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16th December 1971: From East Pakistan to Bangladesh

@Desert Fox check it out....what have we been saying all along?



Good....we are moving along nicely. *pat pat*

Now can you tell me what a budget is? And what realised spending is?

And what matters in the end to the economy?
Bro, this is why I don't even bother arguing with those who run this forum.

These Bdeshis spew venom against Pakistan on this forum on a daily basis and have been allowed to get away with this and when Pakistanis respond in kind we get negative ratings, warnings or even outright banned.

Clearly these pol vaulters enjoy a certain level of favoritism from the Mods, despite this being a Pakistani forum and these people coming here to talk trash about us.

But if that's the case then we can strategize accordingly. No problem. :D

@django @Psychic @CHACHA"G" @war&peace @PakSword
 
This is a myth that only 17 horsemen took over Bengal. Bakhtiyar Khilji attacked with a large forces, but according to legend, he run horse so fast that only 18 horsemen could accompany him. But bulk of his force was just behind him. By that attack, he only took over a small portion of West Bengal in 1203 AD. He could not took all of Bengal. King Lakshman Sen continue to reign from his capital Bikrampur in East Bengal. Entire Bengal came under Muslim rules by 1230 AD on a gradual basis. Long after Bakhtiyar Khilji and Lakshman Sen's death.

Another lie. Nawab's army was 50,000 strong. But bulk of it was under the command of Mir Jafar. British had 1600 European soldiers and 3000 Indian sepoy working for the British. Main army under Mir Jafar defected on the side of British as soon as war started. Conspirators also damaged cannon gun powder of Nawab's army. It was a sham war whose fate was sealed before it's start. Such small British forces could never dared to engage in war against Nawab if they could not managed Mir Jafar and other powerful conspirators.

They were not paralyzed, but were put on hold for strategic reasons. And AF is an exaggeration, a surveillance helicopter sneaked across boundary few hundred meters, when warned, fled to myanmar side rapidly. These incidence happened a number of times during the height of Rohingya crisis. Clearly a crude attempt by burmese to provoke Bangladesh into a clash and divert the attention from atrocities against refugees. Question is, why should we fall in such a crude burmese trap? We are not reactive animal dictated by raw impulse. These same burmese got tough response from Bangladesh army when they tried to infiltrate into disputed sea areas in 2008 and was forced to withdraw.
I am impressed you're at least not satisfied with the events!!!! If there're more BD folks like you who knows one day you might buy some real fighters and man up to the Burmese......
 
Now can you tell me what a budget is? And what realised spending is?
BD's budget over the years is rapidly increasing. It's natural that the spending is gonna be higher than Pakistan if not this year then next or the one after that. But certainly BD's govt spending is not 1/3rd of Pakistan like it used to be in 47-71...

You can see yourself that BD's industrial production is higher than Pakistan. Look at this article too about stock market
https://www.dawn.com/news/1391689
Remember BD has two stock exchanges compared to one of Pakistan.

Pakistanis had a head start...as you can see the income gap was widening before...and like I said before When you guys in India and Pakistan were building fancy projects, our ministers had to lobby to foreign aid to run the country. Our central bank started with $10 reserves in 1972 when Pakista's central bank had more than $6b. Look at the forex of both countries now. Look at the exports of the countries now. Even income gap in PPP is decreasing every year between Bangladesh and Pakistan. Mind you, Pakistan of use GDDS process, tat you talk about. Not every woes are gonna disappear overnight. But all these certainly indicate that BD is racing ahead of Pakistan. Economically and socially. And it certainly indicates that East Pakistan was mismanaged by the military rulers of Pakistan before 71.
 
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BD's budget over the years is rapidly increasing. It's natural that the spending is gonna be higher than Pakistan if not this year then next or the one after that.

Nope. Not from the trendline I am seeing. Anyways you seem to have avoided answering my question...but you are implying you now understand the difference and relevance :P

You can see yourself that BD's industrial production is higher than Pakistan.

Honestly don't care about sub-100 bn market cap + GDDS + high (even for developing world) corruption countries comparing to each other. There is so much treacherous inflation that BBS for example clearly launders into all its numbers, I simply dont care to even give any more attention to it. I will only ever treat what BD (Pakistan too) can project externally (in USD and global 3rd party reference terms) with any real seriousness.

Become something better for a good 10 - 20 years FIRST as recognised by 3rd party credible institutions...and then come back to STRONK TALK.

When you guys in India and Pakistan were building fancy projects, our ministers had to lobby to foreign aid to run the country.

What "fancy" projects? List them.

Our central bank started with $10 reserves in 1972 when Pakista's central bank had more than $6b. Look at the forex of both countries now. Look at the exports of the countries now. Even income gap in PPP is decreasing every year between Bangladesh and Pakistan.

There is no doubt Bangladesh is catching up to Pakistan (due to gross mismanagement in Pakistan)...but Pakistan could well soon have some aces up its sleeves to get back on track fiscally (and then economically)....and has much better ranking on corruption and transparency compared to Bangladesh to make some good hay on it.

Lets see.

And it certainly indicates that East Pakistan was mismanaged by the military rulers of Pakistan before 71.

The mismanagement was not isolated to East Pakistan. Besides thats again focusing on the 5% over the 95% argument I was making in another thread (hope you read that one thoroughly):

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/west...economical-stand.592453/page-11#post-11034154

There was gross mismanagement across the board in South Asia and still there at high level today. BD is not some special victim or special victor (which are extremes BAL + propaganda revel in)....any particular assistance (from everyone else) u needed is/was more than given by the LDC program....so best to quit complaining and look ahead now and focus on actually getting better.....rather than trying to have last word on what is already a bad thing and really poor look (victim complex). Focus on winning stuff now, not on what you feel you have lost.

@Joe Shearer @hellfire @M. Sarmad @I.R.A @Marine Rouge @Atlas
 
@Nilgiri a new 600 cc and and an old 3200 cc (pardon my ignorance of HP) ......... the former is Bangladesh and latter is Pakistan. Is there any comparison?

In all these fictitious KPIs and numbers people (especially in this case Bangladeshis) tend to ignore and forget lot of other factors. Can Bangladesh compare itself with Pakistan that has every thing that Bangladesh has? ....... whereas the opposite ...... Does Bangladesh enjoy everything that Pakistan has? Pakistan's four provinces are representative of "Vast ocean belts, agriculture, resources and tourism" ........ Balochistan is nearly the size of Bangladesh or it may be bigger. Our foes and friends are nearly 7 to 10 times our size ....... who do they have to deal with? Burma.
 
Anyways you seem to have avoided answering my question
Googled it myself. Better to do a dignified retreat than to get destroyed in a head on battle.
Honestly don't care about sub-100 bn market cap + GDDS + high (even for developing world) corruption countries comparing to each other. There is so much treacherous inflation that BBS for example clearly launders into all its numbers, I simply dont care to even give any more attention to it. I will only ever treat what BD (Pakistan too) can project externally (in USD and global 3rd party reference terms) with any real seriousness.
Pakistan also use GDDS standard.
What "fancy" projects? List them.
When did you guys and Pakistanis started building large infrastructure projects? BD started on 5 years ago. Before that Kaptai Dam was one done in BD during Pakistan period.
There is no doubt Bangladesh is catching up to Pakistan
Only means BD wasn't given enough attention.
East Pakistan. Besides thats again focusing on the 5% over the 95% argument I was making in another thread (hope you read that one thoroughly):
I am saying, BD has this problem more than others during 47-71. BD still have this. But not that bad.

Another thing is bad relation of Pakistan and India perhaps harmed BD in that time.
 
Pakistan also use GDDS standard.

Right thats why I don't care to get into GDDS on GDDS comparisons in first place....unless there are some better external 3rd party qualifiers also present.

Its like arguing over the intricacies of placing 4th vs 5th in special olympics in some pre-event heat. Whoopdie doo.

When did you guys and Pakistanis started building large infrastructure projects? BD started on 5 years ago. Before that Kaptai Dam was one done in BD during Pakistan period.

So large infrastructure projects are "fancy"? You have to explain what you mean by "fancy" I suppose.

Talking about just public spending (and ignoring the vastly greater force of private spending that was supressed everywhere as even a basic avenue for development) ....Dams are just one thing...BD had plenty of time and scope to invest into roads and many other basic mid or small sized public projects that give much high return on investment. It didn't do so adequately, it wasnt because of lack of money either....that is largely what politicians want you to believe so you have some scapegoats (that are not them) to blame.

Only means BD wasn't given enough attention.

By whom? Concerning the 5% extraction for public spending by pre-71 country? Why is the 95% retention not deemed to be even part of the argument...that too 17 times more a factor? I'll tell you why, the issue there is a systemic generalised one that doesnt offer easy scapegoating.

I am saying, BD has this problem more than others during 47-71. BD still have this. But not that bad.

So give me a number how much you think it has affected the entirety of Bangladesh today. i.e take snapshot right now and tell me what % you think is attributed to it. Let's see if you are even in the ballpark of reality.

Another thing is bad relation of Pakistan and India perhaps harmed BD in that time.

Can't fight that all different ways. Your people chose to be part of Pakistan (knowing what the foundation of such can impact relations with country you are hewing it from, given nations certainly do not tear easy like piece of paper). In fact a number of you say that the very notion and idea of Pakistan was first given legitimacy in Eastern Bengal....not western punjab/sindh etc. So this argument doesn't really fly...because you chose this destiny....and you have to live with the consequences. It harmed everyone.
 
In one December you lost in the East Pak, and in another December you won in Afghanistan....

Life's like this....

It's not important what you have become, it's important what you'll be....
 
Posting this article as a neutral account of the causes leading up to the March 1971 Liberation War in Bangladesh, a piece by Sydney Schanberg, a Pulitzer prize-winning columnist. Please read carefully and discuss in an un-biased manner, though difficult it might be. We have to understand our historical viewpoints on both sides.

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The Bengalis and the Punjabis: Nation Split by Geography, Hate


By SYDNEY H. SCHANBERG DEC. 4, 1970


December 4, 1970, Page 10

“The British started the racial domination of Punjabi over Bengali,” a Bengali intellectual said with a sneer the other day. “They liked to talk paternally about the simple, straight forward, martial Punjabis, much better fellows than those nasty, scheming Bengalis.”

It is hard to imagine two races or regions any more different. They speak different languages—Urdu in the West, Bengali in the East—eat different foods—meat and grain in the West, fish and rice in the East— and have almost contradictory cultures, for the Bengalis are volatile and love politics and literature while the Punjabis are more stolid and prefer governing and soldiering.

The only thing the two wings have in common is their religion, Islam. That was the basis for the country's creation when it was decided that Hindus and Moslems could not live peacefully together and the subcontinent was carved into largely Hindu India and the two Moslem segments that make up Pakistan.

Glue May Lose Its Hold

The glue of Islam may finally be losing its hold. Many observers deem it a miracle that the two regions have stuck together so long and believe that their separation into independent nations is only a matter of time.

National elections will be held next Monday—the first full elections under adult franchise in Pakistan's history— and East Pakistan is pushing for a form of regional autonomy that many believe is only a prelude to secession.

There has recently been talk that the Government, under pressure from the Punjabi‐run army, is planning to postpone the elections, but fears of popular uprising in East Pakistan have apparently quashed any such intention.

The Bengalis would have regarded postponement as a flimsy pretext for continuing the martial ‐ law regime proclaimed last year, when Gen Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan became President, and with it the domination of the East by the West.

“If the elections are aborted,” warned Sheik Mujibur Rahman, leader of the Awami League, the East's key political party, “The people will owe it to the million who have died in the cyclone to make the supreme sacrifice of another million lives, if need be, so that we can live as a free people. We will no longer suffer the arbitrary rule of the bureaucrats, the capitalists and the feudal interests of West Pakistan.”

Pakistan is that rare country where the majority region is the backward one. Although the East has 75 million people to the West's 55 million, the West has received the over whelming proportion of the development funds, factories, public‐works projects and defense facilities.

Prices are higher in East Pakistan, with rice and wheat twice as costly, although per capita income is at least 50 per cent lower. Six times as much electricity is produced in the West, four times as much foreign aid is spent there, three times as many imports are consumed there, twice as much development money is allocated there and nine times as much is spent on defense.

The disparity is heightened, grimly, by the population pressure in East Pakistan, with 20 million more people than in the West in an area only a sixth as large. If the United States had the same density, it would have 4.5 billion people. Broken down, it is more than 1,300 per square mile on the average and as high as 2,100 in cultivated areas.

Perpetual Disaster Area

The pressure, matched only in some parts of Japan, Taiwan and Communist China, has forced the division of farms into smaller and less profitable plots and has pushed hundreds of thousands of the poorest peasants down into the fertile but dangerous lowlands and offshore islands of the Ganges Delta.

Eighty per cent of East Pakistan is less than 50 feet above sea level; the delta areas, even lower, are more vulnerable to storms and monsoon flooding.

East Pakistan is a perpetual disaster area, even in “normal” times—ravaged by cholera, typhoid and smallpox, by pests and filth, by raging unemployment and monsoon floods.

West Pakistan, benefiting from the so‐called green revolution in improved agricultural yields, is just about self‐sufficient in food while East Pakistan has an annual deficit of some 2.5 million tons. Experts say it could be five million tons by 1975, which could mean famine.

As if internal problems were not enough, East Pakistan has been far more damaged than was the western sector by the partition, which virtually cut it off from neighboring West Bengal, now a state of India. All trade between them has been forbidden since the brief Indian ‐ Pakistani war over Kashmir in 1965.

The coal that used to come from West Bengal now comes from Communist China at as much as 10 times the cost. The only cement factory in East Pakistan, which used to get its limestone from India, must get it from less economical domestic deposits and pay five times the Indian price.


If the East Pakistanis win a measure of regional autonomy, they will immediately press to improve trade with India, one of the moves feared by the army and the hierarchy of the central Government in West Pakistan.

Generals Are Fearful

The Generals know that with greater provincial autonomy, the central Government's powers would be reduced and the vast military spending, some times as much as half of the budget, would be sharply cut. The army also knows that better relations with India would weaken the arguments for perpetuating the Kashmir dispute, which is one of the main reasons for the army's existence and has never aroused the Bengalis as it has the Punjabis, who live next to the disputed territory.


Does the answer to all this woe lie in breaking Pakistan into two nations, as many militant Bengalis and even some Punjabis tired of the crisis now believe? But could East Pakistan, with its overwhelming problems, survive as a separate entity?

The fear of not surviving is what is keeping the dominant Bengali political forces from demanding secession right now.

“If we are the majority, we are Pakistan!” Sheik Mujibur thundered at a meeting with the foreign press last week.

Unfortunately for the Bengalis, the army and its powerful friends in West Pakistan do not quite see it that way.
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I will be posting more insightful articles soon from that era by Mr. Schanberg.

East Pakistan Leader Voices a Secession Threat


By SYDNEY SCHANBERG NOV. 27, 1970


DACCA, Pakistan, Nov. 26— Sheik Mujibur Rahman, East Pakistan's dominant political leader, warned the central government today that if the national elections were postponed, “I go for a total struggle” for secession of East Pakistan.

There have been reports that President Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan might once again postpone the elections for a National Assembly, which are scheduled for Dec. 7 and which would be the first full and free election based on adult franchise in Pakistan's 23‐year history.

The elections were originally scheduled for Oct. 5, but when monsoon floods disrupted much of East Pakistan, the President put them off, President Yahya, who returned this afternoon from a two‐day tour of the coastal area devastated by the cyclone and tidal wave of Nov. 13, would presumably declare a postponement this time on the ground that the damage, caused by the cyclone and tidal wave, in which the official death toll is over 175,000, had produced a national emergency.

This, however, probably would be regarded in East Pakistan as merely an excuse for continuing the present martial law regime, and, with it, West Pakistan domination over East Pakistan. The eastern and western sections of the country are separated by over a thousand miles of Indian territory.

The Bengalis of East Pakistan feel that the central Government, which is run from West Pakistan and is controlled by the Punjabis, did not press relief efforts after the cyclone and therefore proved its callousness and indifference to the plight of the poorer and more populous East.

Sheik Mujibur, charging “our own rulers” with “criminal negligence”, said, “A massive rescue and relief operation, if launched within 24 hours of the disaster, could have saved thousands of lives.”

Speaking at a chaotic news conference attended by many foreign correspondents, the 50 year‐old leader of the Awami league, who had just returned from a tour of the disaster area, said, “Only present experience has brought into sharp focus the basic truth that every Bengali has felt in his bones, that we have been treated so long as a colony and a market that we have been denied our birthrights as the free citizens of an independent state.”
 

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