100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike c

[illusion8]

Can we draw a parallel here with the Brazilian MMRCA? similar to the Indian mmrca - the Brazilian one went on for ages - the two front runners were the F18 and Rafale - but they went for the Grippen instead.

Is there a similar surprise in store for the Indian mmrca as well? @Abingdonboy, @sancho, @SpArK, @Oscar.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Can we draw a parallel here with the Brazilian MMRCA? similar to the Indian mmrca - the Brazilian one went on for ages - the two front runners were the F18 and Rafale - but they went for the Grippen instead.

Is there a similar surprise in store for the Indian mmrca as well? @Abingdonboy, @sancho, @SpArK, @Oscar.

No. Not at all.

 

[SpArK]

Can we draw a parallel here with the Brazilian MMRCA? similar to the Indian mmrca - the Brazilian one went on for ages - the two front runners were the F18 and Rafale - but they went for the Grippen instead.

Is there a similar surprise in store for the Indian mmrca as well? @Abingdonboy, @sancho, @SpArK, @Oscar.

Its highly unlikely.

Either Deal or No Deal.

 

[JohnyD]

neither france nor Indian MOD has confirmed the news...there is no reason to see spike in price except currency valuation...but 100% price rise wud be a deal killer and will cost more to france than India!

 

[faithfulguy]

neither france nor Indian MOD has confirmed the news...there is no reason to see spike in price except currency valuation...but 100% price rise wud be a deal killer and will cost more to france than India!

I think India should still get the plane and forget about TOT. Just buy the stuff so Indian serviceman would not die.

The question is, should India need a plane like this, if so, just buy it soon. the longer India waits because it wants the TOT and all this crap, the longer this project got delayed. And the less valuable this plane is to India. Just like if India induct LCA in the 90s, India can build lots of them. But LCA MKI is half way obsolete so India has to wait for MKII to bring it up to date. The same can be said about Rafale, the longer India waits, the cost\value of the plane decreases.

better to get our hands on some F-35 s via fms route .

I agree, India should start waiting in line for this plane.

 

[Mitro]

if we are already upgrading then we don't have to be alarm and think for long term goal about aquiring 5th generation russian or american and should stop spending money in 4 or 4.5 generation totally new platform.

We are doing all the three anyway i.e. we are upgrading M2Ks better than UAE's, will be upgrading MKI with AESA provided something operational is available from ruskies and will also be buying FGFAs .

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Nobody can give almost New Aircraft carrier with fleet of fighter jets aboard in mere 3.4 billion US dollars . Yes it was delayed by few years ...and marred by cost escalations ...but cost was towards retrofitting of Vikramaditya ..

Regarding Pak-Fa and Rafale deal whatever you are hearing these are mere ' news' and bites ....they are not official proclamations ...
Don't jump like a child out of excitement ...having found something to troll about .
Thank your Russian god-fathers for your second rate aero space industry ...and stay happy with that !

I gave my opinion in the context of this thread regardless if it's official or not, if the new is fake than why not ask the mod to lock this thread. I'm jump of excitement that we're not dependant of foreigner for our military and not because of your Rafale drama...but it's still so irresitible for us to see this...

 

[JohnyD]

I think India should still get the plane and forget about TOT. Just buy the stuff so Indian serviceman would not die.

The question is, should India need a plane like this, if so, just buy it soon. the longer India waits because it wants the TOT and all this crap, the longer this project got delayed. And the less valuable this plane is to India. Just like if India induct LCA in the 90s, India can build lots of them. But LCA MKI is half way obsolete so India has to wait for MKII to bring it up to date. The same can be said about Rafale, the longer India waits, the cost\value of the plane decreases.

no TOT means NO MRCA..without TOT the deal can not meet one of its key and critical objectives i.e. promoting/supporting indigeneous defence industry.

 

[Abingdonboy]

So many idiots with little idea what they are saying come out of the woodwork whenever the MMRCA deal is mentioned/debated. The level of ignorance displayed just astounds me on this matter.

 

[faithfulguy]

no TOT means NO MRCA..without TOT the deal can not meet one of its key and critical objectives i.e. promoting/supporting indigeneous defence industry.

There will be some TOT under the current debate. But this is the contention point. France is not offering full TOT on all none critical components. But India wants more. in the mean time, the price per plane escalated.

India should separate the deal to acquire a plane for its arm forces from the need to gain technology. The arm forces has its need that should not be disregarded just because India's research organization want to piggy back its need on a weapons purchase.

 

[sancho]

$120 million per plane is too high for a country like India even with the threats around.

I think its high time to look for alternatives rather than dragging and wasting- time, patience, energy and money.

The costs quoted in the article are nonsense, the Rafale was never around 60 million DOLLARS flyaway, but around 60 million EUROS and the last French Senat budget report showed a flyaway unit costs of:

€71.2 million EURO for the Rafale B (twin seat) => $97,4 DOLLAR
€66.2 million EURO for the Rafale C (single seat) => $90,5 DOLLAR

Projet de loi de finances pour 2013 : Défense : équipement des forces

and these costs include taxes that wouldn't apply to a sale to India, so the flyaway cost is far lower that what the article claims, not to mention that not the flyaway cost is important, but the system cost for the total procurement and even if we say it would be at $150 millions each x 126 fighters = $18,9 billion DOLLAR and something around $18 billion was always the sensible estimate for the deal, since the initial MRCA competition was aimed at $10 billions, but we then went up to more capable and more expensive fighters too.

And there is no alternative to Rafale / MMRCA, because there is no other option that would give us what this competition gives us! The industrial benefit in techs and returns is only possible with MMRCA, since neither additional LCAs, MKIs or FGFA would create this ToT and offsets.
In operational terms it also has no alternative, LCA is far less capable and even the MK2, which will arrive at least 2 years later than Rafale can't provide the same capability even in higher numbers. In fact you need around 2 x LCAs in strike and at least 2 more on escort configs, to provide the same load and defence capabilities that a single Rafale offers. Even if we take $26 millions a unit, that adds up to over $100 millions fly way too, just that you need longer time to produce 4 fighters, that they will have higher operational costs, that you need 4 pilots... ... ...
So neither industrially, nor operationally, or even financially there would be an alternative that gives us the same in return.

@Abingdonboy @sancho so guys do you think rafale is still worth it?

See my post above.

 

[sancho]

All this after world's most elaborate & expensive selection procedure? We should have bought the Mirage production line long back when it was on offer.

Was it not bought because it could have killed the LCA, apart from the corruption fear? What do you think? @janon @Abingdonboy @sancho

No, it wouldn't had any effect on LCA, since it ranges in the medium class unlike the LCA and it is known that it was IAFs prefered choice to induct more M2Ks, but the arrival of other big industrial players and the possible addition of Rafale gave us the chance to gain more in return, then "just" a new fighter. The M-MRCA is highly aimed on ToT and offsets, to improve the Indian aero industry and increase the involvement of foreign defence giants in India too. So the long term benefits played against the best short term option, the Mirage 2000-5.

Can we draw a parallel here with the Brazilian MMRCA? similar to the Indian mmrca - the Brazilian one went on for ages - the two front runners were the F18 and Rafale - but they went for the Grippen instead.

Is there a similar surprise in store for the Indian mmrca as well?

The parallel was, that they initially aimed on similar industrial and strategic benefits in return as well, which is why the government prefered the French option and that very openly. The result however is caused by the financial situation of Brazil today, just as Switzerland before, they simply can't afford more than the Gripen, even if it even meet certain technical requirements like in the Swiss evaluation. And if Brazil or the Swiss would have the same threat enviroment as we have, they might had chosen differently as well, but both reasons shows why our situation is different. The money is still there, the threat and the need is by far higher and the industrial return also much bigger.

 

[帅的一匹]

There will be some TOT under the current debate. But this is the contention point. France is not offering full TOT on all none critical components. But India wants more. in the mean time, the price per plane escalated.

India should separate the deal to acquire a plane for its arm forces from the need to gain technology. The arm forces has its need that should not be disregarded just because India's research organization want to piggy back its need on a weapons purchase.

Very valid points here, French increase the price because India asks for more TOT.

 

[cirr]

Looks though India is killing two birds with one stone。

Both the Russians and the French are fed up with the Indians who might end up using Tejas for all eventuality.

 

[itaskol]

Come on, just buy the aircraft. And forget to get more TOT with higher price.
If you get the aircraft, you can do reverse engineering on them. You learn more.