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A friend in need is a friend indeed - Turkey, China.

The Pakistanis that you mention are arseholes of the nth degree. They would even sell Pakistan or their own mothers in a heartbeat if any Arap country was in trouble.

Mun changa na huway tey gal tey kam az kam changi kar .......

I think its very unfortunate that there is a fair share of Pakistanis only seeing conservative Turks as their brothers while they call secular Turks ''wanna be Europeans'' etc. even in this very forum.
For Turks there is no question on how to view Pakistan the sentiment is the same whether he is secular or conservative.

I will just say something that is often being ignored but its very saddening to see the salafism spreading in Pakistan which causes the situation i described above, it didnt bring any good for Pakistan and will just make things, if anything, then worse.

Salafism is not spreading in Pakistan.
common Pakistanis just love their Turk brothers, at-least i haven't come across any such thing secular or conservative -- Though i disagree with lots of things with Turks in this forum, but i never i argued with them because for me they are Turks.
 
china athieist, turkey secular, Saudi Arabia Zionist, as time passes the truth becomes more evident just like when a fog dissipates, the view becomes clearer.
Well basically do not take Zionists to be your allies. Even atheists China is better than Zionists.

Well, that sadly is true but trust me "wannabe Europeans" tag is lampooned against Pakistani's who have more 'open outlook'. Indeed that sentiment merely exposes the backward minds of such people. What you must keep in mind is that geography in many ways has been advantageous to Turkey. By being on the cusp of Europe you were exposed to the advances that European Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment. We remained in the dark. Whereas exposure innoculated you and helped to reform your society under Ataturk we remained in the dark. Until one day in walked the British invaders. That was a shock but instead of innoculating and adapting the post colonial period only gave us a reaction. A reactionery thinking that opposed any aspects of Enlightenment.

To be sure the British left behind a small class of educated and progressive individuels. Jinnah, Sir Allama Iqbal etc being good examples. Ayub Khan continued that tradition but by 1970s the reactionery group began to gain traction and the process picked pace as it soon began to recieve Saudi petro-dollars. Salafism mated with reactionery mullahs. The small progressive and powerful elite might have come out on top but the Cold War era geo-strategy favoured cultivating far right reactionery mullahs as a hedge against communists. The Rawalpindi Conspiracy had put the fear of god into the secular elite of a communist plot to take over. With US, Saudi patronage the mullahs were built up and the Afghan jihad of 1980s effectively consolidated the postion of the reactionery mullahs.

By this stage Pakistan had in fact almost fallen under the sway of mullah power. Although they have not ruled the country but their influence has penetrated (akin to Gulenists) into every aspect of the state. Even those who are not religious now are obliged to wear religion on the sleaves.

But I think we have passed the high water mark in about 2014. The ruling elite now understand that the state is in danger if they do not get a grip on the reactionery madness fuelled by salafism. The Pakistani Taliban's open war against the state has woken them up. But a aggregate inertia built up over four decades is not easy now to reverse. It will take time. I am confident in another generation Pakistan will be back on the path toward enlightenment. My confidence is hinged on two things.

The international climate now is not conductive to Islamism. The Cold War era habit of cultivating Islamists against communists is now thing of the past. Even Saudia is looking toward reforming.
Pakistan is now clearly aligned into a emerging Sinosphere. The $65 billion CPEC initiative by China is mainfestation of Chinese long term strategic banking on Pakistan. Pakistan is not seen exactly as a shining star in the west. It has India next door a country that is nearly seven times more populous and has the same asymmetry as Belgium/Germany. Pakistan needs to have a strong external ally. Right now China is the only emerging superpower that can fill that role and you see the dependency which will increase as we move forward on China. That country is a uber-athiest state.

Now think about oil and water. You think rampant salafism and Islamism can go with uber-athiesm? The Chinese will exert their influence and part of that is going to clash with the forces of Islamism. Over the long term Pakistan will be forced to adapt. No Pakistan will not go athiest but expect watering down of the forces of darkness in Pakistan. Certainly secularists like me look on with a satisfied grin on how the 'ironclad' friendship will play out. Oil and water do not mix. Something has to give and I know who is going to have to give.

Read this thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chin...tion-of-muslim-citizens.546917/#post-10296965 how China resolves the issue of Islamists and my post #15.
Are some Turks of European blood anyways. I mean when the Ottomans invaded, its not like they killed all the inhabitants in Eastern Roman Empire.

But remember no such thing as friend in International relations, even the Iron Clad brotherhood. Pakistan should seek to balance dependance on China with Russia or better her own two feet!
 
Either learn to behave as an organism, as a family.. or end the whole deal.
I agree,it is time accept each other as is and start acting like a family before its to late.

Salafism is not spreading in Pakistan.
You sure about that?
What happened when a person "commited" a so called "blasphemy"(ridiculous law) crime?
The police couldnt handle it,the Army had to step in.
 
You sure about that?
What happened when a person "commited" a so called "blasphemy"(ridiculous law) crime?
The police couldnt handle it,the Army had to step in.

You sure all those people were Salafis?

If a person committed blasphemy and it's proven in courts, death is his fate. -- Pak/Turk + whole world seculars/liberals can say whatever they want, blasphemy law is to stay here.
 
Dill tay maghaz changa na howay ta hathh tey munh tey control zarorri hey paijan!

You sure all those people were Salafis?

If a person committed blasphemy and it's proven in courts, death is his fate. -- Pak/Turk + whole world seculars/liberals can say whatever they want, blasphemy law is to stay here.
 
Not sure why only saudia is made a scape goat and not china.
Both of them were thrown the bread crumbs and both happily accepted it, saudia were lured with full vote, and china with vice presidency.

Nothing was thrown at turkey hence they did not feel any need to change from the vote. Who is to guarantee that if turkey was not lured with something they would not have changed their vote like china and saudia did. But yea so far its turkey alone in that 37 member body that got defeated unanimously.

You have no idea about Turkish people!
In Turkey, Pakistan helped Turkey during its worst times. People will never ever forget it. Thats why no matter what, Turkey would of never change it for any reason. Its like a black hole for our honor. No person or government will accept it, especialy those of AKP who remember all of those Ottoman days...
Why Turkey protected Qatar even though Saudi and UAE offered Billions? because, qatar didnt kill any Turkish soldier and wanted to be part of Ottoman.
Why Turkey is investing in Sudan and Somali now?
The same reason!

Pakistan is the most special one among them as people helped with jewelry.
 
Just hope Pakistanis take note of these events for future reference.
 
There are some events that really reveal who is with you, who is just going along for the ride, who is neutral about you and who is against you. So it has been with the recent 37-nation FATF plenary held its first meeting on Pakistan on February 20. In that meeting where three members are required to block a motion Turkey, China and Saudia Arabia moved to prevent the US inspired motion going through against Pakistan. I saw on this thread many pro KSA members going ecstatic that their beloved KSA, the second home of Trump and America's $100 billion friend in Middle East tauting how it had opposed the motion.

However the next day Trump rang his Saudi buddies and lo behold Saudia Arabia flushed Pakistan down the toilet. That left Turkey and China holding the thin line for Pakistan. This left only two votes opposing the motion which is insufficient as minimum of three are required to block. China then made a tactical retreat realizing that it was over and made a tactical withdrawel to 'save face' and abstained from any further action.

That left the Turks all alone holding the line. Like a true warrior nation they stuck out to the last and were alone to oppose the motion when they knew Pakistan's cause was doomed. This reminds me of the saying "a friend in need is a friend indeed". I want members to note this.

How the so called ummah centre KSA buckled and appeased USA. And how a athiest state called China fought for Pakistan; And how the great secular Republic of Türkei stood by Pakistan to the last. Much respect to China and a salute to the glorious Republic of Türkei. Thank you.


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The 37-nation FATF plenary held its first meeting on Pakistan on February 20 where China, "Turkey and Saudi Arabia, which was representing the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), opposed the US-led move to place Pakistan on the watchlist. But the US pushed for an unprecedented second discussion on Pakistan, held on February 22.

By then, Washington had convinced Riyadh to give up its support to Pakistan in return for a full FATF membership. This left only two – China and Turkey – in the Pakistan camp, one less than the required number of three members to stall a move.

At this stage, the Chinese informed Islamabad that they were opting out as they did not want to “lose face by supporting a move that’s doomed to fail”, an official source had told Dawn. “Pakistan appreciated the Chinese position and conveyed its gratitude to Turkey for continuing to support Islamabad against all odds,” the source added."


https://www.dawn.com/news/1392285/g...ed-on-fatf-terror-financing-watchlist-in-june

@xenon54 @T-123456 @KediKesenFare @Attila the Hun @Cybernetics @beijingwalker @Chinese-Dragon

Many Pakistanis and the Pakistani state are publicly supporting Turkey - a Sunni majority country - and Azerbaijan - a Shia majority country - on every international occasion. They do it because we're Turks and their closest partners. But if we support them for being our closest friends and being Pakistani, they need to justify our dostani friendship with religion. Of course, sharing the same religious values is a bonus. Still, we are not supporting the whole Islamic world - we are supporting specifically Pakistan. It is you - the Pakistani nation - we see as a friend and ally. Labels like Pakistani Muslim, Shia, Sunni, Atheist etc. won't change our opinion as long as Pakistani is the first part. In this sense, using the Turkish-Pakistani relationship as an evidence for the Ummah concept won't work unfortunately. I wish the Ummah thing would work but it's not.
 
If a person committed blasphemy and it's proven in courts, death is his fate. -- Pak/Turk + whole world seculars/liberals can say whatever they want, blasphemy law is to stay here.
I agree. But your overlooking the athiests. They have the big stick behind them. What happened when athiests clash with Islamists in Pakistan? Read the Chinese masseuse and Lal Masjid Islamists.

What happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lal_Masjid
 
I agree. But your overlooking the athiests. They have the big stick behind them. What happened when athiests clash with Islamists in Pakistan? Read the Chinese masseuse and Lal Masjid Islamists.

What happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lal_Masjid



Lol...........nothing to do with ideology. The Islamists were just jealous that they weren't getting a massage...........:lol:
 
I agree. But your overlooking the athiests. They have the big stick behind them. What happened when athiests clash with Islamists in Pakistan? Read the Chinese masseuse and Lal Masjid Islamists.

What happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lal_Masjid

I am disappointed at your understanding of the word Islamists (btw I don't believe in the words coined by the west, islamists/jihadists etc.,) --

I don't believe lal masjid dudes to be Islamists but our secular/liberal section (which is very tiny btw) think that anyone talking in favor of blasphemy law is a supporter of lal masjid dudes (some sort of mental disorder I would say).

Your bringing of lal masjid dude in the discussion is totally irrelevant -- So if any time in future, the atheists decide to have some adventure regarding our laws (which I don't think so), we will see and just to remind, we have BIG stick in front of us.

Regarding what happened, don't you know what happened -- whenever our ruling elite (buffoons) have danced to the tunes of ists, Pakistan and Pakistanis have paid the price.
 
we have BIG stick in front of us.
Which is?

don't believe in the words coined by the west, islamists/jihadists etc
Most of the words your using right now were coined by the West as was most of mediums we are using at PDF. That by itself means nothing.

I don't believe lal masjid dudes to be Islamists but our secular/liberal section
I don't believe theses 'dudes' you call 'secular liberals' are that as much as you don't believe the 'Islamists/Jihadists' are that.
 
Which is?

Most of the words your using right now were coined by the West as was most of mediums we are using at PDF. That by itself means nothing.

I don't want to get involve in time wasting useless debate - I have said what I wanted to say. Now if you could plz excuse me, I am heading towards Turkey section to get updates on Zaitoon Dali operation - Thank you!
 
blasphemy law is to stay here.
Yes,that will make sure Pakistan has a bright future.
Btw,how is your economy,foreign investment,geo-political position,brain drain etc doing?
Where is the support from your "Ummah" buddies?
Only atheist China and secular Turkiye gave you support,doesnt that make you wonder whats wrong with this ''religion first'' idea of yours?
 
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