1st Upgraded Indian Mirage 2000 Flies

[[Bregs]]

I have heard the moral code of conduct or whatever it is called won't apply to the MMRCA deal.

Its election code of conduct and it certainly won't be applicable on this deal but will govt go for such a big deal near elections ? where oppositions allegations of corruption are enough to put it on mat

Chances are that deal will be signed in next few weeks provided french are able to sort out large numbers of Indian vendors n sub contractors in time

 

[araz]

Reproduction of Mirage in India offer was cancelled because the IAF wanted a diversified fighter with many enhancement that the Mirage was not able to provide. Like the AESA radar, an Eco friendly engine, supercruise and many other 4+ fighter requirements as you know was not available with Mirage.

If Mirage was able to provide everything then why did the French went for a new fighter development? buying Mirage would have helped the numbers and thats not what IAF wanted.

And so you went for the enemy of the good and lost it all. (Common phrase -- the enemy of good is better). In my humble opinion you guys should have dropped tejas a long time ago and gone for M2K perhaps with an uprated engine ala Rafale and a contract for amalgamation of subsequent technologies as the french developed them. An easier route to success with better results and a plane that would have not only been reliable but a fantastic replacement for the bisons. The M2K- MKI lo hi combo would really have made your AF a force to reckon with but some times too much shifty thinking can also be bad.
Araz

 

[janon]

And so you went for the enemy of the good and lost it all. (Common phrase -- the enemy of good is better). In my humble opinion you guys should have dropped tejas a long time ago and gone for M2K perhaps with an uprated engine ala Rafale and a contract for amalgamation of subsequent technologies as the french developed them. An easier route to success with better results and a plane that would have not only been reliable but a fantastic replacement for the bisons. The M2K- MKI lo hi combo would really have made your AF a force to reckon with but some times too much shifty thinking can also be bad.
Araz

That would have been way beyond our means. The sheer number of migs that needed replacement and the exorbitant cost of mirages would have rendered that impossible. (We were flying some 400+ mig-21s that needed to be replaced, not to mention mig-23s and mig-27s.) Getting that many mirage-2000-5s would be beyond France's means, let alone India's. We needed a cheap, light fighter to replace the mig-21s, and that is why we kept going with Tejas. That requirement has not gone away even today, even though we have MKIs and (soon) Rafales. We still need a cheap, light, low footprint fighter to maintain the requisite number of squadrons. Tejas is absolutely critical for the IAF's plans.

When we first acquired mirages in the 80s (as a panic response to Pakistan getting F-16s), the IAF was so enamored with it that they wanted to go for a follow on purchase. But the cost was so high that we had to go for the much cheaper mig-29s. Hence we ended up fielding two medium weight fighters. If another 60 mirages was considered too expensive, you can understand that replacing all migs with mirages would have been impossible. And paying for the ToT and manufacturing rights and assembly line also, would have been unthinkable.

Even today, simply upgrading the mirages for another 15 years is costing more than purchasing a brand new mig-29K or as much as two JF-17s or Tejas. That is how expensive French stuff is, not just for buying, but later for all spares and upgrades. No, we had to go for an indigenous alternative, so that all that money would be spent within the country.

Also, note that the IAF simply cannot afford to be an al heavy-medium force, like the USAF. We will have to have at least a third of our fleet in the light category, for affordability. Not just affordability of purchase, but also that of maintenance and operationl costs.

Yes, the Tejas program has been tortuously slow, but it was (is) inevitable. We will eventually see 200+ of those in service, in Mk2 and later blocks. Such a large country like India cannot be defended by 126 gold plated Rafales alone, or similarly uber expensive mirages. We need numbers, and therefore we need a cheap, and home made alternative. Hence Tejas.

 

[Storm Force]

STILL DOESNT ANSWER WHY THE RAFALE SAGA

WHY ARE WE SPENDING $25 BILLION ON MMRCA NOW beginning 2014 WHEN IN 2020 we have to comitt another $30 billion on FGFA to face against chinease J20 threat

no of this makes sense

WHOSE GOING TO FIND $55 BILLION

 

[Manindra]

That would have been way beyond our means. The sheer number of migs that needed replacement and the exorbitant cost of mirages would have rendered that impossible. (We were flying some 400+ mig-21s that needed to be replaced, not to mention mig-23s and mig-27s.) Getting that many mirage-2000-5s would be beyond France's means, let alone India's. We needed a cheap, light fighter to replace the mig-21s, and that is why we kept going with Tejas. That requirement has not gone away even today, even though we have MKIs and (soon) Rafales. We still need a cheap, light, low footprint fighter to maintain the requisite number of squadrons. Tejas is absolutely critical for the IAF's plans.

When we first acquired mirages in the 80s (as a panic response to Pakistan getting F-16s), the IAF was so enamored with it that they wanted to go for a follow on purchase. But the cost was so high that we had to go for the much cheaper mig-29s. Hence we ended up fielding two medium weight fighters. If another 60 mirages was considered too expensive, you can understand that replacing all migs with mirages would have been impossible. And paying for the ToT and manufacturing rights and assembly line also, would have been unthinkable.

Even today, simply upgrading the mirages for another 15 years is costing more than purchasing a brand new mig-29K or as much as two JF-17s or Tejas. That is how expensive French stuff is, not just for buying, but later for all spares and upgrades. No, we had to go for an indigenous alternative, so that all that money would be spent within the country.

Also, note that the IAF simply cannot afford to be an al heavy-medium force, like the USAF. We will have to have at least a third of our fleet in the light category, for affordability. Not just affordability of purchase, but also that of maintenance and operationl costs.

Yes, the Tejas program has been tortuously slow, but it was (is) inevitable. We will eventually see 200+ of those in service, in Mk2 and later blocks. Such a large country like India cannot be defended by 126 gold plated Rafales alone, or similarly uber expensive mirages. We need numbers, and therefore we need a cheap, and home made alternative. Hence Tejas.

One correction, we are using 105 Mig-21 Bison variant & rest 164 older variant are put under stand by reserve.

 

[LTE-TDD]

Poor India! even can not do upgrade job.

 

[janon]

One correction, we are using 105 Mig-21 Bison variant & rest 164 older variant are put under stand by reserve.

Note the tense, I said "were". At the time that I was speaking about, we were flying at least 400 mig 21s, if not more.

 

[araz]

That would have been way beyond our means. The sheer number of migs that needed replacement and the exorbitant cost of mirages would have rendered that impossible. (We were flying some 400+ mig-21s that needed to be replaced, not tv mention mig-23s and mig-27s.) Getting that many mirage-2000-5s would be beyond France's means, let alone India's. We needed a cheap, light fighter to replace the mig-21s, and that is why we kept going with Tejas. That requirement has not gone away even today, even though we have MKIs and (soon) Rafales. We still need a cheap, light, low footprint fighter to maintain the requisite number of squadrons. Tejas is absolutely critical for the IAF's plans.

When we first acquired mirages in the 80s (as a panic response to Pakistan getting F-16s), the IAF was so enamored with it that they wanted to go for a follow on purchase. But the cost was so high that we had to go for the much cheaper mig-29s. Hence we ended up field in two medium weight fighters. If another 60 mirages was considered too expensive, you can understand that replacing all migs with mirages would have been impossible. And paying for the ToT and manufacturing rights and assembly line also, would have been unthinkable.

Even today, simply upgrading the mirages for another 15 years is costing more than purchasing a brand new mig-29K or as much as two JF-17s or Tejas. That is how expensive French stuff is, not just for buying, but later for all spares and upgrades. No, we had to go for an indigenous alternative, so that all that money would be spent within the country.

Also, note that the IAF simply cannot afford to be an al heavy-medium force, like the USAF. We will have to have at least a third of our fleet in the light category, for affordability. Not just affordability of purchase, but also that of maintenance and operationl costs.

Yes, the Tejas program has been tortuously slow, but it was (is) inevitable. We will eventually see 200+ of those in service, in Mk2 and later blocks. Such a large country like India cannot be defended by 126 gold plated Rafales alone, or similarly uber expensive mirages. We need numbers, and therefore we need a cheap, and home made alternative. Hence Tejas.

My sincerest apologies for not responding at length. There are a few things that I would like to say.
A) Buying the manufacturing facility woukd have given you access to manufacturing a lot of the parts which would have reduced your costs. It wod also have ensured french help for tejas. Thqt in its own rights would have been a huge victory.
B) I remember that in 05--6the french were desperate and offering us the M2k5 @ 20 million a pop so why should it have been as expensive as it is now.
C) The main reason cor the expensesnow pertain tk the bells and whistles that you want now.That MAY NOT have been the case in 02-#06 as most of those technologies were not available then. Even if the feench wees not playing ball with you , you could have asked other nations for their support.
Araz