Air Force chief says French fighter jet deal close

[acid rain]

Sure.. why not.. If We get SAAB's know how , we can develop LCA as true multirole aircraft. Why limit yourself to 126 RAFALEs when you can induct >250 LCAs ( upgraded ) in same price..



Now you are thinking like a true "baniya"..

We can recover the costs of billions poured into the LCA and make it more acceptable - the topping on the cake is we get to call it our own.


The problem is that the MMRCA has gone too far to be cancelled now.

We should talk to SAAB about the AMCA - many countries have multiple programs running - so can we.

 

[Astra-2013]

Russia is biggest weapon exporter in the world.

If you dont want a FGFA,simpy say "**** off " to Russians,T50 is strategical goal for Russia to keep West away from their borders,after this mess in Ukraine they will pay even billions more to make PAK FA working.

And good luck when another 1965/71 crisis happened to India,I hope that tiny Oland will provide political support to India,but i highly doubt potential of France to project power in South Asia.

u are not a superpower any more. soviet union disintegrated more than two decade ago. U only had old technology of soviet union left.
PAK-FA develop karne me to ga@nd fat gayi...or baat karta hai

 

[sancho]

many countries have multiple programs running - so can we.

The issue is not how many projects one can run at the same time, but if there is an operational need and a requirement for it. That's exactly the problem for Saab in Sweden, because their Air Force had not even the requirement for that many Gripens, Sweden actually ordered, which is why they desperately are trying to sell them off as 2nd hand fighters. With the Gripen E and nEUROn developments, there is also no need for a stealth fighter project in Sweden. So even if they have the know how, they can't use it without an actual need and the same is the problem here too. There is no need for AMCA in IAF, that's why they don't show any interest in it and are focusing on FGFA and drones. So it doesn't matter if DRDO / ADA develops AMCA alone or with Saabs help, it still remains an unnecessary project for IAF. Only IN actually needs stealth fighter and only there an AMCA would make sense, but that didn't got to DRDO / ADA so far.

 

[DejanSRB]

@Astra-2013

First,you must learn how to quote my post.
Second.I am not a ex Soviet,I am from Serbia,1000 Km away from ex Soviet border.

u are not a superpower any more

Russia is still one of four main geopolitical powers in the world along USA,EU and China.


You shouldnt make a "" about Soviet disintegration,Soviets stop West from totally destruction of Indian economy and military,even today India would be parriah state of the world if invasion happened.

U only had old technology of soviet union left.

Nope,Russian weapon inqenuity shows its fruits today.
Kornet,Pantsir,S400,new Armada platform,Topol M,T90,SU35,MIG 35,Pak FA,new submarines,new BTR....

hahahah and btw,India is biggest weapons importer in the world and main of it imports are from Russia,so you just buying it "old Soviet tecnology"

Russia is ranked 2nd most powerful military by all means,so you just make a biggest pile of BS in one post.Congrats.

 

[acid rain]

@sancho,

pls break it down for me as to the aavailable options in the market from now to the next 10 years, for lets say first world countries, third world countries, rich countries and poor countries. I can think of only a few.


F35
su's
typhoon
rafale
grippen - and what else? the chinese one's.

There is a shortage of makes all around. Why not tinker with the LCA/AMCA along with a partner and make it an exportable product to say a batch of countries?

 

[sancho]

Nope,Russian weapon inqenuity shows its fruits today.
Kornet,Pantsir,S400,new Armada platform,Topol M,T90,SU35,MIG 35,Pak FA,new submarines,new BTR....

Russia is ranked 2nd most powerful military by all means,so you just make a biggest pile of BS in one

You have some points, but that doesn't fit though. Russia still shows the skills to develop high techs (no doubt about that), but doesn't have the money to operate such a large force and defence industry as in Soviet times, which is why Indian money is desperately needed, but also why not all the development will find it's ways to Russian military today. The fact that they are now buying Su 30SMs, although they developed Su 34s and 35s for dedicated requirements of the Russian forces, that they buy Mig 29SMTs and not the newly developed Mig 35, or even that they buy the Mig 29K because IN largely funded development and production and shows the lack of money. You can also add the fact, that the government in recent years started to go away from Russian industry and tried to form JVs and co-developments, to get the joint fundings they need to develop and sucessfully produce the products. Be it S1000 sub with Italy, IFVs with France, or even the desperate try to get Brazil on board of the Pak Fa development, all aimed on counter the problems Russian defence industry and Russian forces faces today.

India needs Russia as a reliable defence partner, but Russia also needs India as a reliable market for their defence and energy industry and today even as a political support! So it's a win win for both sides, if things goes smoothly!

 

[sancho]

pls break it down for me as to the aavailable options in the market from now to the next 10 years, for lets say first world countries, third world countries, rich countries and poor countries. I can think of only a few.


F35
su's
typhoon
rafale
grippen - and what else? the chinese one's.

Typhons will be out of production by around 2018 and I still think that the Canadians will keep F18SH productions running for a while, depending on how long the Mig production line can be kept open, the Mig 35 will be available, just as JF 17, J10 and at the lower ends trainers with combat capabilities are coming in as well, S. Koreas T50, Russias Yak130..., not to mention that at the higher end the Pak Fa and possibly J31 will be available.

There is a shortage of makes all around. Why not tinker with the LCA/AMCA along with a partner and make it an exportable product to say a batch of countries?

There would be a need for a light, cost effective combat fighter, with western standards in competition to the Gripen E, to replace a lot of F16s, for countries that can't afford stealth fighters. But even if we will get LCA MK2 around the same time the Gripen E arrives, our reputation is low, the export constrains with US engines and Israeli techs high, while the Gripens potential with Brazil as a supporting power will only grow, especially on the S. American market.
For stealth fighters, the market is too little and the competition already too high! F35s, Asia will have Pak Fa, FGFA, KFX and Japan will field it's own fighter too. Turkey is developing the TFX, which will have a good prospect for exports too, since they will take benefit of European and US development support, as well as of the shelf techs.

 

[acid rain]

Typhons will be out of production by around 2018 and I still think that the Canadians will keep F18SH productions running for a while, depending on how long the Mig production line can be kept open, the Mig 35 will be available, just as JF 17, J10 and at the lower ends trainers with combat capabilities are coming in as well, S. Koreas T50, Russias Yak130..., not to mention that at the higher end the Pak Fa and possibly J31 will be available.



There would be a need for a light, cost effective combat fighter, with western standards in competition to the Gripen E, to replace a lot of F16s, for countries that can't afford stealth fighters. But even if we will get LCA MK2 around the same time the Gripen E arrives, our reputation is low, the export constrains with US engines and Israeli techs high, while the Gripens potential with Brazil as a supporting power will only grow, especially on the S. American market.
For stealth fighters, the market is too little and the competition already too high! F35s, Asia will have Pak Fa, FGFA, KFX and Japan will field it's own fighter too. Turkey is developing the TFX, which will have a good prospect for exports too, since they will take benefit of European and US development support, as well as of the shelf techs.

very few of that will be operational in the next decade..if you actually break it down then there are just a few options - most others being in development. Why not push our own programs through the various stages of development - who knows, we might reach ISRO's level of competency and cost.

 

[DejanSRB]

You have some points, that doesn't fit though. Russia still shows the skills to develop high techs (no doubt about that), but doesn't have the money to operate such a large force and defence industry as in Soviet times, which is why Indian money is desperately needed, but also why not all the development will find it's ways to Russian military today. The fact that they are now buying Su 30SMs, although they developed Su 34s and 35s for dedicated requirements of the Russian forces, that they buy Mig 29SMTs and not the newly developed Mig 35, or even that they buy the Mig 29K because IN largely funded development and production and shows the lack of money. You can also add the fact, that the government in recent years started to go away from Russian industry and tried to form JVs and co-developments, to get the joint fundings they need to develop and sucessfully produce the products. Be it S1000 sub with Italy, IFVs with France, or even the desperate try to get Brazil on board of the Pak Fa development, all aimed on counter the problems Russian defence industry and Russian forces faces today.

Look mate,it is obviously that Russian military is most powerful after US(and after dissolution of USSR).
And it is obviously that USSR has biggest and most powerful military machine in the world backed by second biggest economy.
Russian economy today is eight in the world.
But to say truth,it is underestimating to say all what Russia has is its Soviet military technology.

And it is obviously too that India will start to boost it own defense industry before it becomes eternal biggest weapon importer in the world.It is better for India to saving money for two years but to start build with that money their own defense industry.It is normal

But all that I have to say if you buy Russian weapons you dont buy just a weapons but buying political support too.

India 1965/71,Vietnam,Syria.....all that countries wouldnt survive if might Soviet/Russian political power not standing behind them.Ende.

 

[sancho]

very few of that will be operational in the next decade..if you actually break it down then there are just a few options - most others being in development. Why not push our own programs through the various stages of development - who knows, we might reach ISRO's level of competency and cost.

Not really, the non stealth aircraft are mostly already available and will continue production at least till the end of the decade. The stealth fighters will only start to come in by the start of the next and most of them before an AMCA would be ready.

As I said, for own programs, you need a requirement. IAF has enough fighters on order and in their plans (MKIs, MMRCA, LCA, FGFA), IN plans with the Mig 29K and sadly wastes time and money for the N-LCA. For exports as said above.
We have missed a lot of chances to team up with other countries, to increase the chances of own programs. Airbus for example was interested in joining LCA and would had been a great push, not only for the development of the fighter, but also for export chances. An AMCA development with Brazil would had been great, since we have similar operational needs in the coming years, not to mention that we messed it up on deeper ties to them on AWACS as well. And even in Asia, we failed to impress countries to join us, which is why Indonesia went to S. Korea to join them on thre KFX, rather than joining us on PMF or AMCA with us.

 

[sancho]

Look mate,it is obviously that Russian military is most powerful after US(and after dissolution of USSR).
And it is obviously that USSR has biggest and most powerful military machine in the world backed by second biggest economy.
Russian economy today is eight in the world.
But to say truth,it is underestimating to say all what Russia has is its Soviet military technology.

It is "today" but only because we include the numbers bought under the Soviet time! But that's the past, take the recent years to account, the trouble that Russian forces have to maintain and modernise their fleets (aircraft and naval), as well as the pace that China is catching up and you know that Russia won't remain 2nd for long on their own, not even till the end of this decade!
How many Su 35s, 34s or Mig 35s did they exported? How many Kamov 52 or Mi 28s? And then compare it to the exports of arms and techs developed in Soviet times, Mi 8 / 17 helicopters, Mi 24/35 helicopters and of course older Mig and Flanker versions. The fact is, Russian exports are dependent on the old stuff, while they fail to export their new stuff, especially if you take out the exports to India or China.

But all that I have to say if you buy Russian weapons you dont buy just a weapons but buying political support too.

India 1965/71,Vietnam,Syria.....all that countries wouldnt survive if might Soviet/Russian political power not standing behind them.Ende.

Today you see Indian political support for Russia, just as you might see Indian troops moving towards Chinese borders, if China threatens Russia one day. So that again is mainly the past, while the current situation especially for India is different. Today we are far less dependent on Russia, which doesn't mean we don't want them anymore, but that the relation has changed. W see them as a partner now, not just a supporter at certain interests and in a partnership, you need to find a common ground for both interests of course.

 

[DejanSRB]

How many Su 35s, 34s or Mig 35s did they exported? How many Kamov 52 or Mi 28s?

Alot of Russian military experts recommended to Russian Ministry of Defence that weapons like SU 35,s400,mig35 and Kamov,Pantsir.... shouldnt go on export list becouse it is top notch of Russian technology.
Russian Ministry of Defence DONT WANT to export that weapons.
Even Turks shows a great interest to buy s400 instead Western counterparts.

China is catching up and you know that Russia won't remain 2nd for long on their own, not even till the end of this decade!

Not agree with you.
I highly respect a great Chinese shift in economics and military,but China cant build a top notch military with 180 billion per year without their own tech,but Russia have its own tech and 100 billion of Russian military budget is enough to modernize its machinery.Russia have basis of its military power while China and India must build its basis.

It is like,you have apartment who needs renovation and you have 10000 bucks in your wallet,but I dont have apartment and have 50000 bucks in my wallet,you can easily renovate your apartment with 10000,but I need to save 50000 more to buy new apartment for myself.

When i buy new apartmen i will live more comfortable then you,but I need to work to save another 50000 dollars.

I hope that you understands the point of my story.

100 billion is enough to maintain its forces
180 is not enough to build entires military.

 

[Storm Force]

Indian and Russian GDP is about the same now.

We see only USA as a superpower now.

Potentially China soon.

Russia has was a great ally but today the lack the technology that we need.hence our increasing cooperation and order book going to Israel France and USA

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Wonder how Russia sees this betrayal

 

[DejanSRB]

@Storm Force

Geopolitics isnt weather.
You can't say what will be in geopolitics for next three months,not even for next 50 years.
In geopolitics the term "Potential Superpower" doesnt exist,only exist term "Superpower","Great Power,"Middle Power"...

We see only USA as a superpower now.

who are "WE" ?India?Who?


The world is on the multipolar road.With maybe 4-5 great geopolitical centers.
I notice one thing on this forum,it is too frequent using of "Superpower" word.

Do you realize that only three countries in the world history was superpowers?GB,USSR and USA.
Term "Superpower" isnt for anyone.