After F-16s

[Best of the Best]

Originally posted by melb4aust@Jan 27 2006, 03:11 PM
Dont mind but i would have to say there's no need to start the new thread just to ask this question. There are so many topics about F 16's. There's one with the name F16 updates started by PPF, U would have ur questions there.

But any way it is mentioned in different posts as well as it is on the web news that pakistan is infact was buying the mix of old and new F16's.

[post=5673]Quoted post[/post]​

secondly i have had some disturbing inside news on the PAF and i have heard that after oct 8 earth quake the US is not allowing PAF to go for brand new sparking block 50/52 and for me that isnt a good news soo i am worried......

 

[A.Rahman]

Originally posted by Sam@Jan 27 2006, 01:12 PM
I have had some disturbing inside news on the PAF and i have heard that after oct 8 earth quake the US is not allowing PAF to go for brand new sparking block 50/52 and for me that isnt a good news soo i am worried......

[post=5682]Quoted post[/post]​

any Idea why the change of mind all of sudden?

 

[EagleEyes]

Originally posted by Sam@Jan 27 2006, 01:12 PM
I do mind you telling me what to do and what not too soo plz kindly keep your suggestions to your self secondly i have had some disturbing inside news on the PAF and i have heard that after oct 8 earth quake the US is not allowing PAF to go for brand new sparking block 50/52 and for me that isnt a good news soo i am worried......

[post=5682]Quoted post[/post]​

The inside news is correct. ACM is currently having trouble getting those funds.

By the way, does this gives us a chance to finally go for another kind of aircraft in the future? Because politically nobody in Pakistan want to get the aircrafts which are now being retired.

The goal for PAF to keep the F-16 fighters being the front line fighters looks correct thats why there is an opposition on this F-16 deal and also due to funds, though before the earth quake even with the funds there were some opposition.

 

[Bejoy Samuel]

I wonder if the political parties will oppose any such deal. For example during the civilian administration of Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto comibned, there weren't too many significant military acquisitions. However whenever the Army has been in power, acquisitions have been made.

I am raising this because it is said that in 2007 Musharraf has to make way for democracy, so the political parties may be able to influence it then?

 

[Best of the Best]

Originally posted by Bejoy Samuel@Jan 28 2006, 03:38 PM
I wonder if the political parties will oppose any such deal. For example during the civilian administration of Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto comibned, there weren't too many significant military acquisitions. However whenever the Army has been in power, acquisitions have been made.

I am raising this because it is said that in 2007 Musharraf has to make way for democracy, so the political parties may be able to influence it then?

[post=5690]Quoted post[/post]​

The thing you have pointed out is surely correct and i have to agree with you on that because the new goverment which comes into power always cancels the purchases the previous goverment makes but who knows after 2007 pushraff might enter into politics as a civilian after he gives up his army chief statues and this might be possiable now going back to the topic F-16's especially the new ones would have made an excellent stop gap or better to say a fighter jet which could or can perform its job very well but F-16 is not important becoz its out of the world 4 generation fighter jet no that is not the reason the actua reason is thats its a true multirole fighter jet which can easily be purchased by the PAF can do or any mission assined to it and we already have an excellent infrastructure for it and it can be inducted at a very fast pace....

In my opinion PAF does need brand new F-16 airframes with top of the line systems on it this jet is our urgent need so i still believe PAF should go for atleast 55 brand new air frames and few old ones and give the current fleet of F-16's a MLU upgrade they would solve a lot of problems plus there tech could be applied on the JF-17 which is in the pipe line anyways we do need F-16's and another 4 generation fighter jet besides it....

 

[Kaiser]

The PAF should be makin the top Military priority of Pakistan as it is in Israel. We need a powerful fleet of Aircraft to counter India's airpower. The PAF should go for a fleet of 200-250 JF-17's, 125 F-16's, and possibly 75 new fourth generation fighters (Most likely to be Gripen).Out of the 125 F-16's atleast 75 of them should be Blcok 50 & 52 and the rest should be MLU.

 

[Zeeshan S.]

^

PAF getting 75 new fourth generation fighters is really highly unlikely. You have typically made a wish list, without caring about the funds, availablity, maintenance, cost, or effectiveness.

Indeed there is a need for a strong air force, but following Israel is rediculous. Israel is a tiny country, with tiny army, so it needs a strong air force to counter the enemy which is far away for example Iran or Syria. This is the reason they have the qualitive air force.

PAF should have the same case but Pakistan is highly depended on the army, and the generals not much focus on PAF for some reasons even though aircrafts and technology is needed to defend the army.

 

[ISI2003]

Originally posted by mysterious@Jan 28 2006, 05:09 PM
^

PAF getting 75 new fourth generation fighters is really highly unlikely. You have typically made a wish list, without caring about the funds, availablity, maintenance, cost, or effectiveness.

Indeed there is a need for a strong air force, but following Israel is rediculous. Israel is a tiny country, with tiny army, so it needs a strong air force to counter the enemy which is far away for example Iran or Syria. This is the reason they have the qualitive air force.

PAF should have the same case but Pakistan is highly depended on the army, and the generals not much focus on PAF for some reasons even though aircrafts and technology is needed to defend the army.

[post=5698]Quoted post[/post]​

in modern war, air war is critically vital
the government suggested PAF modernization is going to be limited at $15 Billion

the Aquistion of f-16's is limited to $3-4 Billion, the cost of a single JF-17 is 15 Million, and the PAF chief suggested going all the way up to 250 planes to replace the f-7's, a-5's, and mirages

also PAF is going to require infastructure to maintain these planes, and arm them

finally PAF will be modernizing the SAM network (an there are 10 vital zones, which require modern air defense; layers of chinese copies of s-300V (hq-15), type 95 AAA/SAM, SD-10, and the swedish Short Range RAMBE-23 (15km) SAM (this costs $5.5 Billion)

also there needs to be a modernization of C4ISR; AWACS, ELINT, possibly refuelers (hinted at by the Air chief) and actually in the ground command centers in which to coordinate with all other services; these costing in the neighborhood of $2-3 Billion
---------------
so before the other fourth gneration fighter the costs are going to be around 14.25-16.25

so to forfill the modernization the government will probably have to raise that limit of $15 Billion, but they would only to that to acquire the next plane, and not go all out

so that leaves a low price purchase to maitian the 440 combat aircraft numbers (125 f-16, 250 JF-17, and 65 ???)

the best option therefore is the 30 Million dollar J-10; and for 65 planes that is a resonable $1.95 Billion
==============
and that totals $16.2-18.2 Billion, close to the hoped cost of 15 Billion (but wait, rememebr that $1 billion is us Aid will cover some cost, and government will try to save a few million in each deal), so the real range is probably $15-17 Billion (within reason of the hoped limit)

65 J-10
125 F-16
250 JF-17
Awacs
Elint
Refuelers
Modern SAM Network
Modern C4ISR

all within the PAF's modernization budget

 

[Kaiser]

I would choose the Gripen over the J-10 anyday. The Gripen cost only 35 Million and is better than the J-10 (30 Million). Gripen has one of the best Data-Linking systems on the Planet, the Gripen was made to counter Soviet Made SU series by using its superb data-linking to distract the Su-30 while another Gripen would Fire its missile 50 Miles away.

If the PAF goes for the Gripen (wich I think they will) then we will have a much stronger force than if we go for the J-10.Another option would be to go for 50 Raphales or Eurofighters (better than 65 gripens) to counter the Indian Sukhois.

 

[Best of the Best]

Originally posted by Kaiser@Jan 29 2006, 05:36 AM
I would choose the Gripen over the J-10 anyday. The Gripen cost only 35 Million and is better than the J-10 (30 Million). Gripen has one of the best Data-Linking systems on the Planet, the Gripen was made to counter Soviet Made SU series by using its superb data-linking to distract the Su-30 while another Gripen would Fire its missile 50 Miles away.

If the PAF goes for the Gripen (wich I think they will) then we will have a much stronger force than if we go for the J-10.Another option would be to go for 50 Raphales or Eurofighters (better than 65 gripens) to counter the Indian Sukhois.

[post=5709]Quoted post[/post]​

Sorry but i must tell you that anything which the JAS-39 Gripen can do the F-16 can do it better.......if we are going for F-16's then why turn towards something which is inferiour to a plane you are already buying the only thing good about the gripen is that it has a advance Data-link and a nice cockpit layout and thats it where as it known for a fact that Gripen use's majority of american parts in it plus it is underpowered i am fairly against going for Going for gripen PAF should rather go for J-10 the only good thing about buying gripen is axcess to european weapons like Meteor Mica etc etc but like i said Gripen is inferiour to F-16 so why go backward instead of moving forward and no gripen is 45 million per copy not 35 mil..

 

[Thunder]

Right now with the earthquake thinge, PAF is'nt even gonna go for F-7s let alone F-16s. Wait a few more months or years till something is done. This also gives PAF to make up it's mind if they really want viper that badly, or will JF-17 would be able to do the trick ?

 

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jan 29 2006, 07:42 PM
Right now with the earthquake thinge, PAF is'nt even gonna go for F-7s let alone F-16s. Wait a few more months or years till something is done. This also gives PAF to make up it's mind if they really want viper that badly, or will JF-17 would be able to do the trick ?

[post=5718]Quoted post[/post]​

PAF is going to go for both the Viper and JF-17. The Vipers have been delayed know cause of the earthquake for only a few months as confirmed by many news sources.

 

[Best of the Best]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jan 30 2006, 02:12 AM
Right now with the earthquake thinge, PAF is'nt even gonna go for F-7s let alone F-16s. Wait a few more months or years till something is done. This also gives PAF to make up it's mind if they really want viper that badly, or will JF-17 would be able to do the trick ?

[post=5718]Quoted post[/post]​

Sorry to intrude but F-16's was the number 1 plane on PAF's wishlist and when they are finally getting a chance why wouldnt they buy it and what do you mean that if they need the viper badly damn it man Viper is needed badly especially now since IAF has its hands on top of the line weapons from all around the world.

 

[Thunder]

[/B]

Originally posted by Sam@Jan 29 2006, 07:56 PM
top of the line weapons from all around the world.

[post=5720]Quoted post[/post]​

And do you really think that viper without AIM-9X and the latest radar would be able to take on a MKI? Please. I know that our pilots are the in the top 5 trained pilots in the world but they still need something good to fight with. When PAF 1st got viper it was 1982, back when the indians only had MIG-29 or maybe mirages. And the viper is better then both these planes so PAF thought that if we buy more vipers then we would have techonalgy edge over india again. But then we got sacntioned. And know what, in the 90s the indians finally got smart and got the SU-30 customized to fit theor needs. The result was SU-30MKI.

And the MKI is better then F-16s. If we buy more vipers now then it'll give migs and mirages a hard time but not MKI. So unless in wartime our cruise missiles can hit MKI air bases before they take off. It's going to be a hard air battle

 

[Best of the Best]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jan 30 2006, 11:58 AM


And do you really think that viper without AIM-9X and the latest radar would be able to take on a MKI? Please. I know that our pilots are the in the top 5 trained pilots in the world but they still need something good to fight with. When PAF 1st got viper it was 1982, back when the indians only had MIG-29 or maybe mirages. And the viper is better then both these planes so PAF thought that if we buy more vipers then we would have techonalgy edge over india again. But then we got sacntioned. And know what, in the 90s the indians finally got smart and got the SU-30 customized to fit theor needs. The result was SU-30MKI.

And the MKI is better then F-16s. If we buy more vipers now then it'll give migs and mirages a hard time but not MKI. So unless in wartime our cruise missiles can hit MKI air bases before they take off. It's going to be a hard air battle

[post=5740]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

And do you really take PAF for a fool that they would buy F-16's without Aim 120 B's or C's AIM 9X and HMSC and sorry F-16 can shoot down a MKI just like an MKI can shoot a F-16's its not only about the plane but the whole package including the ECCM and ECM suite rader electronics and stufff and in the end it all come to the pilot whose in the cockpit.

if a F-86 can shoot down indian mig-21 which at that time was way superiour then the saber then why cant an F-16 take on an MKI since you said something prove it technically even a JF-17 can be as deadly to an MKI as it can be to it especially in a BVR scenario tell me MKI is a huge machine takes two man to oprate has a RCS as big as an elephant even in cope india 2005 there were two engagements in which out of those two the MKI shot an F-16 and in the other F-16 shot an MKI so tell what makes you say MKI is soo superiour okay it has it advantages but it also has huge set backs.

with JF-17...F-16 and another 4th generation aircraft from lets say 40 to say 60 in number i wouldnt even bother talking about MKI or its so called 200 MRCA contract.....