A Mughal goes to Pakistan to renew blood ties

[Peshwa]

Very true. From what I heard, Sikhs were present in the Marathan armies, and fought the Mugals and the British.

Wrong....

In fact the later Sikh rulers were probably as vary of the Marathas as the Mughals were....mainly because the Marathas were quite brutal from what I have read...
Sikh territiories were heavily raided and taxed....also one of the reasons why the Marathas suffered a defeat in Panipat.....
Fighting in Sikh lands with no support, supplies or logistics meant that the Marathas were on their own...

Had the Marathas and Sikhs co-ordinated their efforts.....Indian history including the advent of the English would have been markedly different...

PS: Sikh Gurus did have respect for Marathas during the time of the Gurus with Guru Gobind Singh (I might be wrong) wanting to align with Shivaji....I think the Guru even died in Maharashtra en-route to meet the Maratha king
(Iqbal...can you please correct me if Im wrong above?)

 

[Peshwa]

Indeed the technological advantage was on Baburs side but to say that that was it, no other reason is wrong. Lodi could have easily surrounded the tiny mughal army, however ironically the opposite happened. Babur was patient, he chose the location of the Battle, he made Ibrahim attack, he had his strategy planned out, whilst Ibrahim just attempted a brute force charge. The mughal cannons were protected by a chain of wagons, another innovative idea of Babur. At the end of the day the better general won.

You know Ive read this....but can never visualize how it provides an advantage...can someone with a better understanding explain how this gave Babur an upper hand?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Wrong....

In fact the later Sikh rulers were probably as vary of the Marathas as the Mughals were....mainly because the Marathas were quite brutal from what I have read...
Sikh territiories were heavily raided and taxed....also one of the reasons why the Marathas suffered a defeat in Panipat.....
Fighting in Sikh lands with no support, supplies or logistics meant that the Marathas were on their own...

Had the Marathas and Sikhs co-ordinated their efforts.....Indian history including the advent of the English would have been markedly different...

PS: Sikh Gurus did have respect for Marathas during the time of the Gurus with Guru Gobind Singh (I might be wrong) wanting to align with Shivaji....I think the Guru even died in Maharashtra en-route to meet the Maratha king
(Iqbal...can you please correct me if Im wrong above?)

Very true! The Marathas antagonized the Jatts and Rajputs as well.
Naturally they withdrew their support at Panipat.

However,Its intersting to note,where the Marathas failed the Sikhs succeed(against Afghans)

Where the Afghans succeeded(Against British) the Sikhs failed.

 

[Kambojaric]

The Mughal downfall can be attributed in a large part to the abandoning of the secular policies during Akbar's time that made the Mughals popular...
Rajputs and other Hindu rulers remained loyal to the Mughals until the reign of Aurenzeb whos policies reversed all the advances made by his ancestors

Hmph, agree with some parts, disagree with others. Did you know that there were more Hindu mansabdars largely Rajputs during the reign of Aurangzaib as compared to Akbar. I am willing to concede that Aurangzaib did aggravate Hindus with some of his policies but you also have to keep in mind that Akbar wasnt actually the secular angel he is made to be either. Aurangzaib overextended the resources of the Empire, no doubt and that i would say is the biggest problem he left behind for his successors.

 

[Kambojaric]

You know Ive read this....but can never visualize how it provides an advantage...can someone with a better understanding explain how this gave Babur an upper hand?

Well basically he had a ditch dug and a chain of wagons placed above it so when the large mass that was the Sultunate army charged onto the Mughal army they first had to jump down into the ditch, climb up, find themselves on one side of a barrier being shot at by Mughal matchlocks. Gaps in between the wagons ensured Mughal cavalry could assist any area in danger of falling. Whilst this was going on the large chunk of the Sultunate army was just standing in a huge mass behind the ones attempting to break the chain of wagons. Then came the Horshearchers, they surrounded the Sultunate army on both sides, so you had cannons being fired into the middle as well as arrows form the side and the large part of the Sultunate army is just standing helpless there.

 

[Iqbal_Brar]

If you haven't got anything good to say then don't say anything at all.

thats the problem with the world.... loll... only people that will listen these days are like-minded people and a veryyy rare breed of neutral people.. most others have already made up their decision no matter how much you try to show your view to them they will close their ears...

 

[Desert Fox]

Mughals were turly warriors better than our jatts and Rajputs. But later Marathas and Sikhs really fought back.

That's because the Mughals intermixed with the locals, they no longer were the fierce Turkic warriors who were known for their deadly horseback archery and destruction of everything that was in their way!

 

[Iqbal_Brar]

And why would i tell an indian punjabi in the internet the name of my pind in Punjab province of PAKISTAN, that my ancestors lived for generations. I lived most of my life outside my ancestral village but still the zameen of my father, grandfather, and great-grandfather in the village will eventually go to me. You have absolutely nothing in Pakistan's Punjab province. Even a Baloch (who has not even a drop of Punjabi blood) can buy property in Pakistan's Punjab province but you indian punjabis can not.

By the way, everyone who knows me knows I'm more fluent in Urdu than Punjabi. I even talk in Urdu with my elders in the village and they respond in Punjabi. Go to any cafe in Lahore and Rawalpindi and hear what language the youth speak with one another. Most of the time you'll hear Urdu.

And why would I lie about being Punjabi. We Punjabis are the largest ethnic group in Pakistan. Most of Pakistan army is Punjabi, most of Pakistan government officials are Punjabi, most of ISI is Punjabi, its not like you indian punjabi who make just 3% of your country's population. We Pakistani Punjabis are Pakistani nationalists. Theres hardly any punjabi nationalists, most Pakistani Punjabis are Pakistani Nationalists.

you're all talk only... go to Faridkot zilla and ask anyone from pind Kharra all the way to Fakarsar in Muktsar of the jagirdars of the area and they will tell you exactly to the gates of my grandfathers house.. heck go to google and type in Raja Wazir Singh Brar and you will get an idea of what it means having a long tribe history with the land.. that is what it means to be jagirdars or zameendars.. you wouldn't know that.. u can't even answer 3 simple questions... as i saidd before.. vadda aya zameendar..

Pakistan's Punjab province doesnt even have 1% Sikh population. 98% of the population in Pakistan's Punjab province is Muslim. And the largest minority in Pakistan's Punjab province is Christian. Even if you combine Sikhs with Hindus, that wont even make 1% in Pakistan's Punjab Province.

yeaa wonders of partition... go to lahore and you will see enough Sikh history if thats what you want... infact forget Lahore.. go from hasan abdal to zilla nankana sahib to gujranwala to sialkot to multan to faisalabad to jungarh in NWFP and you will see all major historical marks of Sikhs.. just because partition happened does not mean we do not know about all sides of pakistani punjab.. chappa chappa patta aiii tuhade punjab da.. and why did this start in first place?? oh right because you're in denial or you're faarrr from reality.. the reality that choorey chamaar (untouchable dalits) also exist in pakistani punjab.... i do not know if you seriously don't know that.. if you REALLY are punjabiii please go ask your mommy daddy or grandfather about choorey chamaar... because obviously you are clueless about your own country...

We Muslim Punjabis have our own homeland, Pakistan, the name a Muslim Punjabi Chaudhry Rahmat Ali gave to us. Our heros are Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Allama Iqbal, and Chaudhry Rahmat Ali. For you indian punjabis your hero is ranjit singh.

We've got a long list of heroes and martyrs spanning back 700 years of history... so you don't worry about us...

We Pakistani Punjabis want you indian punjabis to make your Khalistan out of your side of Punjab, Haryana, and Himachal Pradesh more than anyone in Pakistan. It was Punjabi Zia Ul Haq who supported the Khalistan movement and it was the Sindhi Benazir Bhutto who helped india destroy the Khalistan movement. We want you indian punjabis to make your Khalistan so we have a friendly border like we have up north with China. So if you really want to please us Punjabi Pakistanis then you should work hard in making your Khalistan. Go on now and quit being obsessed about my people because we are more than happy with Pakistan and being Pakistani.

pipe dreams that anyone can be obsessed with you... we just know your ugly reality which you try to hide behind a pardah... that is what probably scares you most.... i know you are obsessed with our Khalistan but you just take care of your own country it needs more of your attention at this time... khalistan is none of your business to be sticking your nose in.. totally our business...

 

[Iqbal_Brar]

Yes Sikhs were fierce warriors, we all know that, nevertheless a good general can defeat any army. My point is that the Mughals themselves were responsible for their own downfall. The desperate reforms that were needed werent happening. More and more power was given to nobles who were mostly corrupt and only served their own factions purposes (Syed Brothers). As mentioned the Turani/Irani nobles constantly fighting. A strong king could have brought a stop to this but that king never came.

Agree.. after Aurangzeb the Syed Brothers pretty much ran the show.. one emperor after another.. the Mughals lost whatever stability they had under Aurangzeb.. the Rajputs also largely revolted.. which probably were biggest weapons of Mughals..

 

[Iqbal_Brar]

Wrong....

In fact the later Sikh rulers were probably as vary of the Marathas as the Mughals were....mainly because the Marathas were quite brutal from what I have read...
Sikh territiories were heavily raided and taxed....also one of the reasons why the Marathas suffered a defeat in Panipat.....
Fighting in Sikh lands with no support, supplies or logistics meant that the Marathas were on their own...

Had the Marathas and Sikhs co-ordinated their efforts.....Indian history including the advent of the English would have been markedly different...

PS: Sikh Gurus did have respect for Marathas during the time of the Gurus with Guru Gobind Singh (I might be wrong) wanting to align with Shivaji....I think the Guru even died in Maharashtra en-route to meet the Maratha king
(Iqbal...can you please correct me if Im wrong above?)

From what I know... Guru Gobind went to Nanded, Maharasthra (it was already considered one of holy sites since Guru Nanak had gone through here on his way to Sri Lanka to preach his teachings) to reconcile with Emporer Bahadur Shah who at that time was in Deccan and punish the Nawab of Sirhind, who was against the Sikhs, and was responsible for brutally killing the Guru's youngest sons. Bahadur Shah didn't want to go against Wazir Khan... so the guru sent one of his best generals.. Banda Singh Bahadur.. to go topple Nawab of Sirhind by force... in less than 3 months Banda Bahadur made an army and even though he was still heavily outnumbered (Wazir Khan declared Jihad against Banda Bahadur so all other muslim kingdoms in vicinity like Malerkotla and others all went to war against Banda Bahadurs army).. eventually Wazir Khan was killed and Sirhind was captured.. at that time it was one of richest Mughal provinces... after Sirhind fell... that is really when Sikh power began to grow because now they had enough money to arm a big army.. and from here Banda Bahadur eventually marched to Lahore... though he was eventually killed by Mughals.. he left behind huge army which eventually brought Mughals (and later Afghans) to their knees... and Nanded... it is also said that Guru Gobind Singh ordered that one of his armies be permanently stationed there.. and the Nihangs who to this day live in Nanded have never left... they are still following Guru Gobind's orders.. they are Punjabis but heavily mixed with local population now.. you should visit Nanded.. it is unique mix of Punjabi and local culture... they also have huge stock of historical weapons kept there.. even Guru Gobind's personal weapons..

 

[Gabbar]

Mughal Emperor Zafar’s descendant to visit Pak Sikh shrines to seek forgiveness​

Attari, Dec.6: A descendant of former Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar has said that she will go to Pakistan to seek forgiveness in Sikh shrines there. “My life has changed after I had visited the Golden Temple in 2004 to seek forgiveness for the atrocities committed by my ancestors – the Mughal Emperors on Sikh gurus,” said Sultana Begum, the great grand daughter-in-law of Bahadur Shah Zafar. Sultana Begum has been living a life of penury on the pavements of Kolkata.

She told ANI on Monday before leaving for Pakistan via the Attari-Wagah border that she was getting Rs.400 as pension earlier, but the government had now raised it to Rs.6000 per month. She also claimed that President Pratibha Devisingh Patil had given her assurances about providing her with a house.

She said that after her return from Pakistan she would meet Congress president Sonia Gandhi and the Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh.

Sultana has led a harsh life, especially after the death of her husband, Prince Mirza Mohammad Badar Bukht in 1980.

She was married to him for 15 years. Badar Bukht was the son of Prince Jamshed Bukht and great grandson of Prince Jawan Bukht who was son of Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar and Crown Queen Zeenat Mahal.

In Mughal history, it maybe recalled that two Sikh Gurus – Guru Arjan Dev and Guru Tegh Bahadur — were tortured and executed on the orders of Mughal Emperor Jahangir and Aurangzeb respectively.

Sultana said her visit to Pakistan had materialized due to the efforts of Pakistani businessman Mughal Imran, said to be another descendant of the Moghuls.

Sultana said Imran had sent her an invitation letter and had arranged all travel formalities for Pakistan.

 

[somebozo]

Indians love to live in past!

 

[Gabbar]

Indians love to live in past!

This thread was started by a Pakistani member plus who dont remember thier past, are bound to make same mistake.

 

[Omar1984]

pipe dreams that anyone can be obsessed with you... we just know your ugly reality which you try to hide behind a pardah... that is what probably scares you most.... i know you are obsessed with our Khalistan but you just take care of your own country it needs more of your attention at this time... khalistan is none of your business to be sticking your nose in.. totally our business...

And how long will Sikhs live without their homeland. Every Religion in the world got a homeland except Sikhism. Muslims have the Middle East, Central Asia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. Christians got Europe, Jews got Israel.

We Punjabi Muslims already got our homeland, Pakistan. We are in every field in Pakistan, western media even refer us as the Punjabi elite

Which country can Sikhs proudly call their homeland. After partition, hindus broke your side of Punjab into three pieces and stole Haryana and beautiful hilly Himachal Pradesh.

So much zulum hindus did to you in 1984, still you are living under hindu rule.

India is more than 80% hindu, how can you call india your homeland.

Better option for Sikhs is to work hard in making Khalistan and then maybe we can even have visa free policy between Pakistan and Khalistan and have long lasting friendship in both sides of Punjab.

We Punjabi Muslims are happily ruling our own land while you indian sikhs are living under hindu rule, they even stole large chunks of your land and invite their fellow hindus to settle in your land, decreasing your sikh population.

 

[somebozo]

Omar you are really on the trigger today..i often wonder when will these slap happy minorities in india will wake up from their false sense of "multi cultralism" and "india superpower" pipe dreams!