A Meeting on Christmas Night Dacca, 25 Dec 1962

[bluesky]

I know Yahya & Bhutto were responsible for this as well but no matter what he asked Indian for help , he worked with indians to break the country in to two parts.
If he were a true leader , he would have kept people together, instead he pitched the idea of independence using India's help .

May I ask precisely when Mujib asked for Indian help? He was arrested on 25 March and was banished to west Pakistan the next day. So, can you guys tell us when did he contact India? Do you mean, he contacted from the jail?

 

[Mage]

Mujeeb was traitor and he was doing treachery much before op searchlight,

but no matter what he asked Indian for help , he worked with indians to break the country in to two parts.

You guys say this without any proof. Whenever he talked about discrimination against Bengalis you guys accused him of this. Jailed him for Agartala conspiracy which was never proven. You had to withdraw the case. He was arrested in 25th March. He didn't even get the chance to contact the Indians. It's the other Awami league leaders that contacted India. Your claim have no credibility. He faught for Pakistan in the 40's when Bhutto, Yahya were nowhere. Now They are patriot and Mujib is the traitor?

Can we go forward without losing our passion but also without personal animosity?

Sure, dada/jethu.

 

[Max]

Jailed him for Agartala conspiracy which was never proven

Yeah it never happened. you should believe this despite your own Awami leaders accepted it, since it suit you..

we will believe what we want to believe.

 

[rohailmalhi]

It's the other Awami league leaders that contacted India.

And he sat quietly in the corner and let those politician does the bidding. If he was so much patriot as you want us to believe , he would have taken a very strict action against all those or atleast he should have given a clear cut statement that at no cost will AL or people will India to interfere in the internal matters of Pakistan. But guess what it never happened.

He faught for Pakistan in the 40's when Bhutto, Yahya were nowhere. Now They are patriot and Mujib is the traitor?

Do you call a person patriot or traitor if he does nothing even though he had alot of power to do so. Mr Mujib had won a the election with majority, he could have easily avoided all this if he truly was patriot to Pakistan.
Getting some jail time and some facing some harsh condition , though they were wrong , made him turn from a true patriot to a traitor . well good leader suffer alot, while they struggle.

 

[Mage]

Yeah it never happened. you should believe this despite your own Awami leaders accepted it, since it suit you..

we will believe what we want to believe.

You believe what Awami league says? They say what they say for political agenda. Fact remains, the case was withdrawn by Pakistani Supreme court. Hence never proven.

And he sat quietly in the corner and let those politician does the bidding. If he was so much patriot as you want us to believe , he would have taken a very strict action against all those or atleast he should have given a clear cut statement that at no cost will AL or people will India to interfere in the internal matters of Pakistan. But guess what it never happened.

Do you call a person patriot or traitor if he does nothing even though he had alot of power to do so. Mr Mujib had won a the election with majority, he could have easily avoided all this if he truly was patriot to Pakistan.
Getting some jail time and some facing some harsh condition , though they were wrong , made him turn from a true patriot to a traitor . well good leader suffer alot, while they struggle.

What would AL leadership would have done? Sit idle while people die? Pakistani army were killing Bengali people like GTA game. Our survival was at stake. You want us to die without trying anything? Mujib maybe, could've averted this if you guys allowed him to speak. But he was jailed and none approached him to change the situation. You guy preferred the option to silence us by force. Mujib wad jailed for 10 months. Couldn't Yahya, Bhutto met him to reach any solution? Where was the effort from Patriotic West Pakistani leadership?

well good leader suffer alot, while they struggle.

He wasn't the only one suffering. It was Bengali people that were suffering and perhaps more than him.
Btw AL leadership didn't declare independence either. It was done by a certain Major of Pakistan Army, who never had any connection with Awami League. And it was the military presence in support of Bangladesh which encouraged AL leadership to pursue Indian help. This what made them hope that maybe we can do it. India didn't create Mukti Bahini. Your irrational action did. India just took advantage of it.

 

[Max]

You believe what Awami league says? They say what they say for political agenda. Fact remains, the case was withdrawn by Pakistani Supreme court. Hence never proven.

you can believe what suits you, but don't force your propaganda on me.

At a point when the streets of Dhaka became a hot bed of turmoil, Sergeant Zahurul Haq, 17th accused in the case, was mercilessly shot to death while in confinement in Dhaka Cantonment. The news of his death led a furious mob to set fire to the State Guest House as well as other buildings. S.A Rahman, Chairman of the tribunal, and Manzur Quader, chief lawyer on the government side, who were then residing in the guest house, evacuated secretly. Some of the files concerning the case were burnt to ashes. In the face of the mass movement, the Ayub government was ultimately compelled to withdraw the Agartala Conspiracy Case on 22 February 1969. All the accused, including Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, were released unconditionally. On the following day (23 February), a grand public reception was accorded to the accused at Paltan Maidan in Dhaka where Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was vested with the appellation of 'Bangabandhu'.

http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Agartala_Conspiracy_Case

 

[rohailmalhi]

Btw AL leadership didn't declare independence either. It was done by a certain Major of Pakistan Army, who never had any connection with Awami League

An extract from an article from DhakaTribune to refresh your memory.

The video also mentions that Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman did not want Bangladesh’s independence; he sought autonomy. The Government of Bangladesh strongly rebuts such baseless and unfounded narratives

Nothing can be farthest from the truth than claiming that the architect of independent Bangladesh Sheikh Mujib did not want the country’s independence or that Bangladesh’s independence was declared by anybody other than the great leader himself, the secretary said, warning that any such misadventure from Pakistan or for that matter any quarters in Pakistan would threaten normal ties.

The Pakistan high commissioner was reminded that Bangabandhu’s historic speech delivered on March 7, 1971 in which the statement “The struggle this time is the struggle for our freedom, the struggle this time is the struggle for our independence” bears testimony to his intention for Bangladesh’s independence. He was also reminded that Bangladesh’s long freedom movement culminated in the declaration of independence by Bangabandhu on March 26, 1971 and Pakistan’s subsequent surrender in Dhaka on December 16, 1971.

http://www.dhakatribune.com/banglad.../10/31/zia-declared-bangladeshs-independence/

This should clear your misconception about Mr. Mujib and about his loyalty with Pakistan.

Couldn't Yahya, Bhutto met him to reach any solution? Where was the effort from Patriotic West Pakistani leadership?

They did wrong, absolutely wrong denying Mr Mujib to form a Govt . No one here is justifying their wrong doing. What they did was absolutely wrong .

But they being wrong , Mr Mujib , a true patriot according to you , turned to a traitor for Pakistan by taking help from Indians against Pakistan.

Mujib wad jailed for 10 months

It was not before 25th March , but look at the article in which your own Govt rep said that Mr Mujib on 7th March talked about the independence of Bangal from Pakistan. That was the reason he was put in Jail.

 

[Joe Shearer]

May I ask precisely when Mujib asked for Indian help? He was arrested on 25 March and was banished to west Pakistan the next day. So, can you guys tell us when did he contact India? Do you mean, he contacted from the jail?

You guys say this without any proof. Whenever he talked about discrimination against Bengalis you guys accused him of this. Jailed him for Agartala conspiracy which was never proven. You had to withdraw the case. He was arrested in 25th March. He didn't even get the chance to contact the Indians. It's the other Awami league leaders that contacted India. Your claim have no credibility. He faught for Pakistan in the 40's when Bhutto, Yahya were nowhere. Now They are patriot and Mujib is the traitor?


Sure, dada/jethu.

Their firm and grounded belief is that there was a conspiracy going on for years between disloyal (future-)Bangladeshis and Indian intelligence services to break up Pakistan.

Your firm and grounded belief is that this kind of thing can be argued out reasonably. It can't. The whole question of belief in Pakistan is grounded immovably in the development of a concept of Pakistan by the deep state elite, and this is not subject to questioning by anyone else; those who question it are known as 'liberal' terrorists. In Pakistan, in India and even in Bangladesh, 'liberal' is a word of abuse. It indicates that those individuals or groups are not as fanatically dedicated to that particular nation-state as they might possibly be. Only the maximum is acceptable; generally believing in the state is not enough. You must worship the state as the hyper-patriot does: there are different models in the three different nations, in India, the prevalent model today is the extreme model that is being evolved by the BJP under the influence of the RSS, but there are similar models in Pakistan and in Bangladesh as well. Bottom line is that you must not question authority: the authority of the state is reflected in the authority of the government, something completely different, and the authority of the government is reflected in the authority of the political party in charge, and finally the authority of the political party in charge is reflected in the leadership of the political party. In other words, as a famous sycophant once said, 'India is Indira, Indira is India', or the functional equivalent.

So here you cannot argue with a Pakistani patriot who says that Mujib was conspiring against the state of Pakistan. Not because you don't have logic and reason on your side, you most probably do, but because you will be asked who needs logic and reason, when there is this conviction of being right? The conviction, the faith is good enough; nothing else is needed. When you argue that Mujib had no time to conspire, you will get in return a disbelieving stare: the national line is that he did, so what else do you want?

Yeah it never happened. you should believe this despite your own Awami leaders accepted it, since it suit you..

we will believe what we want to believe.

That is why using logic, reason and historical evidence is pointless. 'Our minds are made up, why are you confusing us with the facts?'

And he sat quietly in the corner and let those politician does the bidding. If he was so much patriot as you want us to believe , he would have taken a very strict action against all those or atleast he should have given a clear cut statement that at no cost will AL or people will India to interfere in the internal matters of Pakistan. But guess what it never happened.

They are talking about a time when Mujib was already in jail. They were talking about a time when a full-scale massacre had started. It is naive to think that anyone, after 24 years of being kicked around, with a clear electoral result discarded, with bodies on the streets, would think first about the integrity of Pakistan, and not first about the security of his people. It is easy to understand a Pakistani point of view that even in the face of these extreme conditions, the Bangladeshis should have insisted on sorting things out internally, but it might not have looked quite so obvious to the Bangladeshis of the time. This was Tikka Khan in his worst, most murderous form. He did not inspire patriotism; fear, revulsion, terror, yes, patriotism, no.

Do you call a person patriot or traitor if he does nothing even though he had alot of power to do so. Mr Mujib had won a the election with majority, he could have easily avoided all this if he truly was patriot to Pakistan.

This was the election that he won, and this was the election that was set aside. What precisely could he have done? Gone over the heads of Yahya and the Martial Law Administration, and insisted on being Prime Minister?

Getting some jail time and some facing some harsh condition , though they were wrong , made him turn from a true patriot to a traitor . well good leader suffer alot, while they struggle.

Certainly that was an option. Stay safely in jail while hundreds were being killed, and come out later and proclaim that all was well. Please consider for a moment: how much credibility would he have had left? How many elections would he have won after that stand? Harsh conditions? People were being shot. How many of you Pakistanis prescribing this would have agreed to the same things being applied to the people sitting-in, demanding the resignation of the Law Minister, in the recent troubles? Nobody wanted bloodshed then, but the thought of the bloodshed that actually happened in East Pakistan bothers nobody.

 

[Max]

That is why using logic, reason and historical evidence is pointless. 'Our minds are made up, why are you confusing us with the facts?'

Their own leaders have accepted that agartala case was true and charges brought against the accused were not false yet he is clinging to withdrawal of case which was withdrawn bcoz of political turmoil.. so your blabbering should be directed at others not me.

 

[Green Arrow]

Thanks for the sane reply without any abuse or insults (which is quite rare here, I'm sure you agree )

I guess the article (which I quoted) says that the Pakistan government started supporting those Mujahideens which later formed the Talibs. So in short, Pakistan did play a role in forming it.

I could be wrong though, I'm open to change my opinion if there's a strong reason for it, just saying.

No those Mujahideens were different than the Taliban. Taliban were mostly the young students of the Madrassas with no Afghan war experience. Pakistan did not support or had any contact with Mullah Omar leader of the Taliban during Afghan war. In fact all the current Afghan leadership who are opposed to Taliban are the one who were sheltered and got politics support in Pakistan during Afghan war likes of Hikmat Yaar, Rabanis or even Hamid Karzai who still has house in Peshawar. No Taliban leadership ever visited to Pakistan when they were in power. Afghanistan has only experiencing the peace and stability during Taliban time as they finished the civil war and took control of more than 96% of the country. This led the Pakistan to accept the Taliban government as Pakistan western border was more safe and stable during that time.

 

[Joe Shearer]

An extract from an article from DhakaTribune to refresh your memory.

The video also mentions that Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman did not want Bangladesh’s independence; he sought autonomy. The Government of Bangladesh strongly rebuts such baseless and unfounded narratives

Nothing can be farthest from the truth than claiming that the architect of independent Bangladesh Sheikh Mujib did not want the country’s independence or that Bangladesh’s independence was declared by anybody other than the great leader himself, the secretary said, warning that any such misadventure from Pakistan or for that matter any quarters in Pakistan would threaten normal ties.

The Pakistan high commissioner was reminded that Bangabandhu’s historic speech delivered on March 7, 1971 in which the statement “The struggle this time is the struggle for our freedom, the struggle this time is the struggle for our independence” bears testimony to his intention for Bangladesh’s independence. He was also reminded that Bangladesh’s long freedom movement culminated in the declaration of independence by Bangabandhu on March 26, 1971 and Pakistan’s subsequent surrender in Dhaka on December 16, 1971.

http://www.dhakatribune.com/banglad.../10/31/zia-declared-bangladeshs-independence/

This should clear your misconception about Mr. Mujib and about his loyalty with Pakistan.

And this is precisely the point about all south Asian nations. The nation cannot be questioned; the state, the government of the nation, therefore, cannot also be questioned; the political party, the political group managing the government of the nation, therefore, also cannot be questioned; the leader of the political party, the person giving direction to the political group, finally, cannot be questioned.

The rule of law vanishes, only the personality, and the cult of personality, remains. This is what is happening in Bangladesh; that is the reason for the official statements denying any lack of desire to win freedom.

They did wrong, absolutely wrong denying Mr Mujib to form a Govt . No one here is justifying their wrong doing. What they did was absolutely wrong .

But they being wrong , Mr Mujib , a true patriot according to you , turned to a traitor for Pakistan by taking help from Indians against Pakistan.


It was not before 25th March , but look at the article in which your own Govt rep said that Mr Mujib on 7th March talked about the independence of Bangal from Pakistan. That was the reason he was put in Jail.

Part of the same situation, please note.

Their own leaders have accepted that agartala case was true and charges brought against the accused were not false yet he is clinging to withdrawal of case which was withdrawn bcoz of political turmoil.. so your blabbering should be directed at others not me.

If you do not like what I have to say, that is fine by me. Please do not be coarse; words like blabbering just display your inability to consider issues, rather than persons.

You obviously did not pay attention when I said that this was the habit of every party, of every government, and thereby of every nation in south Asia. They are saying this because they have developed a narrative regarding their independence struggle. You are contradicting them because you have developed a narrative regarding their freedom and regarding the re-definition of your own state after the break-away of part of it.

Whether India, Pakistan or Bangladesh, there is no difference.

 

[bluesky]

Their own leaders have accepted that agartala case was true and charges brought against the accused were not false yet he is clinging to withdrawal of case which was withdrawn bcoz of political turmoil.. so your blabbering should be directed at others not me.

Hasina speaks of and now agrees to Agartala conspiracy because of her own domestic politics. People in BD know Mujib did not pronounce any formal declaration of independence of Bangladesh, but Major Zia did it on his behalf. This does not suit the interest of Awami Leaguers. So, they are talking of an Agartala conspiracy.

If Agartala conspiracy was attended by Mujib, the govt of Pakistan would not have allowed him to run free and later contest in the general election. But, note also that this rumor in those days made him popular and was partially responsible for him to win the election. However, he told many times that he does not want to break Pakistan. He even uttered both "Joy Bangla" and "Joy Pakistan" at the end of his 7th March speech. AL has now edited the words Joy Pakistan successfully.

It was the two rebels, Yahya Khan and ZA Bhutto, who are responsible for the breakup of Pakistan. Mujib only wanted to get a fare share of wealth for east Pakistan. I believe, the convention of Parliament in Dhaka on 25th March would have alleviated much of his pressure given by the AL and student activists. He could have then declared a victory for his struggle because of the 1st Parliament convention was being held in east Pakistan. AL hawks like Tajuddin Ahmed and Syed Nazrul Islam would have lost ground at this point.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

funny thing is that the concept of separate country for Muslim was created by Muslim league party, and the party was created by Bengalis. Most of the Pakistanis either don't know or try to ignore.

Concept of Pakistan was formed in the 1930's by natives of P.A.K.STAN. They believed in the importance of a cultural, ethnic and historical identity as much, if not more than religion.

They never intended Indian Muslims (Muhajirs) or Bengalis to be a part of this state. Infact they proposed Osmanistan for Indian Muslims and Bangistan for Bengali Muslims.

 

[Max]

Hasina speaks of and now agrees to Agartala conspiracy because of her own domestic politics. People in BD know Mujib did not pronounce any formal declaration of independence of Bangladesh, but Major Zia did it on his behalf. This does not suit the interest of Awami Leaguers. So, they are talking of an Agartala conspiracy.

bla blah blah. create your own lies and then believe it. i will not glorify it further.

If Agartala conspiracy was attended by Mujib, the govt of Pakistan would not have allowed him to run free and later contest in the general election.

There are hundreds of people and leaders still alive in Pakistan who were on payroll of foreign agencies and were involve in militancy as well.. some of them are now elected parliamentarians.

It was the two rebels, Yahya Khan and ZA Bhutto, who are responsible for the breakup of Pakistan. Mujib only wanted to get a fare share of wealth for east Pakistan. I believe, the convention of Parliament in Dhaka on 25th March would have alleviated much of his pressure given by the AL and student activists. He could have then declared a victory for his struggle because of the 1st Parliament convention was being held in east Pakistan. AL hawks like Tajuddin Ahmed and Syed Nazrul Islam would have lost ground at this point.

Where did i talked about them, where i said they were innocent?

we were talking about agartala? it seems your history starts with op searchlight and end on Yahya and bhutto? what about this article saying that your scums were dealing with bharti PM since Dec 25, 1962..

 

[Homo Sapiens]

Concept of Pakistan was formed in the 1930's by natives of P.A.K.STAN. They believed in the importance of a cultural, ethnic and historical identity as much, if not more than religion.

They never intended Indian Muslims (Muhajirs) or Bengalis to be a part of this state. Infact they proposed Osmanistan for Indian Muslims and Bangistan for Bengali Muslims.

Those were just proposition.If current Pakistanis were so much into Pakistan cause, then how come Congress+Unionist party formed govt. in Punjab in 1946 and Congress in NWFP? Anyone can propose anything.Even I can propose a Christian majority country in north east India by amalgamating four Christian majority states there.Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram and Nagaland.Make the acronym 'Memamiland' and write a pamphlet about it's glorious future.Does it mean anything to anyone in India or those Christian states? No. Same was with the Chowdhury Rahmat Ali's Pakistan, Bangistan, Osmanistan or Dozen of other 'Stan'.When Bengali muslim made Muslim league the biggest political force representing the muslims, they didn't know about Chowdhury Rahmat Ali or his obscure concept. Lahore resolution, which was the basis of separate muslim state in the sub-continent, didn't mention the name Pakistan at all.This means Lahore resolution was not inspired by what Choudhury Rahmat Ali wrote in 1930.He became relevant and Pakistan name was discovered only when Muslim League searched for a suitable name of their country for which they are agitating.Inventing the name of Pakistan and later it's adoption by Muslim league was a no more than a co-incidence.Pakistan name invention didn't initiated the agitation for a separate muslim state nor driven towards a logical conclusion of it.