1st Upgraded Indian Mirage 2000 Flies

[GURU DUTT]

In way yes. The depleting squadron is not the 'primary' concern for IAF as it comes second to capability. IAF believes more on quality of a machine than having many machines of low quality. And to be honest IAF has always has been respected for its quality over quantity strategy, be it fighters or fighter pilots.

However quantity is also important and we can unequivocally say that its high time IAF goes for numbers too. today our only hope is LCA which would be able to bridge that gap and it eventually will do so. But dont only blame IAF for its delay, there are other parties who are equally responsible for the mismanagement.
If you check on couple of tests that were conducted on LCA in recent past, you will easily get an idea that these tests are coming late for a fighter which took off to the sky a decade back. So you get a feeling that either the fighter was not upto the mark to make these tests on it or they simply delayed the tests for nothing...I would hold ADA accountable for these aided by IAFs requirement changes.

that there unailed it LCA was not delayed cause it had problems it was over tested and goal post kept changing as IAF top brass dint wanted the kick backs to stop and they are still doing the same but now they have no choice they tried hard to milk the Tax payer and dragged too long with MMRCA Trails and now french have started to show uneasiness french even used the M2K deal to fill the coffers of IAF top Brass and Baus and netas alike to speed up MMRCA deal now french are getting restless cause americans are the new darling of IAF and since LCA MK2 and F 18E/F have the same engines and talk american are ready to share source codes of the ASEA radar and willing to give 60 ready made jets within half the period(12-18 months) as french had promised (36 months) and since there is a possibilty of the change in central govt fench are cornered so are the over greedy IAF /Beurocracy & netas

so the point is IAF might have to choose F 18 (which they delliberatilly sabotaged for expensive rafale) and LCA MK2 deu to comminality in engines

but dont rule owt a master stroke from the french as of now they just might give something very special to sweeten the deal

 

[Dash]

that there unailed it LCA was not delayed cause it had problems it was over tested and goal post kept changing as IAF top brass dint wanted the kick backs to stop and they are still doing the same but now they have no choice they tried hard to milk the Tax payer and dragged too long with MMRCA Trails and now french have started to show uneasiness french even used the M2K deal to fill the coffers of IAF top Brass and Baus and netas alike to speed up MMRCA deal now french are getting restless cause americans are the new darling of IAF and since LCA MK2 and F 18E/F have the same engines and talk american are ready to share source codes of the ASEA radar and willing to give 60 ready made jets within half the period(12-18 months) as french had promised (36 months) and since there is a possibilty of the change in central govt fench are cornered so are the over greedy IAF /Beurocracy & netas

so the point is IAF might have to choose F 18 (which they delliberatilly sabotaged for expensive rafale) and LCA MK2 deu to comminality in engines

but dont rule owt a master stroke from the french as of now they just might give something very special to sweeten the deal

I would not mind kick back in a deal(its everywhere) until they do something good for the state of IAF. I wouldnt mind them taking some money from French if that helps quicker induction of these jets to IAF which is the need of the hour. but the unusual and yet expected delay of MRCA tells me that IAF is not to blame as far as selection of Rafale, which is still a better fighter than anything that was on offer..and that they have done their job in telling the govt the plane they want in their inventory.

The ball is now in diplomatic/bureaucratic bench and thats where major delays are happening and as you rightly said, the unstable GOI is not able to take a risk of $20 billion which might be subjected to anything but not less than criticism in coming future and cant help them coz they will be in the opposition. This is the prime factor behind the delay. No govt would risk signing a deal in a critical situation like this. So MRCA is surely plagued.

However a small light of hope remains for LCA helped by Antony's deadlines which might get 2nd IOC by December so thats a positive sign.

Regarding the F-18 and LCA commonality, it is mere speculation, as an engine alone cant be a factor for such. Americans might promise us the source code for AESA and no one doubt their industrial capability, will not be a major factor in making any life altering decision for IAF.
However there still looms a possibility of arm twisting the IN when they come to table to US for EMALS and US will certainly not allow India to get hands on a sophisticated system without anything in return. India will get dragged to this mess eventually and the CSC,IAF,IN and GI top brass have sound knowledge of whats in store. But I strongly believe that India will buy some military offensive hardware from US if it gets into that deal, it could be F-18 or F-35 but thats solely for IN to deal with.

Just think this, France gains from India/IAF with MRCA, but with IN, India gains from US!! and we will be at their doors not them... if France knows this, they might as well sweeten the deal, which they will have to do with no option left.

By the way can you get me some link where US says they will deliver 60 ready made jets in 12-18 months pls?

 

[MULUBJA]

India paid 2.4 billion $ for upgrade 49 Mirage and 2.4 billion $ to buy 45 brand new Mig 29 K.

So the real question is how does the 49 Mirage face off against the 45 Mig. Anyone ?

It is not that simple Guys. A big amount towards the upgrade package will spend towards very potent BVR system like Mica. some amount may be for a highly potent defense suite like Spectra. Actual plane upgrade amount may be a little part of total package.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I would not mind kick back in a deal(its everywhere) until they do something good for the state of IAF. I wouldnt mind them taking some money from French if that helps quicker induction of these jets to IAF which is the need of the hour. but the unusual and yet expected delay of MRCA tells me that IAF is not to blame as far as selection of Rafale, which is still a better fighter than anything that was on offer..and that they have done their job in telling the govt the plane they want in their inventory.

The ball is now in diplomatic/bureaucratic bench and thats where major delays are happening and as you rightly said, the unstable GOI is not able to take a risk of $20 billion which might be subjected to anything but not less than criticism in coming future and cant help them coz they will be in the opposition. This is the prime factor behind the delay. No govt would risk signing a deal in a critical situation like this. So MRCA is surely plagued.

However a small light of hope remains for LCA helped by Antony's deadlines which might get 2nd IOC by December so thats a positive sign.

Regarding the F-18 and LCA commonality, it is mere speculation, as an engine alone cant be a factor for such. Americans might promise us the source code for AESA and no one doubt their industrial capability, will not be a major factor in making any life altering decision for IAF.
However there still looms a possibility of arm twisting the IN when they come to table to US for EMALS and US will certainly not allow India to get hands on a sophisticated system without anything in return. India will get dragged to this mess eventually and the CSC,IAF,IN and GI top brass have sound knowledge of whats in store. But I strongly believe that India will buy some military offensive hardware from US if it gets into that deal, it could be F-18 or F-35 but thats solely for IN to deal with.

Just think this, France gains from India/IAF with MRCA, but with IN, India gains from US!! and we will be at their doors not them... if France knows this, they might as well sweeten the deal, which they will have to do with no option left.

By the way can you get me some link where US says they will deliver 60 ready made jets in 12-18 months pls?

sorry brother they are roumours doing rounds in corridoors of MOD and vayu sena bhawan so no links but you cant just brush them aside aswell cause they carry weight

now about commanallity between LCA & F18 engines well brother engine happens to be most important piece in maintainenge and a common enigne will be better ask any IAF man/women he will tell you

as for EMALS well that is a certain possibilty as IN needs it for its IAC2 becuse of requirement as steam catapults are very very bulky and diffcult to maintain on a small carrier and if india selects F18 as MMRCA you can very well count F35s on flight deck of IAC2

the thread was about M2K which was till reacentili considered second best to F16 indeed is a great plane but when IAF rejected to have more home made M2ks whne french wanted to sell the tools and assembli line and give full TOT for MeKs in earli 2001-2 and went for very very expensive upgrds for the same it raised mant eyebrows not just in india but USA aswell when IAF needed gap fillers to replace MIG21s (even IAF first rejected LCA model for M2K) but thats another story

Hope you get the point sir

 

[Dash]

sorry brother they are roumours doing rounds in corridoors of MOD and vayu sena bhawan so no links but you cant just brush them aside aswell cause they carry weight

now about commanallity between LCA & F18 engines well brother engine happens to be most important piece in maintainenge and a common enigne will be better ask any IAF man/women he will tell you

as for EMALS well that is a certain possibilty as IN needs it for its IAC2 becuse of requirement as steam catapults are very very bulky and diffcult to maintain on a small carrier and if india selects F18 as MMRCA you can very well count F35s on flight deck of IAC2

the thread was about M2K which was till reacentili considered second best to F16 indeed is a great plane but when IAF rejected to have more home made M2ks whne french wanted to sell the tools and assembli line and give full TOT for MeKs in earli 2001-2 and went for very very expensive upgrds for the same it raised mant eyebrows not just in india but USA aswell when IAF needed gap fillers to replace MIG21s (even IAF first rejected LCA model for M2K) but thats another story

Hope you get the point sir

I am getting your point. After all we have been here for long time so we know how things developed and we saw those points getting discussed time and again

But if the F-18 deal is brewing in MOD chambers then its nothing but a big disappointment for people like us who saw how MRCA emerged and how we supported it from a fan boy POV at the least.

I am waiting till the elections get over in 2014 to be honest and then we can say cheers I guess..

 

[GURU DUTT]

I am getting your point. After all we have been here for long time so we know how things developed and we saw those points getting discussed time and again

But if the F-18 deal is brewing in MOD chambers then its nothing but a big disappointment for people like us who saw how MRCA emerged and how we supported it from a fan boy POV at the least.

I am waiting till the elections get over in 2014 to be honest and then we can say cheers I guess..

well brother its all up to diplomacy if we treat USA right and dont give it say in owr millitarry & foreign policy we will earn more than any one else for at least 2 more decades we can set up all the technikal base with help of USA which Russians and French never gave to us and milked us while US werpon systems are very rugged , easy to use and maintain and cheaper and much mcuh potent than french & russian

Onli thing is USA is a very good buinnessman but more than we need it it needs us more cause rise of China as the hyper power is inevitable and clash between both cant be ruled owt

i guess we should go for F18 F as MMRCA as it is in every way better for IAF & IN

 

[IND151]

Do not forget the billions of dollars spent on Mirage 2000 infrastructure of IAF. By extending the life and capability of M2Ks IAF has increase the utilization of that infrastructure as well saving millions of dollars for IAF in the process. Not even counting the cost of thousands of hours of retraining of the pilots and ground crews if IAF would have retired M2K and replaced them with another plane..

Good explanation

 

[Abingdonboy]

That ship sailed long ago. When the MRCA requirement was first floated, Dassault offered to move the mirage production line lock, stock and barrel to India. This was in 2001. The MoD/IAF in all their wisdom, chose to go for a multi vendor selection process, as a consequence of which we still haven't inked the contract. Mirage production line was about to close, and the IAF was told that without firm, committed orders, it would have to be shut down forever. And that is precisely what happened.

If we had simply gone for mirage-2000-5s, we could have absorbed the technology easily, and finished production by now, retired all the mig-21s, and spent quite a lot more money on LCAs and additional MKIs. This would have meant a much more fighting fit IAF from 2008-2020, when 5th gen aircrafts begin to trickle in. We would also have cut down on the cost of new training and maintenance facilities and the time and money to train with a new fighter type. And we could have upgraded the 59 older mirages in house, thereby saving another couple of billion dollars.

Come on mate, it wasn't/isn't as clear cut as that.There were pros and cons to both options. The IAF simply took the option they thought best suited them ie a better fighter at some point down the road. The M2k production line would've helped Indian industery but it is what it is.

 

[Abingdonboy]

+ just to add, there is so much BS going around wrt the MMRCA and many members are spouting things that don'e seem to have any basis in reality.


All I'll say is the Rafale is the ONLY option the IAF is and will consider, there is NO back-up plan ie no F-18 deal no MKI deal is being worked out in the background. The IAF ACM himself said as much.


Listen to what the people who know are saying FFS, don't daydream. The French Ambassador and Dassualt CEO have both said recnelty they are hopeful of a deal in this calendar/fiscal year. Until then be patient and cut out the sensationalism and BS.

 

[rockstarIN]

+ just to add, there is so much BS going around wrt the MMRCA and many members are spouting things that don'e seem to have any basis in reality.


All I'll say is the Rafale is the ONLY option the IAF is and will consider, there is NO back-up plan ie no F-18 deal no MKI deal is being worked out in the background. The IAF ACM himself said as much.


Listen to what the people who know are saying FFS, don't daydream. The French Ambassador and Dassualt CEO have both said recnelty they are hopeful of a deal in this calendar/fiscal year. Until then be patient and cut out the sensationalism and BS.

This fiscal year might include the election norms where you can't sign a big deal as such.

 

[Abingdonboy]

This fiscal year might include the election norms where you can't sign a big deal as such.

I have heard the moral code of conduct or whatever it is called won't apply to the MMRCA deal.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I have heard the moral code of conduct or whatever it is called won't apply to the MMRCA deal.

so your saying that Rafale deal will be signed before electiosn well changes are 60-40 in favour of the deal going thru anything can happen .....ps-curruption might get upper hand this time too if all parteis are taken care of (netas, babus, genrals& media)

Good Luck India

 

[Abingdonboy]

so your saying that Rafale deal will be signed before electiosn well changes are 60-40 in favour of the deal going thru anything can happen .....ps-curruption might get upper hand this time too if all parteis are taken care of (netas, babus, genrals& media)

Good Luck India

Not a shred of evidence to prove any of your claims on corruption. Just saying it's there doesn't mean jack bro. This deal is as clean as they come and has passed through countless screening and anti-graft stages to get to where it is.


Deal will be signed this fiscal/calender year. I'm not going to talk about elections.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Not a shred of evidence to prove any of your claims on corruption. Just saying it's there doesn't mean jack bro. This deal is as clean as they come and has passed through countless screening and anti-graft stages to get to where it is.


Deal will be signed this fiscal/calender year. I'm not going to talk about elections.

and who supervised it ...ah wait are you talking about paid media , ex beurocrats/Air forcestaff(which kept flying coffins & scutteled all attempts on LCA) or the IB-CBI(PMOs lapdogs )...common man were you living under a rock

 

[rockstarIN]

I have heard the moral code of conduct or whatever it is called won't apply to the MMRCA deal.

It might be an issue in political war during election time.