17 Militants Killed In PAF Strikes

[Argus Panoptes]

People should also be concerned with the silence over the deaths of civilians and armed forces by terrorists but people nowadays are more concerned with dead terrorists rather than their own people. If our armed forces started second guessing themselves while fighting a war then we already lost. A moment of hesitation on ground can be the death of a jawan.

Yes, all civilian deaths should be a matter for concerned since they are not participants in any war.

And why do you doubt that those killed were not militants?

It's a stypud question. But then for the sake of it, i must tell you;

These are not drone attacks on a foreign territory, rather a bomb run on Pakistani (our own land).

The area where we operate is cleared of, either by announcements or by warnings. In either case, instead of taking the militants by surprise, we prefer to sacrifice it in favor on limiting collateral damage, which in turn makes it more difficult foe us and increase our casualties. We deliberately let go of the surprise factor by indirectly announcing about an operation e.g. all of the operation that we have done were discussed on news channels, newspapers, social media 3-6 months before they commenced. So everybody knew that we are going to torch the area very soon, so buckle up! Why? primarily because the locals can leave the area, whereby, any one still having the balls ti stay their probably has an issue with the Army and thus will face its wrath.

Collateral damage is the single most thing that can damage the repo, trust and efficiency of any force, and hence we re very touchy about it.

Lastly, the local leaders / jirgas are always taken into confidence before an operation is launched.

And why should i not doubt who were killed because other than name-calling, all you can come up with is "trust us, we are very careful" without any other details?

This is exactly what the Americans say when they kill our civilians as collateral damage in drone strikes too.

So what is the difference?

If the thickhead militants like BLA has the common sense and the capability to portray hardcore terrorist as college students and blame gaibana abduction ob the LEAs, these processional terrorists of the North are way ahead of them when it comes to propaganda. If you have any doubts, just visit YT.

Just a few days back i was surprised to see when i saw a video by Talibans where they were portraying themselves as heroes and angles by telling the viewers with so called video proof that see, we are not animals and we also are humane because we only target the ISAF and not ordinary civilians and we have even aborted attacks on convoys when we saw that civilians might we effected by the attack/blast. They even show clips where they tried to prove this. Now just see their propaganda machinery at work, and you think they would let go if civilians were killed in this attack?!

After all, you are not so bright , i guess.

The name-calling continues but now we have the added twist of "if they are quiet, it must be because who we killed were not civilians".

We better be sure Sir. Those pakhtoon tribes will never forgive us if we are making a mistake.

that silence is bec of the ownership of the strikes. we expect our army to be more conscious when it comes to avoiding civilian causality. having seen the swat operation, im confident that the military is well equipped with regards to targeted strikes. this is not to say that the possibility of what you suggest does not exist.

Here we finally have some honesty. We are silent because it is our own armed forces doing the killing, but we cannot be sure that all those killed were terrorists, based on just their word.


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Based on the above, it can be concluded we have no moral authority to challenge the drone killings either, since the only difference is who is pushing the button. We are being forced to believe the mantra that "we are very careful in killing only the bad guys" without any proof.

Until the truth emerges later.

 

[Xeric]

Based on the above, it can be concluded we have no moral authority to challenge the drone killings either, since the only difference is who is pushing the button. We are being forced to believe the mantra that "we are very careful in killing only the bad guys" without any proof.

Until the truth emerges later.

Hmmm....so that was that actual point you wanted to convey by playing up the blame game. i should have known.


On a serious note, have you ever thought why would the media come to know after a drone strike that civilians have been killed, but not when 'we are pushing the button'?

Now dont come up the rehtorics of military not allowing access to facts. There are quite a number of such facts which were detrimental to military's image but they found their way to the media via one way or the other.


You accepted AJ's generalised reply because it contained 'some honesty' as per your comprehension, but when i gave you 4 points which are hard facts, are known to me as i am witness to it and can be confirmed from any source, you reject it squarely. Bravo!

Says alot about your intentions, my dear.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Hmmm....so that was that actual point you wanted to convey by playing up the blame game. i should have known.


On a serious note, have you ever thought why would the media come to know after a drone strike that civilians have been killed, but not when 'we are pushing the button'?

Now dont come up the rehtorics of military not allowing access to facts. There are quite a number of such facts which were detrimental to military's image but they found their way to the media via one way or the other.


You accepted AJ's generalised reply because it contained 'some honesty' as per your comprehension, but when i gave you 4 points which are hard facts, are known to me as i am witness to it and can be confirmed from any source, you reject it squarely. Bravo!

Says alot about your intentions, my dear.

Sir, your points are generally applicable indicating the process followed to reduce the likelihood of civilian deaths, and I appreciate that.

Now please tell me that this process was also followed in this particular strike, and release a list of the names, genders and ages of those killed as "militants" at this location.

Rather than questioning my motives, please know that I want our armed forces to be seen as being totally above board and honest. Because if we lose this battle of credibility, we will be in a heap of trouble, and not just in FATA.

That is my motivation which you cannot seem to understand.

Oh, by the way, no wonder the world laughs at us when we keep on saying useless things like this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...ncern-regret-over-recent-us-drone-attack.html

 

[Xeric]

i am sure mustn't have noticed that PAF has carried out more than 5K air strikes in FATA since 2008 (PAF conducted 5,500 bombing runs in Fata since 2008 – The Express Tribune), and let's say even 1/4 of it resulted in collateral damage and still the military is able to put a lid on it, i then have nothing but praise for the military for its astonishing capability in censoring news in the 21st century. Atleast you should credit us for this mean feat!

Moreover, your comparison of drone strikes with PAF bomb runs just shows your naivety as regards to your knowledge about the ops, as i must educate you that todate no drone attack has ever taken place in the agencies where Pak Army is or had operated. Almost all of these drone strikes have taken place in areas where military ops by own forces are not being conducted - this fact just strengthens by point that where ever our military operates, we make the locals vacate the area or take them in confidence as compared to a drone strike which just bangs its way even in populated areas with no warning (thus achieving surprise which we sacrifice, though it is against military teachings, but it favors our policy of 'co civilian casualty') and in the process kill innocent civilians.

This is sheer common sense, which ofcourse is not quite common.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

i am sure mustn't have noticed that PAF has carried out more than 5K air strikes in FATA since 2008 (PAF conducted 5,500 bombing runs in Fata since 2008 – The Express Tribune), and let's say even 1/4 of it resulted in collateral damage and still the military is able to put a lid on it, i then have nothing but praise for the military for its astonishing capability in censoring news in the 21st century. Atleast you should credit us for this mean feat!

Moreover, your comparison of drone strikes with PAF bomb runs just shows your naivety as regards to your knowledge about the ops, as i must educate you that todate no drone attack has ever taken place in the agencies where Pak Army is or had operated. Almost all of these drone strikes have taken place in areas where military ops by own forces are not being conducted - this fact just strengthens by point that where ever our military operates, we make the locals vacate the area or take them in confidence as compared to a drone strike which just bangs its way even in populated areas with no warning (thus achieving surprise which we sacrifice, though it is against military teachings, but it favors our policy of 'co civilian casualty') and in the process kill innocent civilians.

This is sheer common sense, which ofcourse is not quite common.

Again, thank you for all the general principles being followed by PAF in ensuring minimal civilian casualties.

So when do we get to hear about the names of those killed in this particular attack? After all, we are being told they were all militants, so their identities must be known to those who called the attack, right?

 

[SHAMK9]

“Pakistan is a neighbor and a brother of Afghanistan.

Not really but thanks for the nice comments.

 

[Xeric]

No one releases the names, gender and age of militants who are killed, nor does the names of soldiers who embrace shahadat are released, not all the names.

First, it was the rehtorics of 'where is the Army dumping the bodies of the militants that are killed on daily basis, must be lie because we dont see their bodies', and when it lost ground, you come up with the theory of "Nominal Rolls of expired Militants', funny!

BTW, have you ever thought, these 'innocent' civilians who might have died at our hands must be someones brother, father, husband or son. Surely, the Army must also have silenced the kins of those who died at its hands, right?

Tn these times where cell ph cameras and internet has made it impossible to hid anything from the public, you accuse the Army for (successfully) hiding a particular piece if info since the past decade?! As i said earlier, it's a mean feat!

 

[Argus Panoptes]

No one releases the names, gender and age of militants who are killed, nor does the names of soldiers who embrace shahadat are released, not all the names.

First, it was the rehtorics of 'where is the Army dumping the bodies of the militants that are killed on daily basis, must be lie because we dont see their bodies', and when it lost ground, you come up with the theory of "Nominal Rolls of expired Militants', funny!

BTW, have you ever thought, these 'innocent' civilians who might have died at our hands must be someones brother, father, husband or son. Surely, the Army must also have silenced the kins of those who died at its hands, right?

Tn these times where cell ph cameras and internet has made it impossible to hid anything from the public, you accuse the Army for (successfully) hiding a particular piece if info since the past decade?! As i said earlier, it's a mean feat!

Sir @Xeric may be I am not able to explain my point to you clearly enough.

We need to very careful in setting the standards of disclosure as we mount military operations in our own country. The exactness of the methodology with which we execute our own citizens is being watched all over the world, and we must remain totally honest and above board in whatever we are doing.

I am not accusing the Army of anything untoward. All I am asking for are as many details as possible so that we all can see that it is only the militants being killed. Anything less, and we lose the moral grounds to protest at drone strikes or anything else that kills our fellow citizens.

Being so defensive is understandable, but the wrong thing to do at this time. Our Army needs to go overboard in being open to the country. I cannot stress this enough.

You are again saying that since there is no hue and cry by family survivors, all those killed must be militants. Surely that is not a good inference given how severe the clampdown on the areas in which the operations are being carried out.

This is similar to the shameful way we as a nation have dealt with the missing persons cases. If we do not provide the justice of due process to our own citizens, how can we protest at our people being denied due process anywhere else?

Does that help you understand my point of view Sir?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

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Now the number of "militants" killed has risen to 34, with 3 soldiers embracing shahadat:

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

34 militants, three soldiers dead in clashes

ISLAMABAD: At least 34 militants and three soldiers were killed in gunfights in a restive Pakistani tribal region where troops have now gained control of strategic heights, officials said Friday. The clashes took place in an area between the tribal districts of Kurram and Khyber, in the villages of Para Chamkani and Maidan, during an operation against Taliban militants. “During the last 24 hours at least 34 militants have been killed in the operation,” a senior security official told AFP. A second security official based in northwestern Peshawar city confirmed the toll. Earlier in the day, the military said in a statement that 19 militants were killed and 12 others were wounded and three of its soldiers also died in gunfights. The dominating heights of the mountainous area had also been cleared or occupied by forces, the statement said. The death toll could not be verified by independent sources as the area is out of bounds for media due to ongoing military operations. The fighting took place in the wake of a fresh military push in the Tirah valley in Khyber tribal district, where the military has been targeting Taliban and Lashkar-e-Islam militia threatening the nearby city of Peshawar. Khyber straddles the NATO supply line into Afghanistan, used by US-led troops to evacuate military equipment ahead of their 2014 withdrawal. AFP

 

[ajpirzada]

Based on the above, it can be concluded we have no moral authority to challenge the drone killings either, since the only difference is who is pushing the button. We are being forced to believe the mantra that "we are very careful in killing only the bad guys" without any proof.

Until the truth emerges later.

well to me it seems that you are undermining the issue of the 'ownership of strikes.' ownership issue is essential when it comes to determining who has how much of an incentive to achieve a certain objective and at what cost. to me if the drone strikes are carried out by our military, i wont be against them. but as long as the button is pressed by someone who is not accountable to us then i have a serious issue even if all the drone strikes hit the target.
furthermore, that an outsider is making the strikes inside ur country is itself enough to give support to the taliban narrative of holy war against US and why not?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

well to me it seems that you are undermining the issue of the 'ownership of strikes.' ownership issue is essential when it comes to determining who has how much of an incentive to achieve a certain objective and at what cost. to me if the drone strikes are carried out by our military, i wont be against them. but as long as the button is pressed by someone who is not accountable to us then i have a serious issue even if all the drone strikes hit the target.
furthermore, that an outsider is making the strikes inside ur country is itself enough to give support to the taliban narrative of holy war against US and why not?

Sir, may I dare ask the obvious: Is our military accountable to anyone but itself? Be honest please.

And just to be very clear, I do not agree with the premises upon which the drone strikes are being carried out.

 

[tarrar]

Excellent work by PAF. PAF should be used heavily to destroy & break these rented terrorists. I hope Pakistan buys Fleet of Armed Drones so that the burden is reduced on Pak Army.

 

[ajpirzada]

Sir, may I dare ask the obvious: Is our military accountable to anyone but itself? Be honest please.

And just to be very clear, I do not agree with the premises upon which the drone strikes are being carried out.

even if they are not (which is mostly the case), they still have every incentive to not mess up their relations with the locals of the tribal area or where ever the operation is carried out. in insurgency and counter-insurgency, everyone banks on the local support. there is no other way... u take a step back in ur relations with locals, ur enemy takes a step forward.
this itself is a significant check without being apologetic that the army is largely not accountable to the government.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

even if they are not (which is mostly the case), they still have every incentive to not mess up their relations with the locals of the tribal area or where ever the operation is carried out. in insurgency and counter-insurgency, everyone banks on the local support. there is no other way... u take a step back in ur relations with locals, ur enemy takes a step forward.
this itself is a significant check without being apologetic that the army is largely not accountable to the government.

But Sir, look at what happened in East Pakistan. The Army lost the war when it lost the support of the locals. Just hoping that the Army will not mess it up this time is simply not enough.

While you point out that it may be a good thing that our Army is not accountable to the government, you will also know that such an arrangement in the long run is always self-defeating.

 

[Rocky rock]

Nice Job Keep it up! PAF! Our prayers are with you...Soon.IN SHA ALLAH PAKISTAN will be free from every kind of Taliban's militant's or any other threat...LONG LIVE PAF & PAK