2*MIG 35 >> RAFALE/EFT

[sancho]

mig35 is not in service still it was made for india as a option
but Russia should have shown Indian the SU37 or Su 35 would have better

Su 37 and 35 are heavy class not medium and we already got their capabilities in form of MKI (canards, TVC, radar...).

 

[sancho]

You will not get Rafales with any AESA unless you delay the delivery schedule and i would like to know the baseless things .

Which is the next baseless claim, because there is no delay in any delivery schedule regarding Rafale. It's actually the other way around, they could produce way faster if they had the orders. Dassault didn't proposed up to 40 Rafales in fast production without any reason and the latest news from Thales said, that 10000 AESA modules have been produced so far.
You are speculating from the start, but have not a single real point, be it the superiority of Mig 35 in dogfights, a speed advantage, SC capabilities (you do know tha INs Mig 29Ks uses the same engines right? Ever heard of SC? ), better weapons and now even on production delays, although Mikoyan itself had to admid that Mig 35 will be delayed and production might start in 2013 (when Rafale F3+ is in operational service!).

Mig 35 is an old design with an old and limited weapon pack, but some upgrades avionics. However, these avionics has to be added with western techs too to make it more comparable to modern fighters and that's why it looses out in nearly any field, except of unit cost.

 

[Yeti]

Sancho off-topic but can you confirm India has purchased the S-300 system? I know it was offered but have we actually bought it?

 

[sancho]

Sancho off-topic but can you confirm India has purchased the S-300 system? I know it was offered but have we actually bought it?

I never really checked it (Not that interesting for me), so I can't tell you anything about it.

 

[ironman]

Sancho off-topic but can you confirm India has purchased the S-300 system? I know it was offered but have we actually bought it?

There is too much rumour about this matter on the web.. But believe me.. there is no S-300 in our arsenal. I checked it several times through various sources.

 

[indushek]

I never really checked it (Not that interesting for me), so I can't tell you anything about it.

The Aesa coming on Rafale for us, does it contain GAN modules or is it the older ones??

 

[tvsram1992]

Which is the next baseless claim, because there is no delay in any delivery schedule regarding Rafale. It's actually the other way around, they could produce way faster if they had the orders. Dassault didn't proposed up to 40 Rafales in fast production without any reason and the latest news from Thales said, that 10000 AESA modules have been produced so far.

I remember France was ready to transfer 40 rafales cutting their orders and soon replace them with newer ones just like what we did with mki's . Correct me if wrong .

You are speculating from the start, but have not a single real point, be it the superiority of Mig 35 in dogfights,

I dont know what to say when you feel Rafale will beat Mig35 in a dog fight. Isnt it a real baseless claim?

a speed advantage,

Yes it has . Speed ,TVC and maneuverability plays a prominent role in superiority . One more meaningless point

SC capabilities (you do know tha INs Mig 29Ks uses the same engines right? Ever heard of SC? ),

Please compare the T/W ratio and Thrust ratings . Seems that you just follow wiki information . Assuming that Both Rafale and Mig35 weigh equally with A2A loads which engines have more power?

better weapons and now even on production delays, although Mikoyan itself had to admid that Mig 35 will be delayed and production might start in 2013 (when Rafale F3+ is in operational service!).

You seriously think Rafale will be in India by 2013 with AESA?Self contradictory statement

Mig 35 is an old design with an old and limited weapon pack, but some upgrades avionics. However, these avionics has to be added with western techs too to make it more comparable to modern fighters and that's why it looses out in nearly any field, except of unit cost.

You feel newer ones are always better? F18 E/F was also a older design . Now dont say me it was rejected for that reason . We and Russia together can make a better avionics package .

 

[sancho]

The Aesa coming on Rafale for us, does it contain GAN modules or is it the older ones??

GaN modules are under development only and will be integrated into SPECTRA first, RBE 2 AESA might get it with further upgrades around 2018.

 

[sancho]

I remember France was ready to transfer 40 rafales cutting their orders.

Wrong, because the French orders had nothing to do with the offer of Dassault! The Rafale productionline is running in slow mode, since only France has ordered it so far, but it was developed for up to 30 fighters a year, which means Dassault simply can increase the production if required.

I dont know what to say when you feel Rafale will beat Mig35 in a dog fight. Isnt it a real baseless claim?

Only if I didn't gave clear reasons why, but I did:

- better wingloading
- similar TWR
- canards for better slow speed handling
- better WVR missiles
- SC capabilities

As I expected from the start, your only point for a superiority of the Mig was TVC, but Rafale showed that it can counter this feature in dogfights, because it's designed to be highly maneuverable as well. The ATLC exercise against the F22 proved that, with 4 to 5 draws and just a single kill, although the F22 has TVC and way better A2A capabilities than the Mig.

Yes it has . Speed ,TVC and maneuverability plays a prominent role in superiority

No it hasn't since the dry thrust of Mig 35 with RD 33MK is equal to Rafale with M88, but Rafale can SC with dry thrust and A2A loads, while the Mig can't. Forget about the paperspecs (which are more than unreliable for the Mig anyway, since the final version was never produced) and think about it more realistically.

Assuming that Both Rafale and Mig35 weigh equally with A2A loads which engines have more power?

Rafales emptyweight is around 10t depending on which version (9,5t said for the single seater), Mig 35 single seater was planned for 11t (although I say around 12t and more comparable to Mig 29Ks weight is more realistic) and as mentioned above, both have around 50 kN dry thrust. Add the same ammount of weapons and who has a better TWR? Again, you are taking paperspecs and afterburner thrust, but in reality fighters don't fly with AB all the time but with dry thrust and that's why Rafale offers better performance.

You seriously think Rafale will be in India by 2013 with AESA?Self contradictory statement

Where did I mentioned India? As I clearly explained in my earlier posts, it will be in operational service with French forces by next year, the time when it will be inducted into Indian forces depends on how long the negotiations, training and building up the logistics will need. But the point is, it will be in operational service by next year and is already in production now, while Mig 35 would have been delayed till 2013 and still waits for an customer to buy it, since even Russian air force hasitates.

You feel newer ones are always better? F18 E/F was also a older design . Now dont say me it was rejected for that reason . We and Russia together can make a better avionics package .

Russia obviously can't otherwise we wouldn't replace them in MKI, Mig 29SMT, 29K..., and there should be no doubt about the superior avionics of the F18SH, while it's flight performance was one of it's neck breakers.

 

[tvsram1992]

Wrong, because the French orders had nothing to do with the offer of Dassault! The Rafale productionline is running in slow mode, since only France has ordered it so far, but it was developed for up to 30 fighters a year, which means Dassault simply can increase the production if required.

Can you please give me a source? The production rate is absolutely unimportant to us as only first squadron will be delivered by the manufacturer. The transfer of production line will be the real challenge .

Only if I didn't gave clear reasons why, but I did:

- better wingloading
- similar TWR
- canards for better slow speed handling
- better WVR missiles
- SC capabilities

The TVC will prove much reliable than canards in a dogfight . The AOA,rate of climb and for Mig35 is better than others and remember the yaw vectoring gives additional advantage of performing yaw at very low or near zero speeds . How does better loading help in gaining superiority and you feel Russian weapons are inferior? Mig35 can be customized to have any Russian weapon on it.

As I expected from the start, your only point for a superiority of the Mig was TVC, but Rafale showed that it can counter this feature in dogfights, because it's designed to be highly maneuverable as well. The ATLC exercise against the F22 proved that, with 4 to 5 draws and just a single kill, although the F22 has TVC and way better A2A capabilities than the Mig.

Then your point was SC and canards . The aircraft can maneuver at low speeds with TVC but you need to some some velocity for canards . Canards can just deflect the plane but it cannot direct the thrust which will be one of the important factor in maintaining a superior position .Come on Jf-17 defeated F-16's in exercises and even US 4th gen fighters were able to lock F22 .

No it hasn't since the dry thrust of Mig 35 with RD 33MK is equal to Rafale with M88, but Rafale can SC with dry thrust and A2A loads, while the Mig can't. Forget about the paperspecs (which are more than unreliable for the Mig anyway, since the final version was never produced) and think about it more realistically.
Rafales emptyweight is around 10t depending on which version (9,5t said for the single seater), Mig 35 single seater was planned for 11t (although I say around 12t and more comparable to Mig 29Ks weight is more realistic) and as mentioned above, both have around 50 kN dry thrust. Add the same ammount of weapons and who has a better TWR? Again, you are taking paperspecs and afterburner thrust, but in reality fighters don't fly with AB all the time but with dry thrust and that's why Rafale offers better performance.

Rafale's Combat radius is more and hence it requires more fuel which would compensate the difference in empty weight .

Where did I mentioned India? As I clearly explained in my earlier posts, it will be in operational service with French forces by next year, the time when it will be inducted into Indian forces depends on how long the negotiations, training and building up the logistics will need. But the point is, it will be in operational service by next year and is already in production now, while Mig 35 would have been delayed till 2013 and still waits for an customer to buy it, since even Russian air force hasitates.

Then why are you firing on my post as baseless claim when i said delivery will be delayed if we want AESA? Russia went for Mig29ks only after we opted it . The reason is different but Our requirement is different . We have enemies under our a$$ . Mig35 can also act as Close support aircraft which will be of more use for us.

Russia obviously can't otherwise we wouldn't replace them in MKI, Mig 29SMT, 29K..., and there should be no doubt about the superior avionics of the F18SH, while it's flight performance was one of it's neck breakers.

Just i want to say older design means not a compromise on any capabilities .

 

[sancho]

The production rate is absolutely unimportant

Of course it is important, since you asked about the 40 Rafale in fast production offer, which would have been build at this line and not under licence. And that confirms once again that no delays of the Rafale would be expected, unlike with the Mig.

How does better loading help in gaining superiority and you feel Russian weapons are inferior

WINGloading, one of the keys for maneuverability of a fighter! Please inform yourself about it, comparing maneuverability without this is pointless.
There is no doubt about that the Russian weapon pack of Mig 35 was inferior to those of Rafale or even the possible weapons of EF. Check the Mikoyan website for the weapons of the Mig and compare it to the Europeans and you will see the huge difference! When you then add the payload, hardpoint and range advantages, the clear advantage of Rafale is hardly deniable.

Then why are you firing on my post as baseless claim when i said delivery will be delayed if we want AESA?

You said Rafales AESA will be delayed which is wrong, I said Mig is delayed because of various problems including AESA and officially confirmed by Mikoyan.

 

[pilli]

he he he this guy is following the concept of Pakistan 2 Jf17's better than F16 . Why dont you go for many super LCA's? Oh thats damn costly equal to cost of Mig35 beg China to give Jf-17's you will get 4 aircrafts then

 

[baker]

he he he this guy is following the concept of Pakistan 2 Jf17's better than F16 . Why dont you go for many super LCA's? Oh thats damn costly equal to cost of Mig35 beg China to give Jf-17's you will get 4 aircrafts then

thax for the contribution to this thread..... now please sign off................

 

[tvsram1992]

Of course it is important, since you asked about the 40 Rafale in fast production offer, which would have been build at this line and not under licence. And that confirms once again that no delays of the Rafale would be expected, unlike with the Mig.

I dont think we asked for 40 rafales immediately . According to bid only first 18 Rafale-D aircrafts will be built in France . It would have been important only if we need the aircrafts as soon as possible . If it was the case we could have speed up the process of acquiring aircraft .

WINGloading, one of the keys for maneuverability of a fighter! Please inform yourself about it, comparing maneuverability without this is pointless.
There is no doubt about that the Russian weapon pack of Mig 35 was inferior to those of Rafale or even the possible weapons of EF. Check the Mikoyan website for the weapons of the Mig and compare it to the Europeans and you will see the huge difference! When you then add the payload, hardpoint and range advantages, the clear advantage of Rafale is hardly deniable.

I want to know why Mig35's wingloading is inferior? If care can be taken such that weapons are delivered symmetrically, i dont think wing loading would effect much maneuverability especially when you have additional control surfaces and TVC . I mean balancing can be done by aligning them in a specific way which would be internal part of flight control software . Mig35 also has the capability to carry lethal weapons like one on Rafale . They might be technically high but Mig35 weapon package was not at all inferior .

You said Rafales AESA will be delayed which is wrong, I said Mig is delayed because of various problems including AESA and officially confirmed by Mikoyan.

Please quote that one . I was referring AESA to India .

he he he this guy is following the concept of Pakistan 2 Jf17's better than F16 . Why dont you go for many super LCA's? Oh thats damn costly equal to cost of Mig35 beg China to give Jf-17's you will get 4 aircrafts then

I think we will go for more no. of LCA MkII and AMCA . We want a multirole fighter not a trainer aircraft .

 

[pilli]

thax for the contribution to this thread..... now please sign off................

This is the thing you should do since you have no point