Abandoning status as "Islamic Republic"

[Musafir117]

The basic idea is whether you believe in a secular Pakistan and a secular society (same rules/values/constitution for all relgion people Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Ahmadis, Shias, Sunnis). It is not just a name change but more then that. Essentially it is about whether you believe in Secular values or not. So what do you believe in?

Basically the state would treat everyone equally irrespective of religion. It does not matter to state whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Ahmadi or Shia or Sunni. The state rules have nothing to do with your religion.

Should I add your name in that list who believe in having a secular Pakistan and Secular society in Pakistan?

State have no business with religion, the current name nothing but to make fool public both Seculars and Islamists. The law is Islamic and actions are Seculars.

 

[timetravel]

State have no business with religion, the current name nothing but to make fool public both Seculars and Islamists. The law is Islamic and actions are Seculars.

So you want secular law and secular name for Pakistan? If so I would happily add your name.

 

[farhan_9909]

I Agree that it should either be "Republic of Pakistan" or "Islamic Pakistan"

 

[Bouncer]

If you intend to bring secularism in your country, hafeez Sayeed and his army will be your most fierce rival. Or prove me otherwise. You will be surprised and hugely mistaken if you think Hafiz sayeed will allow secular values to be promoted in Pakistan.

Your whole fight for secularism, starts from fighting against Hafiz style people. If you and seculars have to win, someone will also have to loose - and that someone will be people like Hafiz, Lal Masjid cleric and others like them. Someone's win is always someone's loss.

No offense but your knowledge about Hafiz Saeed and his "influence" seems to be based on reports from Indian media entirely. He is not that important to anyone in Pakistan except for maybe some elements who still think they can get back Kashmir through "jihad".

Despite its policies, Pakistan army is a largely secular organization. People like Brig Ali who were found associated with some Islamist khilafat type group get sacked immediately. My point is that Hafiz Saeed is a product of old thinking. He is becoming less and less useless and more of a liability to PA everyday.

And as someone else pointed out, its not Hafiz Saeed we have to worry about. Its people like Abdul Aziz (red mosque), Fazlu Rehman and countless other mullahs who have influence and work for foreign currencies.

 

[Ussaid]

No offense but your knowledge about Hafiz Saeed and his "influence" seems to be based on reports from Indian media entirely. He is not that important to anyone in Pakistan except for maybe some elements who still think they can get back Kashmir through "jihad".

Despite its policies, Pakistan army is a largely secular organization. People like Brig Ali who were found associated with some Islamist khilafat type group get sacked immediately. My point is that Hafiz Saeed is a product of old thinking. He is becoming less and less useless and more of a liability to PA everyday.

And as someone else pointed out, its not Hafiz Saeed we have to worry about. Its people like Abdul Aziz (red mosque), Fazlu Rehman and countless other mullahs who have influence and work for foreign currencies.

Most Pakistanis will stone people to death if they insult Islam or Muhammad SAW. It is a horde of "normal" folks who burned down a Ahmadi mother and her two daughters alive in their house after their son posted offensive stuff on FB.

 

[Bouncer]

Most Pakistanis will stone people to death if they insult Islam or Muhammad SAW. It is a horde of "normal" folks who burned down a Ahmadi mother and her two daughters alive in their house after their son posted offensive stuff on FB.

I was replying to the other guy who was sure that Hafiz Saeed is the most fierce rival to secularism in this country.

Ordinary people follow their local mullah. A minority does believe that slightest blasphemy (proved or otherwise) is punishable by death, but a vast majority does not. Why you don't see this vast majority in action is a point to ponder. Scared? Apathetic? Maybe both.

Point is that once you control mullahs and their influence, at the state level, it will be easier to turn ordinary citizens away from these things.

 

[timetravel]

I was replying to the other guy who was sure that Hafiz Saeed is the most fierce rival to secularism in this country.

Ordinary people follow their local mullah. A minority does believe that slightest blasphemy (proved or otherwise) is punishable by death, but a vast majority does not. Why you don't see this vast majority in action is a point to ponder. Scared? Apathetic? Maybe both.

Point is that once you control mullahs and their influence, at the state level, it will be easier to turn ordinary citizens away from these things.

Hafiz Sayeed is the same as the Mullahs in having extremist views. Whether he has huge followers or less followers is something that can be debated. But by the look of his rallies and hate speeches and the Millions the Pak govt. granted to him, I can say he is more influential than even the Lal Masjid cleric.

Do you know his organisation LET is banned as one of the most hard core terrorist group in world. He has millions dollar bounty on his head by UN. What indicates to you that he supports secularism? I would say he is one of the icons of extremism. I would doubt you can find a more hardcore extremist then him.

He has one of the biggest following and has great influence. He also knows about the school incident. So what action/speech has Hafiz given against the Lal Masjid Cleric or against the Mullahs? Tell me when has he attacked extremism ever? only thing he did and still does is promote hatred against India and train Jihadis. How can someone who train Jihadis be regarded an anti extremism.

 

[Menace2Society]

Loved OPs post.

Pakistan urgently needs to make a distinct separation between governance and religion.

The reason why western societies are so functional and at peace is because they no longer let the Church decide what is best for their people.

Religious people of all ilk are incredibly biased and extreme in their views. Like with all addictions, religiosity is an addiction and becomes a poison.

Its like letting a heroin addict run a country, it just does not work.

Pakistan needs to remove the bias from its decision making and you do this by forcing religion behind closed doors. Freedom of religion ofcourse will remain but religious beliefs which become anti-state should not be tolerated. The maulanas in Pakistan have taken advantage of this and wrecked the society and look at its state know, ethnic and sectarian divides everywhere.

 

[magudi]

Most Pakistanis will stone people to death if they insult Islam or Muhammad SAW. It is a horde of "normal" folks who burned down a Ahmadi mother and her two daughters alive in their house after their son posted offensive stuff on FB.

Well an example should be made out of such cases by giving stringent punition to the mobsters. I've read that in a similar incident recently where a Christian couple have been burned alive accusing them of blasphemy more than 50+ people have been arrested and bought to justice. When the law of that land is allowed to take its course against such barbaric brutalities - people's faith in System will be restored.

 

[SQ8]

Maybe you ought also inform this to the Ahmadis whose mosques are demolished by the cops in Punjab or their grave stones defiled by people mixed with cops, or the HIndus in Sindh whose women are kidnapped.

Before you term it a Law and Order problem understand the mechanics of it.

On the one hand, the State encourages all the people(97% Muslim), that Pakistan is for Muslims. The State shouts this from every rooftop and every window, that Pakistan is for Islam and Muslims.
Add to it that it teaches in school that Pakistan was hard won by Muslims after struggling against the evil Hindus and Christians.


This automatically puts one kind of thoughts in the 97% of the population where they see the rest as 'enemies of Pakistan' and 'enemies of Islam'.

And on the other hand, you say that Pakistanis acting against minorities is a law and order problem.

The law and order problem is flowing directly because of the narrative of the Pakistani State.

Some people take that narrative to extreme levels(some are encouraged by Mullahs) and take action on it, while others dont take it to that level but condone it(an example being the Judges in Sindh High Court letting the kidnappers free because per them the girl converted 'voluntarily' and that must be 'encouraged').

Sure they were.. at the same time I suppose the many Ahmedis in Business, government and in the military should also be worried. So should Shias and all the like. Your problem is that you can sit in India and pass sweeping statements without knowing the ground reality.. to what extent the problem is, what social strata it effects and so on.

The rest of the post making the rather laughable assumption that somehow the state being Islamic is the huge issue is not even worthy of a serious thought in my view; as if renaming things suddenly changed their actual nature.

 

[Musafir117]

So you want secular law and secular name for Pakistan? If so I would happily add your name.

I'm always with my Quaid the great Mohammad Ali Jinnah, it's better for us to read again and again his first speech in first assembly session of new born Pakistan.
Mr. Jinnah's address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan

You are free; you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed—that has nothing to do with the business of the State.
Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (may peace be upon him). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in rights, dignity and self-respect. Consequently, we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it.
Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

 

[SQ8]

Do you want to live in a Hindu/Jewish/Christian Nation as its Muslim Doctor/Accountant?

if No then you are essentially doing to others what you don't want to be done to yourself. No problems for a common person like you and me, but this does not reflect good on a person like Jinnah. Such thinking cannot be part of a great leader. And if Jinnah had such thinking then I can accept him as a common person, but he is not even remotely close to being a great world leader.

If yes, then why make separate Pakistan? I am sure Hindus would have treated Muslims better, then how you are treating Non Muslims.

What is wrong with these professions? by contrast the guy leading the independent JF-17 squadron is a Christian.. As I said again, sitting across the border and watching your news you have little idea on the ground realities and what social strata is truly effected by bigotry and what is not.

Jinnah never had Pakistan called Islamic republic. .. and whatever reflects on him is irrelevant.. he is DEAD.. his idea of Pakistan is DEAD...whatever Pakistan has to become now has little to do with Jinnah's vision and the sooner Pakistanis realize that the sooner they will come to terms with reality.

 

[Ussaid]

Sure they were.. at the same time I suppose the many Ahmedis in Business, government and in the military should also be worried. So should Shias and all the like. Your problem is that you can sit in India and pass sweeping statements without knowing the ground reality.. to what extent the problem is, what social strata it effects and so on.

The rest of the post making the rather laughable assumption that somehow the state being Islamic is the huge issue is not even worthy of a serious thought in my view; as if renaming things suddenly changed their actual nature.

It is called a "step".

And just mention "Ahmadi" to any person in Pakistan, and prepare yourself for all the hatred they will release. Just recently a family was burned because of blasphemy.

Mob attack over alleged blasphemy: Three Ahmadis killed in Gujranwala - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

 

[SQ8]

I think he was watching too much Indian Media.

Their media feeds them a fake picture and the mob mentality gives them a rather delusional idea of Pakistan. Somehow they are all under the impression we live on trees and wear leaves.. along with the skullcap. Ive stopped wasting my time with them except the few I deem worthy enough or open minded enough to accept a viewpoint.
The rest are just self centred trolls on high horses whom we tolerate on this forum because we want to ensure that we dont end up like their discussion forums in which they cannot even tolerate a slight negative.

If you want to truly meet, connect and know Indians.. real life is better.. 90% of what is on PDF is their proverbial intellectual trashbin and sadistic trolls.

 

[Ussaid]

Their media feeds them a fake picture and the mob mentality gives them a rather delusional idea of Pakistan. Somehow they are all under the impression we live on trees and wear leaves.. along with the skullcap. Ive stopped wasting my time with them except the few I deem worthy enough or open minded enough to accept a viewpoint.
The rest are just self centred trolls on high horses whom we tolerate on this forum because we want to ensure that we dont end up like their discussion forums in which they cannot even tolerate a slight negative.

If you want to truly meet, connect and know Indians.. real life is better.. 90% of what is on PDF is their proverbial intellectual trashbin and sadistic trolls.

I assume you live in the US? So ofc you know how lower middle class life is in Pakistan.