint venture company "Black Sea shield", a joint venture between UkrSpetsExport and Bayraktar companies

Anyway discussing about the quality of engine will end into yes it does, no it doesn't. Since AKINCI is a new development we just have to wait and see it's worth!
By the way Akinci will make use of different configurations and use both the 450 and 750hp type engines, there is also a configuration using TEI PD 220 engines.

Using ukranien engine from a joint venture by baykar meaning low cost. Bayraktar tb-2 very costeffective price/performance vehicle also I'm thinking akıncı of course more costly vehicle than bayraktar but he will be costeffective when compared his same level ucavs. His cost will be nothing much when compared his weapon carry performance and strategical strike capabilities whit hgk-kgk and som also aa capabilities with bvr and radar.

But baykar can gain much more money if him achieve to make low cost semi or fully stealth aa capable mius, just because they have not so much rival in his level and his capabilities will be superb when compared his costs.
İf baykar support this roadmap with awacs,ew,air refuel uav's baykar will be in top 5 uav makers in 10 years.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

The engine will be the rights of Turkey. Few of the engine will be produced in Turkey, do it on purpose "MCTR" Because of such agreement, Ukraine 's difficult situation to leave.
Anka rights have not been sold in Tunisia or something. I don't want to talk off topic, but please be a little calm.

 

[SgtGungHo]

There are countless examples that IP rights are turned over. Even our FNSS does it with the Light tank they have developed for Indonesia and lately the IP rights of the ANKA-S were sold to Tunisia.

They are not airbreathig jet engines, mate. They are strategically too important. Ivchenko refused to transfer technologies to Turkey in the past and they will refuse Turkey's requests in the future.

The same is applied with the new joint venture company "Black Sea shield", a joint venture between UkrSpetsExport and Bayraktar companies

Ah, yes UkrSpetsExport It seems like Ukraine think they are exporting engines to Turkey by allowing Turkey to build the engines under license on Turkish soil at a jointly owned plant. I think UkrSpetsExport has a similar deal with Myanmar over BTR-4 APCs. Also, it is likely that Ukraine buying Turkish UAVs is a part of offset deal between two countries.

By the way Akinci will make use of different configurations and use both the 450 and 750hp type engines, there is also a configuration using TEI PD 220 engines. (like buying a car with different engine options)

That's kinda worrisome. There is huge differences between a 220hp, a 450hp and a 750hp engine. Plus, Tei PD220 is probably not a Turboprop engine, but only a diesel aircraft engine if they are structurally the same as PD170. Plus, the 220ph engine will greatly compromise the max. take-off weight of Turkish UAV in development. However, it seems like even lesser UCAVs are enough against infantries and amoured vehicles in Syria.

 

[SİLAHDAR]