A Rebuttal : Time for shias to leave Pakistan

[explorer9]

I am still wondering how come some of the Indian posters are so insensitive.....Indian posters should really beleive that any kind of social and internal security issues will alsoo create a challenge to India too....India too have good numbers of Muslim brothers and sisters..If the sectarian division in Pakistan will succeed then it may create a -ve impact on our Muslim population.....

@Argus...I will rephrase your words and i think you will like it...You should say that Pakistan is for Pakistanis only...every people of your nation should consider them as Pakistani first and then religious division....Terrorists have no religion or sects....Just crush them with brutal force so that they will learn a lesson about not to fight with your nation.....

One must understand the Muslim societies first, nationalism has never been the identity of Muslim societies, and it is rather a new concept ingrained by west after the First World War. Arab nationalism, Turkish Nationalism, Kurdish Nationalism etc are the byproducts of western imperialism and likewise nationalism in Muslim countries has also completed its full cycle and it will die with the fall of Al-Assad regime in Syria (only Persian nationalism supersedes the Islamic identity).In Muslim societies the identity starts with Islam and goes further inside with sect/ethnicity/ tribe / clan.

In my view most of the Pakistanis do not identify themselves primarily with geography rather by religion and its tributaries and national identity comes later.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/235831-time-shias-leave-pakistan.html

zardari is leaving pakistan

no he is praying for 5 more years

 

[explorer9]

no he is praying for 5 more years

with cross folded hands

 

[Irfan Baloch]

with cross folded hands

yes some bigots justify the shia killing by claiming that he is a shia although he is not. but when you got people who believe that shia soldiers killed 1500 sunni soldiers at Red mosque because they refused to attack the Burka brothers and then Shia soldiers attacked Red Mosque and killed and raped the students then what else can you expect?

its a justification to hate allege someone is a cross dresser or gay or whatever just to add wight to the insult

people also call Gen Kyani as shia or Ahmedi just because he is leading his army fighting the TTP/ Taliban fanatics. Gen Musharraf also got the same allegation who all are actually sunni.

 

[qaisar52]

No. Pakistan is a home for Shias and Sunnis alike, as it is for all minorities too.

It is time for the killings to stop, that is all.

First of all Shias are not minorities, they are 35% second after Baralevies and minorities are Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Ahmadis.
I hope this misunderstanding has go out now. Like when Saddam was rulling Iraq every one think that Iraq has Shia Minority, but the case was against.
Thanks.
And Its time to tell these rats who is killing the people of pakistan on the name of islam to leave or to be hunted.

 

[niaz]

this post contains some hard facts and is not ment to hurt any one..

A Rebuttal : Time for shias to leave Pakistan

Yu'n to syed bhi ho, mirza bhi ho, afghan bhi ho, Tum sabhi kuch ho, bataao to musalmaan bhi ho ?

one feels more anger than sadness when u read the heading of the article/blog (forget the rest). how can one even think of such when u consider the following facts:

- The president is shia
- the ex prime minister was shia and was at the post for 4 years+
- the senate chairman is shia
- the speaker of national assembly is shia
- chief minister sind is shia
- chief minister gilgit baltistan is shia.
- last president of azad kasmir was shia
- numerous shia ministers in key ministeries both at the center and in all proviences.
- numerous shias heading different committes both in the senate and national assambly.
- numerous shias in the civil services.

shias to put it mildly have been in power for almost 5 years now.

- we have had atleast 4 shias as PM
- we have had at least 3 shia presidents
- army has had at two shia coas, PAF and PN has had its fair share of shia chiefs along with many many officers im all ranks.
- their are/were numerous shias who are/were captains of industries and heading and working in many a org.

Now when u look at the best estimates at the percentage of shia in the population of Pakistan ypu will see that even the best and most generous of estimates dont put their numbers more than 10-18 % (our last census put their nos. in single digits). Now considering their numbers and the facts mentioned above it is very obvious that their religious sect has never been held against them and they have been allowed to florish and prosper.

now we look at the other side of the coin and compare iran with what has been presented above. the no. of sunnis as a percentage of population of iran are at the very very least 20% of the population. their are whole provinces were sunnis are in majority. but can they even consider to achive 50% of what the shias have achived in Pakistan??
i would leave it at that and not go any further......

Now consider this that since the commencement of the war on terror more than 40 thousand Pakistanis have died including a very large no. of security personal and hundreds of thousands got injured. and if not 95% than at the very least 90% of all those killed and injured were sunnis.
a very large majority of these are from the tribal area and the worse part is that it happens on a daily basis largly due to drone attacks. some of the major attacks that come to mind are

- strike on a madrassa in 2006 killed up to 69 children in a total of 80 civilians killed.
- 2011 a drone attack killed at least 40 members of a Wazir tribal Jirga.
- Chromite mining camp in the mountains near Datta Khel was attacked in 2006 killing 22 miners.

the above is a glimps of whay happens on a daily basis but have u heard any one say that our tribe is being wipped out hence we should leave the country. eeven though most tribes have had hundreds if not thousands of their members killed and are being killed. quite a few have become refugees in their own land. have they blocked roads across pakistan to bring it to stand still ????

100s of sunnis across Pakistan have been killed on daily basis but never heard any one say that they should leave the country. more so their have been numerous bombings in which 100 of sunnis died in single incidents but no hardly even put the blame on any shia. just to refresh the memory:

in 2006 in nishtar park a sunni itthad convention was attacked killing 50+ sunnis, u dident see sunnis around pakistan blocking roads and bring life to a stand still or any one giving the call to leave pakistan.

in light of the above it cant be that shia and specially the hazara are "maman" (guests) in pakistan and here temperarly. as they need to understand pakistan in a state of war (4th gen) where like the rest of Pakistan they too are paying a price.
if Pakistan is to prosper and if we all have to move forward than every one has to share their burden and do whats in the interest of Pakistan, even if it means that personal interests are compramised. other wise the hazara need to prepare as they are not only surrounded from all sides but are also out numbered 20-1.

It is so easy to brand anyone who is not a Wahhabi or Deobandi, a Shia. I can't say for sure how much of the above is correct.

An ex colleague's family home is next to Mr Gilani's family home in Multan and I can confirm with certainty that Yusuf Raza Gilani is not a 'Shia'.

Yusuf Raza Gilani is from the line of Syed Abdul Qadir Gilani and the great Ghous e Azam was also not a Shia.

 

[KS]

One must understand the Muslim societies first, nationalism has never been the identity of Muslim societies, and it is rather a new concept ingrained by west after the First World War. ......In Muslim societies the identity starts with Islam and goes further inside with sect/ethnicity/ tribe / clan..

Offtopic..but what about India ?

yes some bigots justify the shia killing by claiming that he is a shia although he is not.

Wait, so is Zardari not a Shia ?

Yusuf Raza Gilani is from the line of Syed Abdul Qadir Gilani and the great Ghous e Azam was also not a Shia.

Wait again, so Yusuf Gilani is also not a Shia ?

 

[BATMAN]

It is so easy to brand anyone who is not a Wahhabi or Deobandi, a Shia. I can't say for sure how much of the above is correct.

An ex colleague's family home is next to Mr Gilani's family home in Multan and I can confirm with certainty that Yusuf Raza Gilani is not a 'Shia'.

Yusuf Raza Gilani is from the line of Syed Abdul Qadir Gilani and the great Ghous e Azam was also not a Shia.

I swear to Allah.. i met Gilani's kids at my Shia friend's place, that was some where in 2007 or 2008.

I have mentioned that episode on this forum at many occasions...

I will not disclose more...

 

[Armstrong]

One must understand the Muslim societies first, nationalism has never been the identity of Muslim societies, and it is rather a new concept ingrained by west after the First World War. Arab nationalism, Turkish Nationalism, Kurdish Nationalism etc are the byproducts of western imperialism and likewise nationalism in Muslim countries has also completed its full cycle and it will die with the fall of Al-Assad regime in Syria (only Persian nationalism supersedes the Islamic identity).In Muslim societies the identity starts with Islam and goes further inside with sect/ethnicity/ tribe / clan.

In my view most of the Pakistanis do not identify themselves primarily with geography rather by religion and its tributaries and national identity comes later.

Thats actually a very astute observation & one, as far Pakistan is concerned, is fairly accurate ! Geography doesn't mean much to us, much to the disbelief of many, Islam does. Regrettably some elements & their sympathizers in the society are exploiting that to no end - Something we must deal with if Pakistan is to survive.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Offtopic..but what about India ?




Wait, so is Zardari not a Shia ?



Wait again, so Yusuf Gilani is also not a Shia ?

like Niaz has already explained No they are not
there are syeds who are not shias but are Sunnis, even the head of Jamat Islami is a syed mumawar hassan and he is not a shia but belongs to Sunni faith.

one of the clear difference is the way shia and sunni offer prayers, sunnis cross their hands whereas shias do it with open hands
Yousuf Raza Gilani is the Gadi Nasheen (heir to a Sufi Sunni line of saints)

some ignorant fools have even called Gen Kyani as Shia as well just because he is fighting the holy Taliban. today if you talk against the taliban or religious terrorists then you are either a shia or ahmedi or some nonMuslim because these are the usual targets of religious terrorists.


following is the pciture of father and son on funeral prayer of Hakim zardari the father of Asif Zardari

the hate agaisnt shias is normally justified due to the false claim that Zardari is a shia. but he is not. even if he was that doesnt change a thing because he is a moron, he would have been a moron if he was a hindu, wahabi or christian just like Hafiz saeed still would have been a troll and a bigot if he was a hindu

 

[KS]

Thank you @Irfan Baloch.

All these days I was led to believe that both AAZ and YRG were Shias by numerous pakistani posters who claimed as such.

 

[A.Rafay]

The extremists can go to Afghanistan and fight each other or whatever they do but leave the peaceful shias of Pakistan, they are not harming anyone, Shia should come up with their own militias.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Thank you @Irfan Baloch.

All these days I was led to believe that both AAZ and YRG were Shias by numerous pakistani posters who claimed as such.

its not just these posters but its a common mistake made by people who open their sentence

such and such guy is very currents and by the way he is an Ahmedi or he is a shia
it just shows an underlying bigotry and hatred
like opponents of women empowerment declare that that all working women are easy picking and are of low moral character

and by the way, in the end, look at the personal character and his deed not his religion. tell me one thing and be honest about it
do you think Indians have any less respect for Nuclear Scientist Abdul Kalam? does any reasonable Indian really care about his faith? okey he is a good person with enviable achievement but I hope you understand what I am getting at.

 

[Cheetah786]

this post contains some hard facts and is not ment to hurt any one..

A Rebuttal : Time for shias to leave Pakistan

Yu'n to syed bhi ho, mirza bhi ho, afghan bhi ho, Tum sabhi kuch ho, bataao to musalmaan bhi ho ?

one feels more anger than sadness when u read the heading of the article/blog (forget the rest). how can one even think of such when u consider the following facts:

- The president is shia
- the ex prime minister was shia and was at the post for 4 years+
- the senate chairman is shia
- the speaker of national assembly is shia
- chief minister sind is shia
- chief minister gilgit baltistan is shia.
- last president of azad kasmir was shia
- numerous shia ministers in key ministeries both at the center and in all proviences.
- numerous shias heading different committes both in the senate and national assambly.
- numerous shias in the civil services.

shias to put it mildly have been in power for almost 5 years now.

- we have had atleast 4 shias as PM
- we have had at least 3 shia presidents
- army has had at two shia coas, PAF and PN has had its fair share of shia chiefs along with many many officers im all ranks.
- their are/were numerous shias who are/were captains of industries and heading and working in many a org.

Now when u look at the best estimates at the percentage of shia in the population of Pakistan ypu will see that even the best and most generous of estimates dont put their numbers more than 10-18 % (our last census put their nos. in single digits). Now considering their numbers and the facts mentioned above it is very obvious that their religious sect has never been held against them and they have been allowed to florish and prosper.

now we look at the other side of the coin and compare iran with what has been presented above. the no. of sunnis as a percentage of population of iran are at the very very least 20% of the population. their are whole provinces were sunnis are in majority. but can they even consider to achive 50% of what the shias have achived in Pakistan??
i would leave it at that and not go any further......

Now consider this that since the commencement of the war on terror more than 40 thousand Pakistanis have died including a very large no. of security personal and hundreds of thousands got injured. and if not 95% than at the very least 90% of all those killed and injured were sunnis.
a very large majority of these are from the tribal area and the worse part is that it happens on a daily basis largly due to drone attacks. some of the major attacks that come to mind are

- strike on a madrassa in 2006 killed up to 69 children in a total of 80 civilians killed.
- 2011 a drone attack killed at least 40 members of a Wazir tribal Jirga.
- Chromite mining camp in the mountains near Datta Khel was attacked in 2006 killing 22 miners.

the above is a glimps of whay happens on a daily basis but have u heard any one say that our tribe is being wipped out hence we should leave the country. eeven though most tribes have had hundreds if not thousands of their members killed and are being killed. quite a few have become refugees in their own land. have they blocked roads across pakistan to bring it to stand still ????

100s of sunnis across Pakistan have been killed on daily basis but never heard any one say that they should leave the country. more so their have been numerous bombings in which 100 of sunnis died in single incidents but no hardly even put the blame on any shia. just to refresh the memory:

in 2006 in nishtar park a sunni itthad convention was attacked killing 50+ sunnis, u dident see sunnis around pakistan blocking roads and bring life to a stand still or any one giving the call to leave pakistan.

in light of the above it cant be that shia and specially the hazara are "maman" (guests) in pakistan and here temperarly. as they need to understand pakistan in a state of war (4th gen) where like the rest of Pakistan they too are paying a price.
if Pakistan is to prosper and if we all have to move forward than every one has to share their burden and do whats in the interest of Pakistan, even if it means that personal interests are compramised. other wise the hazara need to prepare as they are not only surrounded from all sides but are also out numbered 20-1.

Can You Refute This

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The extremists can go to Afghanistan and fight each other or whatever they do but leave the peaceful shias of Pakistan, they are not harming anyone, Shia should come up with their own militias.

and that will be a total desaster because then they will loose any sympathy from majority sunnis and SSP and LeJ will even kill more and will get open support from everyone, by then even police and security agencies will join LeJ and kill shias

shias tried to do that in the 90s by making Sipah Muhammadi that was made to confront the Sipah Sahabah but it was quickly eliminated by collaborated help between Sipah Sahabah and the state and Shias are still paying the price of that shia militant organisation. although the sectarian killing is clearly one sided and there is only one victim but due to sipah muhammadi a politically correct narration was adopted for describing sectarian killing (of shias) as shia sunni killing.

although shias argue that sipah muhammadi only targeted the leaders of sipah sahabah who had walked from from courts and boasted about killing dozens of shias but since those shia militants had taken law in their own hands and they represented the weak group so the hammer of justice was very swift and today they only exist in old press archives

while Malik Ishaq is now getting ready to contest national assembly elections from the rebranded party called Ahl Sunnatwal jamat after seat adjustment with Nawaz league (one who requested TTP to spare Punjab) he is one who had all his witnesses and their families executed while in the court for murdering over 70 shias himself and the judge had to let him go because there was no witness left alive to testify against him.