IAF plan for upgraded Jaguars fails to take off

[Indo-guy]

As a matter of course I don't trust defence news as a source. Sounds a lot like BS to me to be honest. AFAIK the engine deal will go to Honeywell later this year with the F125IN. DARIN III flight trails are coming along just fine:

Anyway we are ONLY talking about 61 Jags here, the rest will be retired by 2017. This isn't really a project that is critical to the IAF, yes it would be great to get all 61 (about 3 SQDs worth) up to DARIN III standard sooner than later but if they don't then it's not a MAJOR loss but it will be a shame and may lead to the entire fleet being scrapped early. As soon as the LCA and Rafale start getting inducted in large numbers not to mention the FGFA and AMCA later the IAF will get rid of all Jags quickly.

well all that article is trying to say that this particular upgrade has missed its deadline ..and now new deadline is 2019 ....
Isn't that true ?

We have failed time and again to meet deadline whatever may be the reasons ....

and can we deny that we are facing serious number crunch with each passing days ...

We are missing deadlines on all accounts may it be signing of Rafael or induction of LCA or t6his particular jaguar upgrade ...

 

[surya kiran]

Why cannot these aricraft be handed over to army aviation or navy A&N Command?

 

[sancho]

Why cannot these aricraft be handed over to army aviation or navy A&N Command?

Even if IA would get Jags, they would remain dependent on escort and aircover of IAF fighters, which makes independent operations not possible.
The A&N command needs not only strike but also air defence capabilities and that's what the shore based MKIs provide (possibly even IN's Mig 29Ks).
If you want to divert fighters to IN, it must be the Mig 29 UPGs (for common logistics with the Mig 29Ks) and to divert complete responsibility of coastal air defence to them. That would free IAF fighters for the more important western, northern and eastern borders, or to take over strategic tasks like surveillance, transport and refuelling all over and around India.

 

[MilSpec]

The article indeed sounds more like sensational news, rather than pointing out to real problems. The question here would be, what the "expectations" of IAF were, that couldn't be met. I don't think they actually expected something big from the Jags anymore, it's hardly has any future or operational benefit left and since they purposly selected a complete new engine, issues with the integration might not be that surprising.



Source?

The article doesn't tell us anything... they could have all but written a line saying darin III delayed, and it would have made the same sense. What expectations are we talking here about, What were the design issues? And now without knowing a damn thing people here are ready to Axe the Jaguar, some of which have more than 10-15 years of flight left in them.

They aren't, since all they offer to IAF is good low level flying capability, but other than that, even after the upgrade they will remain poor on any level. The upgraded M2Ks and Mig 29s will offer far better variety of A2G weapons, can be used in more A2G roles and offer credible self defence capabilities. The Jags on the other side will be dependent on dedicated escort fighters to defend them, will only offer LGBs and cluster bombs for CAS roles and HARPOON for a few IM's in the maritime attack role. The backbone of IAF's strike capability after 2015, will be 230 x MKIs and around 110 x Mig 29 UPGs / Mirage 2000 UPGs, but surely not the Jags anymore.

@sancho I have wondered about this low level strike missions, and I certainly feel with a High resolution LDP, and good CC, High altitude stike missions are more prudent. Jag is already a candidate for Litening 3, and I guess can carry the AS37 and AS330. I believe there is more to the story about acceptance of Darin 3 or even the scope of Darin 3 which is not being raised.

Why has it taken this long to re-engine the a/c?

 

[sancho]

The article doesn't tell us anything... they could have all but written a line saying darin III delayed, and it would have made the same sense. What expectations are we talking here about, What were the design issues? And now without knowing a damn thing people here are ready to Axe the Jaguar, some of which have more than 10-15 years of flight left in them.

I would "guess" that they might be disappointed by the radar range, which would fit to the notion of the article that design issues by HAL are reasons for their disappointment. HAL is responsible for the redesign of the nose and the integration of the radar, but the the Jaguar nose is rather small and I don't expect much performance of the radar in it, compared to the same in LCA MK2 for example.
IF my guess is right, I wouldn't give HAL the blame here but the overestimations of IAF by trying to make a modern fighter out of an outdated design and that they kept producing it for so long.
Any upgrade apart from a life extention of the airframe, the addition of modern avionics and basic LGB delivery is totatly not worth it. Higher payload without additional hardpoint hardly adds to it's capabilities, which makes the new engine a waste of money and by far too complicated as an upgrade. The radar and HMS as well are basically useless for a fighter without credible A2A capability, that will be covered or even guided by escorting fighters anyway, which makes even the integration of the LDP pretty silly.

 

[surya kiran]

Even if IA would get Jags, they would remain dependent on escort and aircover of IAF fighters, which makes independent operations not possible.
The A&N command needs not only strike but also air defence capabilities and that's what the shore based MKIs provide (possibly even IN's Mig 29Ks).
If you want to divert fighters to IN, it must be the Mig 29 UPGs (for common logistics with the Mig 29Ks) and to divert complete responsibility of coastal air defence to them. That would free IAF fighters for the more important western, northern and eastern borders, or to take over strategic tasks like surveillance, transport and refuelling all over and around India.

The A&N command is more so from anti ship operations perspective. They do carry the Sea-Eagle. With their ability to fly low, they would be suited to the anti-shipping role.

And there are 12 Jags assigned to that mission in the IAF too, which means its not something new, just a transfer of capability to the IN.

@Capt.Popeye ?

 

[MilSpec]

I would "guess" that they might be disappointed by the radar range, which would fit to the notion of the article that design issues by HAL are reasons for their disappointment. HAL is responsible for the redesign of the nose and the integration of the radar, but the the Jaguar nose is rather small and I don't expect much performance of the radar in it, compared to the same in LCA MK2 for example.

Not trying to defend anyone here , but a slight correction Nose cone for Jaguar was developed by NAL http://www.nal.res.in/pages/cemlab/photos-hardware-components-New.pdf

IF my guess is right, I wouldn't give HAL the blame here but the overestimations of IAF by trying to make a modern fighter out of an outdated design and that they kept producing it for so long.
Any upgrade apart from a life extention of the airframe, the addition of modern avionics and basic LGB delivery is totatly not worth it. Higher payload without additional hardpoint hardly adds to it's capabilities, which makes the new engine a waste of money and by far too complicated as an upgrade. The radar and HMS as well are basically useless for a fighter without credible A2A capability, that will be covered or even guided by escorting fighters anyway, which makes even the integration of the LDP pretty silly.

I have never been a big fan of this aircraft, i have always thought it would have been prudent to pour the upgrade money in Mig27's instead, because of the solid air frame and screamer of an engine.

The expectation was re-engine this aircraft to greater range, faster rate of climb without after burner, and better turn rate, two of them being airframe strain operations, I believe that might be the potential issue lurking underneath the surface. Essentially the intent was to turning this bomb truck into a faster longer range bomb truck, but them it will still remain a bomb truck that fits into "low level deep penetration platform" what ever that means.[/quote]

 

[sancho]

The A&N command is more so from anti ship operations perspective. They do carry the Sea-Eagle. With their ability to fly low, they would be suited to the anti-shipping role.

And there are Jags assigned to that mission in the IAF too, which means its not something new, just a transfer of capability to the IN.

The Sea Eagles are replaced with Harpoons, but only a dozon Jags are able to use them, let alone that they are stationed towards Pakistan and the Arabian Sea, so they have no importance for A&N. Not to mention that MKIs with Brahmos and Mig 29Ks/UPGs with Kh 35 still remain superior to the Jags.

Essentially the intent was to turning this bomb truck into a faster longer range bomb truck, but them it will still remain a bomb truck that fits into "low level deep penetration platform" what ever that means.

The problem is, it was a bomb truck only with dumb bombs, with LGBs and modern strike capabilities, it is even worse than LCA MK1 as shown in my earlier comparison in the first page. In Afghanistan, Libya, or Iraq it would be a great choice, where air superiority is available, the ground threats minimal and the operational costs of more capable fighters too high, but that is not the Indian situation. The Jags could never be operated alone, the lack of multi role capability makes them far less useful than the upgraded Mig 29s and even worse to any newly added aircraft (LCA Mk1, Rafale, Super 30, FGFA, AURA, RUSTOM H). There is simply no space left for them other than secondary roles in IAF anymore and for that, this kind of an upgrade is simply a waste of money and a poor show of foresight of IAF.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The A&N command is more so from anti ship operations perspective. They do carry the Sea-Eagle. With their ability to fly low, they would be suited to the anti-shipping role.

And there are 12 Jags assigned to that mission in the IAF too, which means its not something new, just a transfer of capability to the IN.

@Capt.Popeye ?

What I know is that: the IAF does not want to give and the IN now does not want to take.
The IN has moved on............... to the MiG-29Ks.
But there is the more important and larger issue remaining. That of Air Control on the archipelagic areas. MoD will have to confront that some time for sure.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Not trying to defend anyone here , but a slight correction Nose cone for Jaguar was developed by NAL http://www.nal.res.in/pages/cemlab/photos-hardware-components-New.pdf




I have never been a big fan of this aircraft, i have always thought it would have been prudent to pour the upgrade money in Mig27's instead, because of the solid air frame and screamer of an engine.

The expectation was re-engine this aircraft to greater range, faster rate of climb without after burner, and better turn rate, two of them being airframe strain operations, I believe that might be the potential issue lurking underneath the surface. Essentially the intent was to turning this bomb truck into a faster longer range bomb truck, but them it will still remain a bomb truck that fits into "low level deep penetration platform" what ever that means.

[/quote]


First of all the report which started this thread need not be adorned with too much credibility. Then, issues are there; but much less of a technical nature.

About the Jag itself: it is in fact that the IAF that has some affinity for it; even to the extent of a preference over the Floggers. Though the Floggers have robust airframes, powerful engines and unmatched rough field performance.
Some of that is based on reasons of serviceability, while the Jag is still considered to be very reliable. The new engines are intended to take care of the power issues. But the Jag cannot be turned into a MRCA. It will operate in tandem with other aircraft and will be left to do what it does best (and better than the others)----BAS/CAS.
Let me tell you, that there is an AM who is AOC-in-C of an important Operational Command who has a good lot of the Jags in his fleet. And will have good reasons to use them, to full effect; if 'the balloon goes up'. And he is one of the crew that inducted the Floggers aeons ago.

 

[MilSpec]

First of all the report which started this thread need not be adorned with too much credibility. Then, issues are there; but much less of a technical nature.

About the Jag itself: it is in fact that the IAF that has some affinity for it; even to the extent of a preference over the Floggers. Though the Floggers have robust airframes, powerful engines and unmatched rough field performance.
Some of that is based on reasons of serviceability, while the Jag is still considered to be very reliable. The new engines are intended to take care of the power issues. But the Jag cannot be turned into a MRCA. It will operate in tandem with other aircraft and will be left to do what it does best (and better than the others)----BAS/CAS.
Let me tell you, that there is an AM who is AOC-in-C of an important Operational Command who has a good lot of the Jags in his fleet. And will have good reasons to use them, to full effect; if 'the balloon goes up'. And he is one of the crew that inducted the Floggers aeons ago.

We usually lose the script on the paper specs, yes Jaguar is outmatched by almost everything on paper in IAF Stables, but it is still a good strike platform, It can carry stuff, and deliver it. But does that cut it in today's environment. All it's classmates are going in for upgrades for modern warfare, whereas the Jag's are still stuck in the 80's. Mirages have become lego like, Mig29's the traditional pugilist have got some A2G kicks in the bag, Even the ground attack Dare upgrades can make the Mig27's into a Very FAST Precision Standoff Weapons platform, what does the Jaguar offer here and at what price...

I think the fundamental issue for Multirole/omnirole has to be it's original design intent. Su30- Designed as Air Superiority/Strike, Mig29UPG- Designed as out and out air superiority fighter, Mirage 2000- Light Weight Air Superiority, F16-LWF, F/A 18- LWF,
Underneath the skin of Multirole evolution lies a potent Air Superiority fighter which wont go out of application in this century. Jaguar on contrary is originally designed as Ground Attack aircraft.... Due to design limitations it not possible to give good a2a features to a ground attack aircraft while that not being true for Air Sup fighters to gain A2G roles. Even a ground version of Mig27M, is derived from a Air Sup Mig 23 and thus is natural to be retrofitted with A2a Systems. That is where Jaguar is fundamentally an issue with foresight of the IAF.

All this being said, jaguar SEPECAT, is unapologetic-ally what it is, as ground attack aircraft, can it get newer capabilities- Yes, will it be ever as good as any other upgraded aircraft may not be a valid question, but more importantly is there any need to upgrade the Jag's when you might be able to buy a LCA at almost the same price.

The Sea Eagles are replaced with Harpoons, but only a dozon Jags are able to use them, let alone that they are stationed towards Pakistan and the Arabian Sea, so they have no importance for A&N. Not to mention that MKIs with Brahmos and Mig 29Ks/UPGs with Kh 35 still remain superior to the Jags.



The problem is, it was a bomb truck only with dumb bombs, with LGBs and modern strike capabilities, it is even worse than LCA MK1 as shown in my earlier comparison in the first page. In Afghanistan, Libya, or Iraq it would be a great choice, where air superiority is available, the ground threats minimal and the operational costs of more capable fighters too high, but that is not the Indian situation. The Jags could never be operated alone, the lack of multi role capability makes them far less useful than the upgraded Mig 29s and even worse to any newly added aircraft (LCA Mk1, Rafale, Super 30, FGFA, AURA, RUSTOM H). There is simply no space left for them other than secondary roles in IAF anymore and for that, this kind of an upgrade is simply a waste of money and a poor show of foresight of IAF.

I dont like the name super 30 for some reason... it always sounds slightly cheesy

 

[Capt.Popeye]

We usually lose the script on the paper specs, yes Jaguar is outmatched by almost everything on paper in IAF Stables, but it is still a good strike platform, It can carry stuff, and deliver it. But does that cut it in today's environment. All it's classmates are going in for upgrades for modern warfare, whereas the Jag's are still stuck in the 80's. Mirages have become lego like, Mig29's the traditional pugilist have got some A2G kicks in the bag, Even the ground attack Dare upgrades can make the Mig27's into a Very FAST Precision Standoff Weapons platform, what does the Jaguar offer here and at what price...

I think the fundamental issue for Multirole/omnirole has to be it's original design intent. Su30- Designed as Air Superiority/Strike, Mig29UPG- Designed as out and out air superiority fighter, Mirage 2000- Light Weight Air Superiority, F16-LWF, F/A 18- LWF,
Underneath the skin of Multirole evolution lies a potent Air Superiority fighter which wont go out of application in this century. Jaguar on contrary is originally designed as Ground Attack aircraft.... Due to design limitations it not possible to give good a2a features to a ground attack aircraft while that not being true for Air Sup fighters to gain A2G roles. Even a ground version of Mig27M, is derived from a Air Sup Mig 23 and thus is natural to be retrofitted with A2a Systems. That is where Jaguar is fundamentally an issue with foresight of the IAF.

All this being said, jaguar SEPECAT, is unapologetic-ally what it is, as ground attack aircraft, can it get newer capabilities- Yes, will it be ever as good as any other upgraded aircraft may not be a valid question, but more importantly is there any need to upgrade the Jag's when you might be able to buy a LCA at almost the same price.


I dont like the name super 30 for some reason... it always sounds slightly cheesy

Some points with regard to what you have written.
The MiG-27 still remains in the fleet, while the MiG-23 has exited. The remaining Mig-27s are no more frontline, only some were upgraded and largely to tote the DARE Tusker pod around; the others as reservists. Mainly for the reason that I have stated above. Lets not get bamboozled by paper-specs.

Cost-wise; sure the LCA can be viable. But it has two things going against it. It has not matured (yet) into a good A2G platform; but most importantly will never really be a low-level performer. So it is quite meaningless to bring that comparison on the table.
On that score alone, the venerable Jag tops anything that the IAF has in the fleet.
Which is the real reason for the IAF's continuing affinity for the a/c. Even more than DARIN or Avionics upgrades, the IAF greatly sought the engine upgrade that would allow it to perform better esp in the Lo-Lo-Lo mission profile while carrying some more payload, but without being anywhere near the "bomb-truck" abilities of the MKIs or Rafales. Even the IAF did not have any fantasies on that score. It was and remains a poor man's version of the F-111. Even the fact that it cannot be upgraded beyond a certain point (because of the Design Generation) was factored in and accepted by the IAF.

About the ideas of Multi-Role/Omni-Role etc. beyond a point its just a misnomer. The fact that the IAF is still sticking to the Jag attests to their philosophy on this point. And some other AFs too seem to be doing so.

 

[sancho]

I am not so sure but Jaguars have proven themselves in WARs.

In war of the past and that's the point as they don't fit to modern warfare anymore in the Indian warscenario. Today it will launch LGBs from high altitudes, exactly the way LCA MK1 will do it, because it's not needed anymore to drop bombs directly above the target, since strike weapons will be used from safer distances to avoid ground based air defences. That makes the low flying advantages of the Jaguar only useful for the initial approach to avoid detection, but with MKI already in the fleet with far better (even low flying) capabilities and Rafale coming in, deep penetration is definitely not a role where IAF will use the Jags anymore. All that is then left for it is recon and CAS, which again in modern warfare are taken over by UAVs (Rustom 1, Rustom H), or multi role upgrades like Mirage 2000, Mig 29 and the LCA that will be even more capable and cost-effective than the Jag in that role.
Those 6 x squads are only good on paper, but won't have any operational importance anymore!

 

[NKVD]

IAF can look towards acquiring all of the 170 Mirage-2000s from France. Which can help to replace to Mi-21s and MiG-23&27s as MMRCA can be additional ones.

M2k are to costly to fly France took almost 40 million per plane for upgrade almost 3 billion for upgrade just 49 Planes it is huge Better to go for more Mig-29 upg or KuB.

 

[sancho]

Please don't mind at all. But if IAF acquire Jaguars for spares from ex-Jaguars users also other than MMRCA deal IAF can look towards acquiring all of the 170 Mirage-2000s from France. Which can help to replace to Mi-21s and MiG-23&27s as MMRCA can be additional ones.

It's not the spares that are the issue, but the upgradebility of a dedicated strike fighter, designed several decades ago, with an idea of warefare in mind that simply doesn't fit to the Indian war scenario of the present anymore. And there is no point in procuring M2Ks that already passed their operational life, when we already produce the LCA and can get far better fighters like Rafale today.
The best idea would be to get rid of the Jags as fast as possible and get as much money for them, instead of wasting more money to upgrades, that doesn't make it more useful for IAF anymore. Today we still can find several countries with less funds and operational needs, that can make use of the Jags, but soon not even they will want them.