Air Forces Monthly - summary of updates to JF-17

[Trango Towers]

Point 7 is crown jewel.
7. RD-93 baseline to speed up induction as RD-93MA still being evaluated.

Without an engine which gives more T/W atleast 1 or 1.1 is limited in power, maneuverability, total weight carrying capacity, and combat range. With RD-93MA, JFT Block III shall compete with any lightweight single engine multirole fighter in the market even beat it.

This is also the reason, IMO, that PAF is acquiring J-10C while JFT Block III are about to be delivered. It is underpowered.

Unbelievable.

Pakistanis - once they hear something they stick to it

1.Jf17 engine is underpowered because TW ratio isn't above one.
2. Is you drink water after eating melon you get heeza( whatever the f that is and melon is like 95% water...water on top of water causes problems)
3. Toyota corolla is still the best car in the world
4. Don't eat eggs or fish in the summer...garam hoti hai...I mean wtf

Jf17 TW ratio = 0.99 with full external tanks

Here read

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3uFVLYWNMikwdN4agfWOyd

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[Bilal.]

Unbelievable.

Pakistanis - once they hear something they stick to it

1.Jf17 engine is underpowered because TW ratio isn't above one.
2. Is you drink water after eating melon you get heeza( whatever the f that is and melon is like 95% water...water on top of water causes problems)
3. Toyota corolla is still the best car in the world
4. Don't eat eggs or fish in the summer...garam hoti hai...I mean wtf

5. Don’t drink milk or use milk products after eating fish.

 

[The Eagle]

Yes. Already pointed by the member. But another confusion since in the article they say liquid cooled and then they use a speculative language in the picture caption as in: “it looks like” KLJ7AESA radar will be air cooled.

Most probably due to plumbing/fittings/piping arrangement/installation.... may be the reason to make such a statement=guess work.

However, what if the radar is Air + Liquid cooled?

 

[Bilal.]

Most probably due to plumbing/fittings/piping arrangement/installation.... may be the reason to make such a statement=guess work.

However, what if the radar is Air + Liquid cooled?

View attachment 810295

Yes. I believe some members had already pointed that it’s a hybrid cooling. The point is that the magazine should have done a better job at ascertaining with the officials and should not have had contradictory statements.

As a paid service and with the kind of connections they have with PAF we expect more then just speculations and if something is classified they should state so.

 

[MIRauf]

It’s quite strange that PAF hasn’t thought of integrating IRST on the BLK III. Now they are getting into a scenario where potential customers are asking for one and a non integrated IRST isn’t going to cut for these customers.

The same thing happened with the twin seaters, for many years PAF claimed that there was no reason for twin seaters for the JF-17. But after demands by customers, PAF not only built them but also saw a need for such twin seaters.

There is something wrong with PAF’s thinking process.

Biggest reason: JF-17, Built by an Air-Force for (emphasis is on) 'an Air-Force ( PAF, )' everything else is hind sight.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It’s quite strange that PAF hasn’t thought of integrating IRST on the BLK III. Now they are getting into a scenario where potential customers are asking for one and a non integrated IRST isn’t going to cut for these customers.

The same thing happened with the twin seaters, for many years PAF claimed that there was no reason for twin seaters for the JF-17. But after demands by customers, PAF not only built them but also saw a need for such twin seaters.

There is something wrong with PAF’s thinking process.

This is a downside of being the "only air force to build a fighter."

If the PAF didn't understand the value of X for its own needs, then X wouldn't come to the JF-17 unless a customer asked for it. Now, I get that the JF-17 was primarily meant for the PAF, so these commercial considerations should matter less. However, if that's the truth, then the PAF shouldn't go around marketing the fighter for sales.

In any case, this episode is a good reason to clearly demarcate weapons development from operational management. If AHQ doesn't want IRST, then fine, but let the development side work on it for the sake of sales or even to study the technology.

This is exactly how it works everywhere else. If the PLAAF was also an "air force that builds fighter planes" then there'd be no JF-17. Instead, the PAF would be told to buy J-10. Likewise, if USAF was an "air force that builds fighter planes" the UAE wouldn't have Block-60, rather, it'd be told to get Block-50 and wait for the day when USAF is interested in AESA radars.

That said, Leonardo had marketed the Skyward IRST system to the PAF as both an internal suite and an externally podded option.

 

[JamD]

There's an important question about the author that I don't know the answer to. Who is Sqd Ldr (Ret) Fahad Masood?
I mean he retired as a Sqd Ldr so presumably has been out of the PAF for a while. So what reason do we have to think that any of the things in the article are official? Maybe the simple explanation is that this is just an opinion piece by an exPAF officer that has followed the program and his "information" is out-of-date information, a bunch of rumors, PDF-type osint, and off-the-cuff remarks by his in service colleagues.

I think it is important that we view this article in the right context.

This is a downside of being the "only air force to build a fighter."

If the PAF didn't understand the value of X for its own needs, then X wouldn't come to the JF-17 unless a customer asked for it. Now, I get that the JF-17 was primarily meant for the PAF, so these commercial considerations should matter less. However, if that's the truth, then the PAF shouldn't go around marketing the fighter for sales.

In any case, this episode is a good reason to clearly demarcate weapons development from operational management. If AHQ doesn't want IRST, then fine, but let the development side work on it for the sake of sales or even to study the technology.

This is exactly how it works everywhere else. If the PLAAF was also an "air force that builds fighter planes" then there'd be no JF-17. Instead, the PAF would be told to buy J-10. Likewise, if USAF was an "air force that builds fighter planes" the UAE wouldn't have Block-60, rather, it'd be told to get Block-50 and wait for the day when USAF is interested in AESA radars.

That said, Leonardo had marketed the Skyward IRST system to the PAF as both an internal suite and an externally podded option.

Yeah, I never got that boasting. We are the only air force that makes fighter jets. Yeah that's not a good thing! There's a (actually several) reason you're the only one.

 

[Bilal.]

There's an important question about the author that I don't know the answer to. Who is Sqd Ldr (Ret) Fahad Masood?
I mean he retired as a Sqd Ldr so presumably has been out of the PAF for a while. So what reason do we have to think that any of the things in the article are official? Maybe the simple explanation is that this is just an opinion piece by an exPAF officer that has followed the program and his "information" is out-of-date information, a bunch of rumors, PDF-type osint, and off-the-cuff remarks by his in service colleagues.

I think it is important that we view this article in the right context.

The reason to expect getting official information are:

a/ AFM is associated with Alan Warnes if I am not mistaken. And we all know his connections with PAF and ability to have the AFM crew get authentic information.

b/ it’s a paid magazine dedicated to Air Force related news and development. One expects them to do more research work to provide authentic information or at least to add disclaimers where the information being presented is “out-of-date information, a bunch of rumors, PDF-type osint, and off-the-cuff remarks by the author’s/source’s in service colleagues”

 

[JamD]

The reason to expect getting official information are:

a/ AFM is associated with Alan Warnes if I am not mistaken. And we all know his connections with PAF and ability to have the AFM crew get authentic information.

b/ it’s a paid magazine dedicated to Air Force related news and development. One expects them to do more research work to provide authentic information or at least to add disclaimers where the information being presented is “out-of-date information, a bunch of rumors, PDF-type osint, and off-the-cuff remarks by the author’s/source’s in service colleagues”

I would hope so too but looking at the article I am not too sure.

On the other hand we have received official information that the JF-17 is what two feet tall?lol

 

[Bilal.]

I would hope so too but looking at the article I am not too sure.

On the other hand we have received official information that the JF-17 is what two feet tall?lol

Yeah given that official poster snafu this is a masterpiece

 

[HRK]

That said, Leonardo had marketed the Skyward IRST system to the PAF as both an internal suite and an externally podded option.

I think not much of the space available in the nose section of JF-17 to accommodate IRST & possibly this could be the reason to not integrate it.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think not much of the space available in the nose section of JF-17 to accommodate IRST & possibly this could be the reason to not integrate it.

I wonder if it could be a JF-17B or Block-III thing. Alan Warnes said way back that the JF-17B has an 'enlarged nose' for the AESA radar. I imagine this is true for the Block-III too. I wonder if (upon customer request) also kept IRST in mind. That said, an internal suite isn't a big deal, we have the special mission hardpoint. I think the bigger issue is why the PAF didn't push to at least integrate an IRST (even as a podded solution). You still need to do quite some work to make the sensor work with the HMI environment.

 

[Falcon26]

You mean built in Frame?

Yes.

 

[JamD]

I wonder if it could be a JF-17B or Block-III thing. Alan Warnes said way back that the JF-17B has an 'enlarged nose' for the AESA radar. I imagine this is true for the Block-III too. I wonder if (upon customer request) also kept IRST in mind. That said, an internal suite isn't a big deal, we have the special mission hardpoint. I think the bigger issue is why the PAF didn't push to at least integrate an IRST (even as a podded solution). You still need to do quite some work to make the sensor work with the HMI environment.

In my opinion "enlarged nose" probably just refers to slight reshaping of the radome because we are unable to spot anything obvious. So I doubt there's any extra room for anything.

As for podded solution, I believe the article is arguing that (at least according to potential customers) those don't work well enough as nose-mounted IRST since the aircraft's own heat signature is too overwhelming for the podded IRST to filter out and thus the podded solution suffers in performance significantly. That's what I understood at least.

 

[araz]

DEEC is part of a FADEC system.

I understand that but the talk was that of a fully automated system for engine management