Abandoning status as "Islamic Republic"

[timetravel]

Sure they were.. at the same time I suppose the many Ahmedis in Business, government and in the military should also be worried. So should Shias and all the like. Your problem is that you can sit in India and pass sweeping statements without knowing the ground reality.. to what extent the problem is, what social strata it effects and so on.

The rest of the post making the rather laughable assumption that somehow the state being Islamic is the huge issue is not even worthy of a serious thought in my view; as if renaming things suddenly changed their actual nature.

Agree changing name alone will not make any difference.

It needs to be a complete change - Name, Constitution, Education System.

 

[SQ8]

It is called a "step".

And just mention "Ahmadi" to any person in Pakistan, and prepare yourself for all the hatred they will release. Just recently a family was burned because of blasphemy.

Mob attack over alleged blasphemy: Three Ahmadis killed in Gujranwala - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

release it will, in fact.. the Qadiyani sect has it worse off than say someone who openly says they are Jewish. But the same cannot be said for Christians or Hindus in different strata of society. One has to look into how poverty adds to the level of persecution that one may face.. the excuse for that can be religious intolerance or that of ethnicity.

I assume you live in the US? So ofc you know how lower middle class life is in Pakistan.

You assume too quick. I live in the US, but I lived most of the years of my life in Pakistan till say 6 months ago. So yes, I do know a LOT about the lower middle class life in Pakistan.

Agree changing name alone will not make any difference.

It needs to be a complete change - Name, Constitution, Education System.

The latter will take AT least 10 years.. if not more.. in those 10 years will the changes survive? .. will that initial change be accepted at all?

 

[Bouncer]

Hafiz Sayeed is the same as the Mullahs in having extremist views. Whether he has huge followers or less followers is something that can be debated. But by the look of his rallies and hate speeches and the Millions the Pak govt. granted to him, I can say he is more influential than even the Lal Masjid cleric.

Do you know his organisation LET is banned as one of the most hard core terrorist group in world. He has millions dollar bounty on his head by UN. What indicates to you that he supports secularism? I would say he is one of the icons of extremism. I would doubt you can find a more hardcore extremist then him.

He has one of the biggest following and has great influence. He also knows about the school incident. So what action/speech has Hafiz given against the Lal Masjid Cleric or against the Mullahs? Tell me when has he attacked extremism ever? only thing he did and still does is promote hatred against India and train Jihadis. How can someone who train Jihadis be regarded an anti extremism.

Let me explain since you are mentioning Hafiz Saeed by name. I never claimed that Hafiz Saeed or his likes are pro-secularism. You have to make a distinction between Hafiz Saeed and people like Abdul Aziz.

Hafiz Saeed is respected because his organization does charity work (debatable) in some parts of the country. Secondly he fights for the Kashmiris. The second part makes him your terrorist (India's), not Pakistan's. He definitely had the patronage of PA in the past, not sure about now.

Abdul Aziz on the other hand is a revered (to some sections of the society) religious cleric. His speeches, fatwas from his organization can change minds of common people. He is an educated guy who knows how to manipulate media to his gain.

Hafiz Saeed is expendable. His fate hangs on establishment's policy towards India. Just like the erstwhile good taliban who switched sides and became bad taliban are now expendable. Abdul Aziz is the by product of a disastrous Islamisation campaign of Zia. People like him are not expendable and are not easy to get rid of.

Of course there is a lot of resistance to the idea of a secular Pakistan. But its not Hafiz Saeed that Pakistani secularists have to worry about. People like him will disappear once the establishment changes its policy. But people like Abdul Aziz will stay to fight.

 

[Ussaid]

release it will, in fact.. the Qadiyani sect has it worse off than say someone who openly says they are Jewish. But the same cannot be said for Christians or Hindus in different strata of society. One has to look into how poverty adds to the level of persecution that one may face.. the excuse for that can be religious intolerance or that of ethnicity.


You assume too quick. I live in the US, but I lived most of the years of my life in Pakistan till say 6 months ago. So yes, I do know a LOT about the lower middle class life in Pakistan.



The latter will take AT least 10 years.. if not more.. in those 10 years will the changes survive? .. will that initial change be accepted at all?

Sure. Everything in Pakistan is just flowers and butterflys, and we are totally not into bestality ****, Google is ofc spreading Jewish funded lies! Nothing needs to be changed and we must accept our descend into fundamentalism. P.S Did you knew a few months ago a Christian Church was bombed up killing people in double digits? I didn't saw it much on the media, because infidels. Yeah I assume too quick because your location is the USA

 

[Red Spinifex]

Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia etc are much


Jinnah used Horses for courses strategy in his struggle for pakistan! the result is this ever lasting confusion !!

I see. Is it possible to achieve a secular Moslem state?

 

[punit]

I see. Is it possible to achieve a secular Moslem state?

next to impossible. their best bet is to follow Indonesia or Malaysia.

 

[Ussaid]

I see. Is it possible to achieve a secular Moslem state?

We will create a new example

 

[Red Spinifex]

We will create a new example

The Malaysian or Indonesian models seem good examples of states for Moslems rather than Islamic states. Nonetheless, they have their problems, too, of course. Turkey is another example.

 

[Indian_Devil]

Isn't that the whole point of an opinion? A thought on something?

A right is a right and a wrong is a damn wrong... Arguments like 'single lane processes' or 'Hypothetical scenarios' are just an ambiguous or equivocal way of talking....
From my point of view, you are right..

 

[timetravel]

Let me explain since you are mentioning Hafiz Saeed by name. I never claimed that Hafiz Saeed or his likes are pro-secularism. You have to make a distinction between Hafiz Saeed and people like Abdul Aziz.

Hafiz Saeed is respected because his organization does charity work (debatable) in some parts of the country. Secondly he fights for the Kashmiris. The second part makes him your terrorist (India's), not Pakistan's. He definitely had the patronage of PA in the past, not sure about now.

Abdul Aziz on the other hand is a revered (to some sections of the society) religious cleric. His speeches, fatwas from his organization can change minds of common people. He is an educated guy who knows how to manipulate media to his gain.

Hafiz Saeed is expendable. His fate hangs on establishment's policy towards India. Just like the erstwhile good taliban who switched sides and became bad taliban are now expendable. Abdul Aziz is the by product of a disastrous Islamisation campaign of Zia. People like him are not expendable and are not easy to get rid of.

Of course there is a lot of resistance to the idea of a secular Pakistan. But its not Hafiz Saeed that Pakistani secularists have to worry about. People like him will disappear once the establishment changes its policy. But people like Abdul Aziz will stay to fight.

I may agree that right now the fight could be against Abdul Aziz, and once he is taken out, Hafiz can be handled later.
So the assertion here being that Aziz is a bigger mole then Hafiz. So its about removing extremist elements one by one, and prioritizing on who needs to be taken out first.

But I hope you know that both are detrimental to a secular society and ultimately both need to be eliminated for secularism to succeed. Till he goes away, he is doing same work as Abdul Aziz as far as spreading extremism grows. Only thing is he runs additional charity in addition to his Jihadi training to youth. Clearly both needs to be taken down. Pakistani society would be better off without both of them. Running charity organisation does not allow you to train Pakistani youth to become Jihadis on the side.

You will agree the cost of charity cannot be radicalization of society.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Zarrar]

Maybe it is time to abandon our status as the "Islamic" "Republic" of Pakistan, and return to our secular roots which were planned by the fathers of the nation. Pakistan was created because Jinnah and co were afraid that in a Hindu dominated Country, there would always be episodes of violence and disagreement between the two chief religions, as Muslims of India had grown to become an almost different culture. Thus Pakistan was created so that the Muslims and Hindus can live in peace alone. Pakistan was created because the Muslim League felt the new "Hindus"tan would not be secular enough, not because it wouldn't be "Islamic" enough. Do we want to end up like the Middle East?

Also, it is embarrassing how many people believe in ridiculously stupid Jewish conspiracy theories, and hate Jews so much without having ever having seen one in their entire lives. Can a mature, mentally healthy human being actually believe such far fetched stories? Is this the result of one or two generations of cousin-cousin breeding? The reality is every year hundreds, if not thousands of non-Muslims are persecuted and harassed all along the country, but our sympathies are only for Palestine and non-existent dead Muslims in Burma and India. Isn't it ridiculous how people in Pakistan want women to "cover" themselves up, yet Google confirms the most number of pornographic searches are from Pakistan. Google also confirms that South Asia ranks the highest in bestiality searches.

Now people are going to be blame me for having such a negative view of my home country, but I am telling the truth, and even if the truth is not something that was told to us through biased text books. Media doesn't report such incidents because they are more focused on who Imran Khan wants to sleep with, and they don't have time for a family of murdered Ahmaids, Shias, Chrisitans, Hindus, etc. But of course it is all Mossad's, RAW's and CIA's fault, because they have so much time and resources to waste on us. (Well, RAW is an exception I guess. They all have the time in the world for their little Eastern Sibling)


P.S Removing it won't really affect the economical or the political situation. It would improve the social condition.

Totally agree with you Brother,very few people think on this side of coin...

 

[Ussaid]

The Malaysian or Indonesian models seem good examples of states for Moslems rather than Islamic states. Nonetheless, they have their problems, too, of course. Turkey is another example.

A mixture of Turkey, India and Tunisia.

A right is a right and a wrong is a damn wrong... Arguments like 'single lane processes' or 'Hypothetical scenarios' are just an ambiguous or equivocal way of talking....
From my point of view, you are right..

Totally agree with you Brother,very few people think on this side of coin...

Most people here like dear Horus here love to lick the boots of Arab States even if they in return spit on their faces while they would refuse to present a handshake to India. Maybe it is time to identify our real enemies and friends. People like Horus like to keep things in Pakistan "Islamic" while even THEY don't want to live in Pakistan, instead siting in a secular state like Australia. Height of hypocrisy.

 

[timetravel]

What is wrong with these professions? by contrast the guy leading the independent JF-17 squadron is a Christian.. As I said again, sitting across the border and watching your news you have little idea on the ground realities and what social strata is truly effected by bigotry and what is not.

Jinnah never had Pakistan called Islamic republic. .. and whatever reflects on him is irrelevant.. he is DEAD.. his idea of Pakistan is DEAD...whatever Pakistan has to become now has little to do with Jinnah's vision and the sooner Pakistanis realize that the sooner they will come to terms with reality.

I am not against the profession of Doctor/Accountant either. I meant do you like to stay as a Muslim in a Hindu/Jews/Christian country with Hindu/Jews/Christian constitution.

 

[Indian_Devil]

A mixture of Turkey, India and Tunisia.




Most people here like dear Horus here love to lick the boots of Arab States even if they in return spit on their faces while they would refuse to present a handshake to India. Maybe it is time to identify our real enemies and friends. People like Horus like to keep things in Pakistan "Islamic" while even THEY don't want to live in Pakistan, instead siting in a secular state like Australia. Height of hypocrisy.

Exactly... the day we both identify our real enemies, next day we will be and also Developed countries...

The second part makes him your terrorist (India's),

May I clear your doubts... that 'Sir Haafiz Saed' is an International criminal as identified by US...

 

[timetravel]

Exactly... the day we both identify our real enemies, next day we will be and also Developed countries...

Easier said then done. You can see on this forum itself, the ones wanting real change are outnumbered 15-1.
As for the Pak. govt. They have SO FAR not taken any action against extremism.

Attacking few taliban outposts and giving statement is all they have done post that school attack. Nothing significant, and not directed at root cause of extremism. So far just business as usual by Pak. govt.

Forming military courts will remain only a symbolism unless real culprits are brought to book - Addul Aziz, Lakhvi, Sayeed etc. Let's see whether these courts act to root out extremism or just to punish the bad terrorists and allow the good terrorists to continue their business of extremsism as usual.

Let's see if Pak. govt. does anything in future, or if the secularists can force the govt.