17 Militants Killed In PAF Strikes

[ajpirzada]

But Sir, look at what happened in East Pakistan. The Army lost the war when it lost the support of the locals. Just hoping that the Army will not mess it up this time is simply not enough.

While you point out that it may be a good thing that our Army is not accountable to the government, you will also know that such an arrangement in the long run is always self-defeating.

may be i didnt choose the words properly. but if this is what i conveyed then i dont agree with myself. army and every institution should be accountable to the government irrespective or short run or long run.

army did mess it up in east pakistan but that was mostly because of how civilians treated east pakistanis to start with. denying them their rights was not gonna work for long. and then trying to contain our wrongdoing through force was simply a bluff. if u ask me, ill say that no such operations are fruitful unless they are used as a tool in a more political solution to this conflict. my view is similar to IK when it comes to this insurgency thing.

without any political front, army doesnt have a choice but to continue with such targeted strikes. they are doing what they are supposed to do and that is to use fire power. its not their job to deal with the problem in any other way..

 

[Argus Panoptes]

may be i didnt choose the words properly. but if this is what i conveyed then i dont agree with myself. army and every institution should be accountable to the government irrespective or short run or long run.

army did mess it up in east pakistan but that was mostly because of how civilians treated east pakistanis to start with. denying them their rights was not gonna work for long. and then trying to contain our wrongdoing through force was simply a bluff. if u ask me, ill say that no such operations are fruitful unless they are used as a tool in a more political solution to this conflict. my view is similar to IK when it comes to this insurgency thing.

without any political front, army doesnt have a choice but to continue with such targeted strikes. they are doing what they are supposed to do and that is to use fire power. its not their job to deal with the problem in any other way..

Sir, your post highlights many things that led to disaster in the past are still true.

Our citizens in FATA do not have the same laws as the rest of us but are subject to FCR, and do not have universal suffrage. Their social development is even more abysmal compared to other parts of the country and it is leading them to radicalization. And our Army is doing the only thing it does best, to use force, without any real accountability.

To question whether this is the right thing for us to do is not stupidity nor is it non-patriotic. If we get it wrong this time like we did in the past, the consequences will be no less horrible either.

 

[ajpirzada]

Sir, your post highlights many things that led to disaster in the past are still true.

Our citizens in FATA do not have the same laws as the rest of us but are subject to FCR, and do not have universal suffrage. Their social development is even more abysmal compared to other parts of the country and it is leading them to radicalization. And our Army is doing the only thing it does best, to use force, without any real accountability.

To question whether this is the right thing for us to do is not stupidity nor is it non-patriotic. If we get it wrong this time like we did in the past, the consequences will be no less horrible either.

that is very right. i guess most us are not clear on what exactly are you questioning? is it they way we are dealing with the crisis as a whole? or is it how the army is conducting its operations? if it is the first one then im all with you. but if it is the latter then im slightly unsure if the army could do any better. to me the army is doing what it should be doing in this political vacuum - fighting. after all a soldier is trained to fight not to be diplomatic. dont u agree?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

that is very right. i guess most us are not clear on what exactly are you questioning? is it they way we are dealing with the crisis as a whole? or is it how the army is conducting its operations? if it is the first one then im all with you. but if it is the latter then im slightly unsure if the army could do any better. to me the army is doing what it should be doing in this political vacuum - fighting. after all a soldier is trained to fight not to be diplomatic. dont u agree?

Okay, let me try to be as clear as I can possibly be: my problems are mainly with the overall way we are dealing with the crisis, and only a little with the way the Army is conducting its operations. Please let me explain, starting with the Army.

The Army is doing exactly what it is being asked to do. I am in full support of our brave jawans and officers who have been sent into a very difficult area of operations, and they are doing a valiant job of clearing the area at great cost to themselves while trying to protect the civilians. If there is a criticism I have for them, it is only that we as the nation that stands behind the Army need to be told often and in detail just how operations are going, what steps are being taken to protect the population and who are the people being killed. Why is ISPR asleep with this sort of information? After all, we have nothing to hide, right? The odd Press Release is simply not enough. There should be weekly briefings and tours of the cleared areas for the media to see for themselves and to cover in the news programs, consistently and frequently. If they do not do this, then we will lose the propaganda war as the Taliban seed our mosques and madrassas with slickly produced video CDs that show off our Army in the worst possible light. Then our Army will do its job at great cost on hand and then have its own nation question its motives and tactics, creating a gulf of animosity that we cannot afford between the two.

Now let me come to our overall strategy. What is our plan to deal with the Taliban? Clearing the area is only the first step. Where are our plans to give the population of FATA a sense of belonging to Pakistan truly? Why are we not telling them and everyone else that FCR will be removed, that universal suffrage enjoyed by the rest of the country will come FATA, what are the plans to hand over FATA to the KPK provincial government as an integrated part of the province, the way things should be? All these things are not the Army's job, it is for the Federal and provincial governments to do. Where is the close co-operation and consultancy between the civilian and military sides to pick up the pieces in the aftermath of the military operations? Just expecting them to any of this on the basis of trust and hope is not enough. This process needs to be hashed out in the open, taking the entire nation on board with the process. "Trust us, we know what we are doing" is an approach that is known not to work very well for us.

Otherwise, we run the grave danger of losing this war. We have lost hundreds of our soldiers and thousands of our citizens in the last year alone. We need to demand accountability for all these lost lives from everyone concerned, so that these sacrifices do not go in vain.

I hope my point of view is clearer than before.

 

[ajpirzada]

Okay, let me try to be as clear as I can possibly be: my problems are mainly with the overall way we are dealing with the crisis, and only a little with the way the Army is conducting its operations. Please let me explain, starting with the Army.

The Army is doing exactly what it is being asked to do. I am in full support of our brave jawans and officers who have been sent into a very difficult area of operations, and they are doing a valiant job of clearing the area at great cost to themselves while trying to protect the civilians. If there is a criticism I have for them, it is only that we as the nation that stands behind the Army need to be told often and in detail just how operations are going, what steps are being taken to protect the population and who are the people being killed. Why is ISPR asleep with this sort of information? After all, we have nothing to hide, right? The odd Press Release is simply not enough. There should be weekly briefings and tours of the cleared areas for the media to see for themselves and to cover in the news programs, consistently and frequently. If they do not do this, then we will lose the propaganda war as the Taliban seed our mosques and madrassas with slickly produced video CDs that show off our Army in the worst possible light. Then our Army will do its job at great cost on hand and then have its own nation question its motives and tactics, creating a gulf of animosity that we cannot afford between the two.

Now let me come to our overall strategy. What is our plan to deal with the Taliban? Clearing the area is only the first step. Where are our plans to give the population of FATA a sense of belonging to Pakistan truly? Why are we not telling them and everyone else that FCR will be removed, that universal suffrage enjoyed by the rest of the country will come FATA, what are the plans to hand over FATA to the KPK provincial government as an integrated part of the province, the way things should be? All these things are not the Army's job, it is for the Federal and provincial governments to do. Where is the close co-operation and consultancy between the civilian and military sides to pick up the pieces in the aftermath of the military operations? Just expecting them to any of this on the basis of trust and hope is not enough. This process needs to be hashed out in the open, taking the entire nation on board with the process. "Trust us, we know what we are doing" is an approach that is known not to work very well for us.

Otherwise, we run the grave danger of losing this war. We have lost hundreds of our soldiers and thousands of our citizens in the last year alone. We need to demand accountability for all these lost lives from everyone concerned, so that these sacrifices do not go in vain.

I hope my point of view is clearer than before.

fair enough. i cant see y i should disagree with what more u r expecting with regards to FCR and Army being more interactive with the population concerning their operations.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

fair enough. i cant see y i should disagree with what more u r expecting with regards to FCR and Army being more interactive with the population concerning their operations.

First of all, shouldn't the government and the military be on the same page as regards strategy? I ask again, what is our game plan here, and how is it going to be implemented?

Dealing with Pakistan's extremists


Dealing with Pakistan’s extremists
The hawk and the dove
The new prime minister and his army chief profess different approaches to dealing with the Pakistani Taliban
Jun 1st 2013 | LAHORE |From the print edition


WHO knows what Pakistan’s two most powerful men spent three hours talking about when the army chief travelled to Lahore to pay a visit to Nawaz Sharif, the country’s incoming prime minister? But if they discussed schemes for taking on the group known as Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), they appear not to have agreed on how best to deal with the biggest threat to the country’s domestic security: militant Islamists hellbent on toppling the state.

Mr Sharif has long advocated a soft line. The TTP’s offer of talks with the government should, he said recently, be taken seriously. Why not “talk to the Taliban to make our country peaceful?” he asked. Later Mr Sharif’s officials asked an aged extremist, Sami ul Haq, the head of a madrassa near Peshawar, to act as an envoy.

It is unlikely that Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the army chief, approves of any of this. Last year he declared that the whole country should join in a “war against extremism and terrorism”. After the general election on May 11th, he congratulated Pakistanis for voting in huge numbers, despite threats from an “insignificant and misguided” TTP.

Diplomats who know the general are convinced this is not just rhetoric. Despite decades of support the army has given to militant groups fighting for what it perceives to be the national interest in Afghanistan and Kashmir, Mr Kayani seems convinced that tough action is now required to bring the Pakistani Taliban to heel.

Last year the army began preparations for military operations in North Waziristan, the most troubled of Pakistan’s seven “tribal agencies” near the Afghan frontier, following the attempted murder by a TTP gunman of a girl, Malala Yousafzai, who openly defied a Taliban edict that school is only for boys. Yet the onslaught never came, perhaps because public revulsion over the crime soon faded.

Although some progress has been made in re-establishing the state’s writ in some agencies, North Waziristan remains lawless, a haven for jihadists from all over the world. The only opposition the militants face are overhead drones operated by America’s CIA. On May 28th one such reportedly killed a number of militants, including Wali-ur-Rehman, the TTP’s second-in-command. The Pakistani authorities once offered a bounty for his arrest or death, so it will be hard for them to criticise America’s drone policy now.

For all General Kayani’s tough talk, Mr Sharif is determined not to be bossed around by his army chief. He will handle the defence and foreign portfolios himself, two areas traditionally seen as the army’s preserve. Some observers believe Mr Sharif’s calls for peace talks are a way to buy time in order to concentrate on fixing a decrepit economy and the country’s dire electricity shortages. Just possibly, however, his overture to the Pakistani Taliban could be part of a cunning plan to lay the ground for a military response, once he has conclusively proved that seeking peace with the Pakistani Taliban is a fool’s errand.

More likely, says Hasan Askari Rizvi, a security analyst, Mr Sharif’s call for talks is a reflection of the country’s muddled thinking about the TTP. Despite its murderous campaigns around the country, the movement is widely regarded as an understandable reaction to the American-led war in Afghanistan. Many members of Mr Sharif’s own party, the Pakistan Muslim League (N), hold this view.

Ejaz Haider, a commentator, believes that formal negotiations would bestow huge prestige on the TTP, while proving the impossibility of giving the group what it wants, namely, an end to the Pakistani state in its current form. Overwhelming counterforce, sooner or later, may be the state’s only remaining option.

 

[ajpirzada]

well watever is to be done must be done by the politicians. army is no position to take the oxygen away from the taliban narrative. destroy their narrative and then destroy them by the use of military if the government sees it fit.. without taking their narrative away from them, they'll keep rising

 

[Argus Panoptes]

well watever is to be done must be done by the politicians. army is no position to take the oxygen away from the taliban narrative. destroy their narrative and then destroy them by the use of military if the government sees it fit.. without taking their narrative away from them, they'll keep rising

And as we fail to destroy them, we will be paying a heavy prices with precious lives:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...shaheed-embraced-martyrdom-kurram-agency.html

We owe it our ourselves to make sure these losses are not wasted.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

I am all up for protecting the innocent. The question is why would a hideout be located in a civilian area where they can easily be exposed. Most of the hideout are in caves and mountain and i cant think of any reason for civilians to be there. Protecting terrorists is also an act of terrorism.

Hideouts? taliban have their own territories and control villages............

The caves system is in Afghanistan not FATA.....

Unlike Afghan taliban of 90s, the taliban of FATA do not have distinct get up, they dont wear black turbans and style of shalwar kamees distinct to taliban .....a mehsud taliban look like any other mehsud, long hears and waziri cap......In any village it is impossible for outsider to tell apart taliban from a common mehsud or any other tribal......Most of the targets of Pakistan airforce are always buildings, houses within population.......collateral damage is always higher than drones....

There are atleast one million armed men in FATA, taliban are only 10-15 thousands...........except few half-hearted aman lashkars , most of the tribals are not cooperating with Pak army for obvious reasons..........................

Agree with you. pak-Afghan Border should seal and there should be proper posts along with complete border line. (Although it would be expensive bcz Pak Army will need to post more than 70K troops for this purpose)

Tribals on either side of border would oppose any such move.

 

[Xeric]

It is very despicable to drop bomb on your own territory, on your own people.......



Announcement of military operation is one thing , no warning for air strikes are issued which are carried out even without any military operation going on..........

Usually around three days are given for evacuation in operation......not enough time for lakhs of population to leave the area....as no transport on required scale is available, so they walk on foot.....and are mostly caught in offensive of pak fauj.....thousands of families are unable to leave the area for various reasons and and portion of them become collateral damage as Pak army shell and bomb each house of the village when operation starts.....




They dont care.....one thing they have made sure is that no reporting of collateral damages, disappearances and damages are accessed to media......


They do not need any permission from tribal elders and jirgas to launch any operation ...they are only asked to form tribal lashkars to assist them in operation , they use them on front lines and as shield to protect themselves....l

Looks as if you have been thinking from your behind lately?


On a serious note, do you any proof to substantiate your accusations, or should i assume you are just having a bad day?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Looks as if you have been thinking from your behind lately?


On a serious note, do you any proof to substantiate your accusations, or should i assume you are just having a bad day?

You have no answer , so you have resorted to name calling, mr.think tank.

I have my own sources.........

 

[Secur]

I have my own sources.

We know your credibility , better not post some other ' made up ' stories from a dozen different areas you live in and prove again how your location and stances change hourly .

It is very despicable to drop bomb on your own territory, on your own people.

But wise to kill 50,000 of my countrymen ?

What is actually despicable is that you have no idea how asymmetric wars are fought and yet try to be an expert on it .

Remember , when I explained to you , about the curfews imposed when the convoys are moving .

You didn't understand things then , you do not understand them now . What is the difference ?

 

[Xeric]

]

Hideouts? taliban have their own territories and control villages............

The caves system is in Afghanistan not FATA.....

Really?

i would suggest you see the video reports on our military ops by Al Jazera..

There are atleast one million armed men in FATA, taliban are only 10-15 thousands...........except few half-hearted aman lashkars , most of the tribals are not cooperating with Pak army for obvious reasons..........................

And whats reasons might that be?

 

[Secur]

Announcement of military operation is one thing , no warning for air strikes are issued which are carried out even without any military operation going on.

They dont care.....one thing they have made sure is that no reporting of collateral damages, disappearances and damages are accessed to media......


They do not need any permission from tribal elders and jirgas to launch any operation ...they are only asked to form tribal lashkars to assist them in operation , they use them on front lines and as shield to protect themselves....l

Yeah , warn the militants beforehand that the jets are coming to send them to hell so they can retreat or leave the area , wonderful logic !

Ask militants to not kill the journalists then , because media is allowed to go into the tribal areas by the army , actually encouraged . The access is restricted by Talibans and other factions , who do not want ' news ' coming out .

Why do they form Lashkars ( militias ) then if they do not support the army ? Prove what you said about human shields . Surely , if that was the case , they would have stopped following Govt's order by now .

 

[Xeric]

You have no answer , so you have resorted to name calling, mr.think tank.

I have my own sources.........

Well, i that case your post is being classified as a baseless accusation and will be deleted.

P.S FYKI, i have served in the area, and still go there atleast on fortnightly basis, so i can assure you that your 'source' is just a figment of your mind.