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17 Militants Killed In PAF Strikes

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Sarcasm aside, I just wanted the names of those claimed to have been killed as militants, that is all. Do we even know who we are killing? How? And if we are killing without knowing who they are, then who are we trying to deceive but ourselves?

These are hard questions to answer, but they will answered sooner or later. No Army can kill its own people without repercussions for long, unless it is on solid grounds and with the backing of its nation.

Is it practical or possible in the first place ? If an important Taliban leader/commander is killed , the ISPR and the media reports it . The unnamed remains unnamed . Same is true for soldiers , just how much information is released ?

How exactly do you want a confirmation by publishing bio data of every militant sent to hell during the airstrike ? Just , how ? The Pakistan Army mounts an operation on solid HUMINT after taking precautions to ensure to every possible level that civilians aren't hurt , collateral damage is a reality when the enemy doesn't wear uniform and the dynamics of asymmetric warfare make it difficult for the security forces to carry out these operations . Airstrikes are carried out on known militant hideouts , not the city markets or mosques or schools .

No army is killing its own people nowhere , unless we have started considering ' militants ' as our own angry brothers * like some politicians shamelessly said recently * . If it had , we would have lost the war already . I have no problem with anyone ' being critical ' , I just do not like people caring more about the terrorists than the general populace .
 
i think these 40K IDPs from Tirah just happened to come from 'just a few KMs from there', no? IRIN Asia | Fighting in Pakistan

Hey Pak-one, did you also walk it out as you claim to live 'near' the area or you still are holed up in one of the 'houses' which is waiting to be blown to kingdom come by the Fauj, better buckle up, eh?

Note: Apart from the fact that these IDPs had to suffer the rigors of war as they fled, but mind that the news is from 1 Apr, atleast a week before the operation gained momentum.

Only 40 thousands IDPs while population of tirah is around 2 lakh....many families got trapped in tirah while pak air force and artillary started pounding "militant hideouts"...which are nothing but villages....few weeks ago an FC personal opened fire on pak soldiers in khyber agency, can you guess why? ..just go to peshawer and interview tirahwals, and ask them to express their love for pak army......gaali sey barrh kar bi kuch wasool ho sakta he.
 
Is it practical or possible in the first place ? If an important Taliban leader/commander is killed , the ISPR and the media reports it . The unnamed remains unnamed . Same is true for soldiers , just how much information is released ?

How exactly do you want a confirmation by publishing bio data of every militant sent to hell during the airstrike ? Just , how ? The Pakistan Army mounts an operation on solid HUMINT after taking precautions that civilians aren't hurt , collateral damage is a reality when the enemy doesn't wear uniform and the dynamics of asymmetric warfare make it difficult for the security forces . Airstrikes are carried out on known militant hideouts , not the city markets or mosques .

No army is killing its own people , unless we have started considering ' militants ' as our own angry brothers * like some politicians shamelessly said * . If it had , we would have lost the war already . I have no problem with anyone ' being critical ' , I just do not like people caring more about the terrorists than the general populace .

That is the whole point Sir @Secur. Unless those being killed are identified, we have nothing but the Army's word that they are not killing innocents. This is much too important to be left to those doing the killing to say they are killing militants unless they are identified.

The reason this is so important is not because of sympathy with the trrrorists, it is to prevent the inevitable blowback that will surely come if we are not doing it right.

We should seek proof that we are indeed killing only militants and not our own innocents.
 
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Such accusations should not be made without proof. What are your sources for the incidents in bold above?

Local wazir and mehsud tribesmen....you can confirm it from ayaz wazir, former ambassador....waziruk@hotmail.com

That is the whole point Sir @Secur. Unless those being killed are identified, we have nothing but the Army's word that they are not killing innocents. This is much too important to be left to those doing the killing to say they are killing militants unless they are identified.

The reason this is so important is not because of sympathy with the trrrorists, it is to prevent the inevitable blowback that will surely come if we are not doing it right.

We should seek proof that we are indeed killing only militants and not our own innocents.

Contrary to common belief....presence of pak army, air force strikes, curfews, military operations , shelling etc are more troubling tribals than drone strikes.
 
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That is the whole point Sir @Secur. Unless those being killed are identified, we have nothing but the Army's word that they are not killing innocents. This is much too important to be left to those doing the killing to say they are killing militants unless they are identified.

The reason this is so important is not because of sympathy with the trrrorists, it is to prevent the inevitable blowback that will surely come if we are not doing it right.

We should seek proof that we are indeed killing only militants and not our own innocents.

No , mate , you aren't getting the whole point . A group of militants can be identified at a location and then be killed any any mean be it artillery or airstrikes or boots on the ground however there is no possible way to identify each one of them as you are asking it to be . Human Intelligence can tell the forces where the terrorists are and what are they planning at times even list key people , but an unnamed recruit remains unnamed . Important militants are named and their details are published , aren't they ? But there are unnamed terrorists with no dossiers available on them , they dont wear uniforms like the military . Other countries have fought such wars in the past , have a look at that . Was it done ? No , because its just not possible !

I quite understand , my friend . Do you not think it would have came down by now if we were trigger happy and didn't care for the people ?

How ? What do you have in mind besides this ' NADRA ' sort of stuff ? :D
 
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@Xeric , do deny the following?

1- At army check posts in FATA, there are no stop or halt signs,
A professional Army that has been operating in the area since a decade would know how to establish a simple CP, and wouldnt erect barriers nor would it place any kind of warnings, right? Is that what you wanted you say? If yes, then i really feel sorry for you as you know nothing of the military operations nor are you aware of any of happenongs in the area.


people are themselves supposed to know where to stop their vehicles, at a distance well clear of the post. Those who unwittingly makes the slightest mistake, bullets are sprayed on them..lot of unpleasants accidents have occured, in many instances families got killed when they didnt stop at the specific distance.
Funny, right?

You should feel ashamed before making such an absurd claim. You speak as if it's a child's play while fighting an insurgency and collateral damage is widely accepted. The Army couldnt have survived a month if God forbid there had been any such incident.

Moreover the driver has to raise his hand in air as in surrender while walking towards check post, a security measure, but awkward and insulting for a tribal in his own area.
There is nothing insulting in this, what would you do if challenged by someone holding a gun for a bonafide purpose sanction specifically by the govt that legislate you?

Apart from this, we take utmost care in this regard, i have served in Balochistan during the peak period when Bugti was killed, and i exactly know how difficult it had been to check our Balochi brothers with turbans, but guess what, we checked them also, and they never complained, because there's a thing know as understanding and trust. Not that we would remove the turbans or something, but when things take p;ace with mutual understanding, issues are always resolved amicably.

2- You can not overtake a military vehicle in FATA and adjacent settled territories in south, fire would be opened on you if you try to overtake it. In the one of the incident in my area, a wedding coach tried to overtake a large and slow military truck, bullets were sprayed on coach killing 12 individuals including groom who was sitting in the front seat.

There are approx 3 Divisions in FATA, one Artillery unit alone has more than 112 vehicles, so 3-4 artillery units in each Divisional Artillery, plus the Infantry, Armour, Engineers, Signals, EME, Ordnance, S n T, Docs/Medical etc. The figure come down to a few thousand vehicals. Then there are over 80 K troops who require food, rations, supplies, ammo, clothing etc...i guess, atleast 20-25 convoys (of 15-30 vehicles each) would move atleast twice a day from their bases to froward areas. Now, at this rate, i think all of FATA and evey weddding there should have been 'sprayed with bullets' by now, no?

You are a douchebag!

3- Heavy use of artillary and mortars by army whenever their checkposts are attacked. Heavy collateral damage occurs from use of heavy weaponry by army, lot of civilian deaths and damage to properties.
Yep, we use artillery.

FYKI, no heavy arty is used, only medium and field caliber is being deployed there with mortars.

We also use tanks, and airforce. But then 'heavy collateral damage' dont occur because of 'heavy weapons', but because of their incorrect use, which we dont.

So educate yourself!

4- Army doesnt know how to interact with locals neither they are trained for it, searches and checking by army is stern and gruff...check posts at every second with army having this attitude, tribals feel as if they dont belong to pakistan. It should be done through FC and levies who belong to area and know how to interact with locals.

The Army has been there for more than a DECADE now. If that had been the case, by now people would have been so against the Army that there had been no Lashkars, IDPs would not have been looked after and they would have shown no respect for the 'outsiders' (Army) who have been residing among them since the past 10 years.

Dude, a biy who was 10 in 2002 is now an adult now, and with the kind of image you are portraying for the Army, things should have been different, instead, the rate of youth joining the Army from FATA have never been so high in the hisory of Pakistan!!


5- Heavy use of air strikes in FATA, cause heavy collateral damage. In addition to human losses , Air strikes by jet fighters destroy houses, shops, markets, crops etc. The fact that high level air force is used on them, makes tribals feel that they are treated as adversaries and their area as enemy territory.

Houses are destroying, shops are damaged etc etc, yes they are so that they cannot be used as hideouts and shelters by the militants. But the owners are paid compensations, i think you missed that too when you fled the area. PM me, i'll make sure you get your rightful share in shape of compensation.

i think it is this 'lack of compensation' that is bothering you and thus you hate speech, right?



6- Wherever operation has taken place in FATA, the area present the view of war zone. Houses, shops, madrassas and other buildings are demolished...these are poor people , they wont be able to re-construct it. No aid to assist them.
Like i said, they are compensated to the extent possible, or else what do you think those over a million IDPs would have done after they were reverted without compensation? Use you facking brain!


8- More than million IDPs in KPK...due to operation rahe e nijat in south and situation in north waziristan...they were asked by military to leave the area without provision of food and shelter. They are in very bad condition in camps. Those who returned to south waziristan , found their houses completely destroyed. They are living in conditions like refugees in their own waziristan...they are proud people, their dignity is badly injured.

The IDP operation was the biggest in the world to date, though it was not ideal and shortcomings were there, however no country has handled such an issue ever and as it was done by us. The entire Nation is witness to it!

i feel sorry for the IDPs and accept all the mistakes due to which they had to suffer, but at the same time, i can assure you that the actions by the military as regards to IDPs are being taken as standards by most countries.


9- When army caravan move on road, first road is cleared then there is automatic curfew , no announcement to locals. When you see approaching caravan from far distance, you have to halt at your location. Army shoots any moving human being at sight...lot of ugly incidents have occured in which many people including childern were shot because they were moving when army caravan was approaching.

You are a liar!

Normally RODs (Road Opening Days) are not held in major towns/cities which are still populated and thus it can be assumed that they are safer than the wilderness. However, RODs to take place in the far flung areas, routes are surely picquted and at times curfews imposed. But it is normally only for the duration for which the convoy is moving.

Moreover, when the civilians have already vacated the area, there exactly isnt any civilian who is affected by these measures, yep, militants do have a problem with this, i hope you are not one of them?


10- "Action in Aid of Civil Power Ordinance, 2011" is imposed on FATA for the purpose of giving a free hand to troops to conduct search-and-arrest operations without prior notice. The law even empowers them to execute any person without due legal process on the basis of mere suspicion that he or she may have, or might establish, links with militants...



This is the text of the "The Actions (in Aid of Civil Power) Regulation, 2011":

The Actions (in Aid of Civil Power) Regulation, 2011 | The Institute for Social Justice (ISJ)

Readers can go through it and decide for themselves.
 
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@Xeric, though your answer was ISPRish but i am thankful for giving time to each point of my post...................
 
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My stance on Pak army is very clear....they are acting as servants of america and are fighting this war for america......one phone call aur dair ho gaya commando...then on american order army went to waziristan...got beaten by nek mohammad....so army made peace deal with him in shikai...but then back-stabbed him by asking america to drone him...nek mohamad became shaheed and his grave became shrine...tribals noticed your treachery and became more aggressive against you....now entire FATA is burning after decade...history shows us that armies have failed in this region, it is like swamp, the more you try , the more deeper you are trapped....this war would go on for decades, does pak army has that much stamina? I dont think so.
 
10- "Action in Aid of Civil Power Ordinance, 2011" is imposed on FATA for the purpose of giving a free hand to troops to conduct search-and-arrest operations without prior notice. The law even empowers them to execute any person without due legal process on the basis of mere suspicion that he or she may have, or might establish, links with militants...

This is the text of the "The Actions (in Aid of Civil Power) Regulation, 2011":

The Actions (in Aid of Civil Power) Regulation, 2011 | The Institute for Social Justice (ISJ)

Readers can go through it and decide for themselves.

You guys have listened to a kid, now let's see what experts have to say on 'Actions in Aid of Civ Power 2011':

Actions in aid of civil power - 'Regulation to Provide for Actions in Aid of Civil Power in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA),


By
Hamza Khalid Randhawa

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. In times of conflict, ordinary legal remedies provided by a state often fail to address the extraordinary circumstances occurring during armed conflicts or internal disturbances. The standard objective of a legal system is to provide stability in the everyday conduct by enacting sanctions. Wars are not everyday matters. The international law in general and the international humanitarian law in particular are geared towards allowing for civility to remain in situations, which are by definition not civil.


There is ample legal jurisprudence to authorise internment of an accused in criminal proceedings. However, in times of an armed conflict or civil war, an explicit legal basis for deprivation of liberty is scarce. Legally, it is unclear whether states can, as a matter of right or by way of an implied authorisation, detain individuals as a preventive measure for ensuring security in a region. In practice, however, the armed forces of various states prefer the acting as a 'matter of right. Logically, if internment in times of an armed conflict is disallowed, then the only other alternatives would be to either release or exterminate the captured individuals. Adopting the first alternative would undoubtedly lack military prudence, while the second alternative would be against the existing norms of international law. Many have proposed that this vacuum between theory and practice be filled by explicitly incorporating the concept of internment within international law.


By promulgating the 'Regulation to Provide for Actions in Aid of Civil Power in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), Pakistan has created a unique legislative structure. It not only conforms to the existing norms of international human rights and humanitarian law, but also expands it by providing a legislative framework that permits internment in times of an armed conflict or internal disturbance. According to this newly laid regulation, the armed forces of Pakistan may be requisitioned by the federal government to provide assistance to the law enforcement agencies in areas indicated by the Governor of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa from time to time. To this end, it allows for the internment of 'miscreants, the definition of which broadly includes: terrorists, non-state actors, and nationals or foreigners, who intend to commit or have committed offences under the regulation.


Regarding internment, Article 10 of the Constitution of Pakistan provides safeguards against unlawful arrest and detention, as a fundamental right to every person. Subsection 2 of it states: Every person, who is arrested and detained in custody, shall be produced before a magistrate within a period of 24 hours of such arrest, excluding the time necessary for the journey from the place of arrest to the court of the nearest magistrate, and no such person shall be detained in custody beyond the said period without the authority of a magistrate. A bare reading of this Article suggests that this fundamental right is applicable at all times, notwithstanding any distinction between situations of armed violence where the forces have been deployed (exceptional circumstances) and regular law enforcement actions by police. Because no distinction was made prior to the passing of this new regulation, even the armed forces were obliged to arrest the accused and hand them over to the civil law enforcement agencies allowing them to indict the accused under various penal laws of Pakistan. In the case of an alleged illegal detention, the aggrieved could claim the right of habeas corpus afforded under the international human rights law and guaranteed by Pakistans Constitution. In essence, this right allows a person deprived of their liberty to challenge the vires of detention through a judicial review under Article 199 of the Constitution. This habeas corpus requirement, although appropriate in times of peace in the country, does not reflect the exceptional nature of armed violence in certain areas of Pakistan. It would be unreasonable and ill-advised to suggest handing over a captured miscreant to a magistrate within 24 hours of his arrest during a protracted and intense combat situation. The new regulation has thus filled this legal vacuum by drawing its justification from Article 245 of the Constitution. This Article mandates the armed forces to act in aid of civil power. Subsection 3 of this Article obliges the High Courts, not to exercise any jurisdiction under Article 199 in relation to any area in which the Armed Forces of Pakistan are, for the time being..


In this way, the regulation is an instance of lex specialis (law governing a specific subject matter) applicable only when required by imperative reasons of security. It allows the armed forces to detain an accused miscreant until a formal notification terminating action in aid of civil power is passed by the federal government. Following the notification, the detained personnel would again be afforded the due process of law by handing them over to the civil law enforcement agencies.


When exceptional measures are employed in exceptional times, their execution should maintain a balance between regional and international interests. Pakistans 'Regulation to Provide for Actions in Aid of Civil Power in FATA incorporates these interests quite effectively.

The writer is Executive Director of the Research Society of International Law (RSIL). Email: Hamza Randhawa@rsilpak.org

http://rsilpak.org/files/publicatio...aid of civil power.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,792
 
War against the Taliban: Govt tramples on civil rights in tribal areas – The Express Tribune

In a little-noticed presidential ordinance promulgated on June 28, security forces operating in Fata and Pata have been given virtually unbridled powers to act as judge, jury and executioner for anyone held on charges of terrorism in the tribal areas, in a bill that is likely to undermine the civil rights of people living in the tribal areas.
Under the ordinance titled “Action in Aid of Civil Power”, security forces would have the power to detain any person they deem a threat to public order foras long as 120 days, with relatively little oversight.
The security forces would have the power to imprison any person in the tribal areas indefinitely, conduct a trial in which they could award life imprisonment or even the death penalty to anyone accused of terrorism or collaborating with the militants.
The citizens of the tribal areas would have no judicial recourse if they are abused by the military since the ordinance calls for any such allegations to be investigated within the military hierarchy.
But perhaps what is most disturbing about the bill is the fact that the testimony of any military officer would be deemed sufficient to prove a person’s guilt.
“Any member of the armed forces, or any authority official deposing on his behalf in or any official statement or before the court to prove any event offence or happening, shall be deemed to have proved the event, offence or happening by his statement or deposition and no other statements, deposition or evidence required,” states the ordinance.
The safeguards for civil rights under the new system would be minimal at best. A four-person panel will review any detention decision, which will consist of two civilians and two military members. But such a panel is only empowered to report to the provincial government and does not appear to have any powers to order the release of any person held by the military.
While the rest of the country appears not to have noticed, legislators from the tribal areas have been alarmed at the introduction of the ‘draconian law’.
A delegation of 10 senators and members of the National Assembly from the tribal areas met with President Asif Ali Zardari last month to voice their concerns over the ordinance.
While the president has the power to promulgate ordinances, they must be approved by parliament within 90 days of promulgation, or else stand void. The president has, in the past, re-promulgated ordinances that were not passed by parliament within the specified time frame.
Published in The Express Tribune, July 29 th , 2011
 
It's guud to have both sides of the story, members can see the facts for themselves. Atleast, next time when a terrorist who have been captured after life of soldiers were sacrificed and tax payers money was wasted is released by a Court, we would know whom to blame.
 
It's guud to have both sides of the story, members can see the facts for themselves. Atleast, next time when a terrorist who have been captured after life of soldiers were sacrificed and tax payers money was wasted is released by a Court, we would know whom to blame.

Well , they surely can see who chickens out of a ' debate ' by declaring it as an answer from ISPR when he's given a comprehensive answer on his baseless claims predicated on some unknown sources and doesn't continue further .
 
No , mate , you aren't getting the whole point . A group of militants can be identified at a location and then be killed any any mean be it artillery or airstrikes or boots on the ground however there is no possible way to identify each one of them as you are asking it to be . Human Intelligence can tell the forces where the terrorists are and what are they planning at times even list key people , but an unnamed recruit remains unnamed . Important militants are named and their details are published , aren't they ? But there are unnamed terrorists with no dossiers available on them , they dont wear uniforms like the military . Other countries have fought such wars in the past , have a look at that . Was it done ? No , because its just not possible !

I quite understand , my friend . Do you not think it would have came down by now if we were trigger happy and didn't care for the people ?

How ? What do you have in mind besides this ' NADRA ' sort of stuff ? :D

The campaign is still ongoing. I hope you are as correct as you think you are. I just fear that not all who are dying are militants. I hope that once everything is said and done, my fears are not realized. For now, I will just keep quiet, having raised my concerns

After all, I can take a hint. This thread disappeared for a while and reappeared suitably "sanitized". That alone speaks volumes just how limited debates can be in this sort of environment, let alone real battle on the ground.

It's guud to have both sides of the story, members can see the facts for themselves. Atleast, next time when a terrorist who have been captured after life of soldiers were sacrificed and tax payers money was wasted is released by a Court, we would know whom to blame.

Yes Sir, it is good to hear both sides of the story, but why did this thread disappear for a while and re-appeared after suitable sanitization?
 
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