Ex-ISI Chief Says Purpose of New Afghan Intelligence Agency RAMA Is ‘to destabilize P

[Xeric]

Hey Xeric what you think what makes Hamid Gul so confident to speak against US and its wrong policies and all the betrayls despite the fact that US and CIA has started a very dangerouse propaganda against Hamid Gul?

You must have read the opening post on thread and it was all about 'men with character and men without character', so a simple answer you question is that he is a man of character. He talks after getting his facts straight and then presents a logical outcome to them, therefore they are hard to be refuted, but yes we can stop some loose mouth who call him a conspiracy theorist.

 

[Developereo]

Guys, please leave religion out of this.

This is an India-Pakistan national interest conflict in Afghanistan. Nothing to do with religion.

 

[Xeric]

When did Hindu become an ideology...its a religion...is that all you manage to think?

You are doltish then i thought.

Dont try to feed me BS, i am very clear in what i have said!

Re-read it 50 times and then let me know.

i said keep the religion out, but the 'ideology' that emanates from the indian/hindu demeanor would stay here to be discussed on this thread!!

At no point i implied that hinduism is a religion, ideology, habitude or an axiom!! Dont try to play fast, i bet you'll lose!

 

[Spitfighter]

You are doltish then i thought.

Dont try to feed me BS, i am very clear in what i have said!

Re-read it 50 times and then let me know.

i said keep the religion out, but the 'ideology' that emanates from the indian/hindu demeanor would stay here to be discussed on this thread!!

At no point i implied that hinduism is a religion, ideology, habitude or an axiom!! Dont try to play fast, i bet you'll lose!

Ok then, tell me more about this 'Hindu/Indian' demeanor.

On one hand you say its wrong to connect all of Islam with terrorism, and we 'kiddos' don't understand. And on the other you are making generalizations about the 'Hindu demeanor'.

Now I really want your take on Hindu ideology. Let's hear it. Let's see if you can back up a single word of your previous.....post.

 

[Xeric]

I don't believe everything Hamid Gul says. Especialy his nonsense that the West is afraid of Taliban's sharia based socio-economic system.

I think he is smoking some of that high grade opium there.

You are right to some extent, everything that he says may not be true, but then he says everything on some base, that's one.

Two, as for the talibanic economic system, i think what he wanted to say was that this 'system' would be an arrangement which would sow the seed for a broader Islamic economic system, which in fact is totally opposite to the current economic system which is based in interest and ribba. Nevertheless, there would have been nothing much in this talibanic eco system, which could have frightened the West. The Afghani (Afghanistan's currency) can no way pose a threat to the West.

Though i second you on the fact that everything that he says may not unfold as he claims to.

 

[bandit]

You are doltish then i thought.

Dont try to feed me BS, i am very clear in what i have said!

Re-read it 50 times and then let me know.

i said keep the religion out, but the 'ideology' that emanates from the indian/hindu demeanor would stay here to be discussed on this thread!!

At no point i implied that hinduism is a religion, ideology, habitude or an axiom!! Dont try to play fast, i bet you'll lose!

What ideology are you trying to subscribe to hinduism here...o learned one, because you are the first guy who I have heard saying so.
Its good Jinnah made you an Islamic state, you guys dont have the heart to respect another religion.

 

[Xeric]

Ok then, tell me more about this 'Hindu/Indian' demeanor.

On one hand you say its wrong to connect all of Islam with terrorism, and we 'kiddos' don't understand. And on the other you are making generalizations about the 'Hindu demeanor'.

Now I really want your take on Hindu ideology. Let's hear it. Let's see if you can back up a single word of your previous.....post.

Oh please, now dont get me started, but let me give you a hint:

The million of Gods that you worship but then when you dont find 'time' to worship them all you 'choose' whom to worship, you have favorite gods, ofcourse no one could give attention to every one of the millions gods, you pick and choose which to worship.

You say wealth is bad but then seek it with madness.

What's with the celibacy 'thingy' (brahmacharya) in hinduism Vs the the verses in your holy books that shows that sex was treated as a form of worship, an act of sacredness.

Hinduism teaches that taking any life is wrong (as your grandma could be a fly, snake, chicken, mosquito), yet some of you promote eating flesh in the name of liberalism.

Oh and yes the Chankya shadow over your religion who attributes prevarication, falsification, fraud, deception, hypocrisy and propaganda to be time-tested devices to ensure total success.

Should i quote Indira Gandhi who after the successful dismemberment of Pakistan in 1971, in her moment of glory, boasted that she is an ardent follower of Chanakya and follows the Arthashastra in letter and spirit. Or should i quote Jawahar Lal Nehru who was known to consider the Arthashastra as his bible and Chanakya his mentor.

Chose whatever fits in, the religion being paradoxical or hypocritical, the choice is yours!

Let's not open the Pandora box and kill the thread, it's already ruined.

 

[Xeric]

you guys dont have the heart to respect another religion.

How many times had i have to 'ask' the other poster not to discuss my 'little' knowledge about hinduisam, now dont accuse me of being disrespectful.

From my side the debate on religion ends!!

 

[Developereo]

What ideology are you trying to subscribe to hinduism here...o learned one, because you are the first guy who I have heard saying so.
Its good Jinnah made you an Islamic state, you guys dont have the heart to respect another religion.

Neither India nor Pakistan have a good record of respecting religious minorities. Both countries are on the US watchlist of countries which mistreat minorities.

 

[Spitfighter]

Oh please, now dont get me started, but let me give you a hint:

The million of Gods that you worship but then when you dont find 'time' to worship them all you 'choose' whom to worship, you have favorite gods, ofcourse no one could give attention to every one of the millions gods, you pick and choose which to worship.

You say wealth is bad but then seek it with madness.

What's with the celibacy 'thingy' (brahmacharya) in hinduism Vs the the verses in your holy books that shows that sex was treated as a form of worship, an act sacredness.

Hinduism teaches that taking any life is wrong (as your grandma could be a fly, snake, chicken, mosquito), yet some of you promote eating flesh in the name of liberalism.

Oh and yes the Chankya shadow over your religion who attributes prevarication, falsification, fraud, deception, hypocrisy and propaganda to be time-tested devices to ensure total success.

Should i quote Indira Gandhi who after the successful dismemberment of Pakistan in 1971, in her moment of glory, boasted that she is an ardent follower of Chanakya and follows the Arthashastra in letter and spirit. Or should i quote Jawahar Lal Nehru who was known to consider the Arthashastra as his bible and Chanakya his mentor.

Chose whatever fits in, the religion being paradoxical or hypocritical, the choice is yours!

Let's not open the Pandora box and kill the thread, it's already ruined.

Ok, what does having 'millions of gods' have to do with 'Hindu ideology' as it relates to the topic. i.e, how exactly does having more than one god relate to the Afghan intelligence agency's actions against Pakistan? (also, they're all the same god AFAIK)

What does seeking wealth have to do with the Afghan intelligence agency? do Muslims not seek wealth? so I take it that all Hindus seek wealth with a fervent 'madness' and you poor, pious Muslims want none of it? Noble indeed. Do tell the Saudis to give us their oil for free.

The celibacy 'thingy' is a choice. Can you tell me exactly where sex is said to be a form of worship, I'm not saying that it couldn't be, but I'd like to see where it says so. Kindly provide a link or two. And what does this have to do with RAAM?

The Quran teaches you that killing innocents is Haram, yet some of you blow $hit up on a daily basis, kill children, behead journalists, hijack planes, shoot up hotels. Now contrast this with evil Hindus promoting the consumption of meat in the name of liberalism. Also tell me how this relates to the Afghan intelligence agency.

Chanakya wasn't a Rishi, or a saint, he was a dude back in the day. What does this have to do with Hinduism? By the same measure, the shadow of Osama, looms large over Islam, should I list all the atrocities committed by Al-Qaeda and attribute them to your entire religion?

The Arthshastra isn't part of Hinduism. But since you quoted Indira Gandhi, should I quote Osama, or the millions of other Muslims in the world that cried 'Allah hu Akbar' when the twin towers fell? And yes, I myself saw a crowd of 50 Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians go bezerk with happiness and chant 'Allah hu Akbar'. I think its safe to say they weren't the only ones.

So does this mean Islam is a hypocritical and violent religion?

And you never answered my question, how does this 'Hindu ideology' relate to the Afghan intelligence agency.

Because the name bears resemblance to a Hindu god, you geniuses have deduced that there is an evil Hindu hand behind the agency.

Is there a Pakistani hand behind the PAK-FA program?

Is this the evil Hindu ideology you were talking about by the way? This is the ideology behind the Afghan intelligence agency's actions/motivations?

There are contradictions and Hindu hypocrites, therefore, it has to be a Hindu ideology behind the Afghan intelligence. I knew it.

From the looks of it, Islam seems to be a lot more hypocritical, maybe because Afghans are Muslim, and there are Muslim hypocrites, and contradictions in Islam, there's an Islamic ideology behind the agency's actions. With your logic, it should make complete sense, right?

Hats off to you. Really.

 

[Xeric]

Ok, what does having 'millions of gods' have to do with 'Hindu ideology' as it relates to the topic. i.e, how exactly does having more than one god relate to the Afghan intelligence agency's actions against Pakistan? (also, they're all the same god AFAIK)

What does seeking wealth have to do with the Afghan intelligence agency? do Muslims not seek wealth? so I take it that all Hindus seek wealth with a fervent 'madness' and you poor, pious Muslims want none of it? Noble indeed. Do tell the Saudis to give us their oil for free.

The celibacy 'thingy' is a choice. Can you tell me exactly where sex is said to be a form of worship, I'm not saying that it couldn't be, but I'd like to see where it says so. Kindly provide a link or two. And what does this have to do with RAAM?

The Quran teaches you that killing innocents is Haram, yet some of you blow $hit up on a daily basis, kill children, behead journalists, hijack planes, shoot up hotels. Now contrast this with evil Hindus promoting the consumption of meat in the name of liberalism. Also tell me how this relates to the Afghan intelligence agency.

Chanakya wasn't a Rishi, or a saint, he was a dude back in the day. What does this have to do with Hinduism? By the same measure, the shadow of Osama, looms large over Islam, should I list all the atrocities committed by Al-Qaeda and attribute them to your entire religion?

The Arthshastra isn't part of Hinduism. But since you quoted Indira Gandhi, should I quote Osama, or the millions of other Muslims in the world that cried 'Allah hu Akbar' when the twin towers fell? And yes, I myself saw a crowd of 50 Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians go bezerk with happiness and chant 'Allah hu Akbar'. I think its safe to say they weren't the only ones.

So does this mean Islam is a hypocritical and violent religion?

And you never answered my question, how does this 'Hindu ideology' relate to the Afghan intelligence agency.

Because the name bears resemblance to a Hindu god, you geniuses have deduced that there is an evil Hindu hand behind the agency.

Is there a Pakistani hand behind the PAK-FA program?

Is this the evil Hindu ideology you were talking about by the way? This is the ideology behind the Afghan intelligence agency's actions/motivations?

There are contradictions and Hindu hypocrites, therefore, it has to be a Hindu ideology behind the Afghan intelligence. I knew it.

From the looks of it, Islam seems to be a lot more hypocritical, maybe because Afghans are Muslim, and there are Muslim hypocrites, and contradictions in Islam, there's an Islamic ideology behind the agency's actions. With your logic, it should make complete sense, right?

Hats off to you. Really.

Without even reading your reply or may just the first line this i have to say:

You are a guud troll and i have doubts about your intellect.

You asked me what i know of hinduism and what i said was in its reply but now you are connecting it (my reply) with the fringing Afghani secret agency and the policies in Afghanistan.


People let's: DFTT!!

 

[Xeric]

Ok now after reading your post, i can refute/reply each of your BS to every single line and reply you with proper links where demanded by you, but as i said i'll not be feeding a troll no more! So chill!

 

[Spitfighter]

Without even reading your reply or may just the first line this i have to say:

You are a guud troll and i have doubts about your intellect.

You asked me what i know of hinduism and what i said was in its reply but now you are connecting it (my reply) with the fringing Afghani secret agency and the policies in Afghanistan.


People let's: DFTT!!

Don't feed the troll, yeah right, I turned your hypocrisy on its head and now you want to run away.

I DID NOT ask you about Hinduism, you're getting confused. I asked you about the Hindu ideology that is motivating the Afghan intelligence agency.

Admit it, you know you were making baseless generalizations, you don't like it when I point out the flaws in your logic do you?

The world is chalk full of hypocrites like you.

Doubting my intellect without even reading my post, yeah, real smart.

 

[bandit]

How many times had i have to 'ask' the other poster not to discuss my 'little' knowledge about hinduisam, now dont accuse me of being disrespectful.

From my side the debate on religion ends!!

Your impish knowledge belies your boastful claims of knowledge, dont try to wriggle out of the statement you made about ideologies, all you are doing is posting crap that makes you feel an authority on hinduism, you my friend are an impostor who at every point exposes his hatred of other religion.
You say you end the discussion, stop acting like a snob.

You have turned this into a religion slugfest...I am not a think tank but at least I have the courtesy of respecting others faith

 

[Xeric]

Your boorish, pedantic rant notwithstanding, the fact remains that the only reason Pakistan had to inject itself into Afghan affairs was to counter Indian meddling. Admittedly, the Pakistan-backed Taliban did introduce a medieval Wahhabi ideology, but the Indian-backed Northern Alliance and warlords are behind 95% of the drug trade. So neither side has its hands clean.

Your puppet-dork Karzai and his band of drug warlords are so corrut and incompetent, even NATO has distanced themselves from his government.

The only reason India gets away with its not-so-clandestine operations in Afghanistan is because it is currently enjoying a honeymoon with the West -- a strategic alliance against perceived Chinese and Islamic threats.

You are right. Just for an addition only if one sees the rate at which the drug trade had gone up since the invasion of Afghanistan as compared to the figure during the Taliban regimes, one is ought to wonder what the coalition been doing since the last 8 years and what claims of victory they have been making.

Also this would give you some more thoughts:

Contents of the article are my personal views based on factual reports and documented data and do not represent any official/institutional policy.

THE GENESIS OF INDO-AFGHAN RELATIONS AND ITS IMPLICATIONS ON PAKISTAN

Pak-Afghan Relations

Emergence of Pakistan
From the outset the relations between the two countries remain cold, Afghanistan opposed the creation of Pakistan and did not recognize its territorial integrity.

The question revision of the Durand Line and the demand of the so called Pakhtoonistan were the main reasons.

Occupation Era
In 1961 Pakistan and Afghanistan came close to war.

In the first week of December 1979, Afghan President Haifzullah Amin, contacted President Zia and offered Afghanistan’s acceptance of Durand Line as the international frontier. However, he was executed by the invading Soviet forces on December 26, 1979 after which the relations between the two countries deteriorated again.

Soviet Occupation
The Soveits invaded Afghanistan in 1979, but anti-government guerilla forces prevented them to take control of Afghanistan. The paramount objective of Pakistan’s policy makers in supporting the Afghan War was to block the revival of Afghanistan nationalism and persuade a friendly government in Kabul.

Post Soviet Era
By 1989 when the Soviet left, in 1992 Burhanuddin Rabbani became the interim President. Rabbani’s govt had the feelings that Pakistan had betrayed a former friendship based on military, financial and logistic support during the Afghan civil war. These sentiments were expressed by Rabbani’s representative to UN, thus to Northern Alliance, Pakistan was left with no credibility to broker peace for Afghansitan.

Taliban Era

Taliban came to power on 27 September 1996. Pakistan as matter of its foreign policy have to secure western borders, thus had to recognize Talibans (the Indian threat). This recognition had many serious implications for Pakistan.

Post Taliban Era
The famous U-turn…no more comments.

Relations with the Present Setup
Karzai sworn as Chairman of Afghan interim administration, whose cabinet was drawn from representatives of Northern Allaince, the Rome Group loyal to former Kind Zahir Shah and Peshawar exile groups (all the people with anti-Pakistan sentiments), so the results were obvious.


Indo-Afghan Relations

Historically Afghanistan have been part and parcel of the Indian psyche:

1. In 1960s, Afghanistan became one of the top recipients of Indian economic aid. India played a critical role in bringing together various factions of theh Afghan left movement in 1970.

2. When Afghanistan became the final battle ground of the Cold War, india tended to tail Soviet policy rather than develop its own independent profile. India’s Afghan policy during the period of the Soveit interventionary war was contradictory. Although New Delhi, vociferously decrided the involvement of external powers in the regions’ security affairs, it maintained a guarded silence over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

3. India’s relations with most Afghan regimes remained cordial except the Taliban rule. However, it would be worth mentioning that unlike Afghan regimes, Indian governments in general did not extend support to the struggle of Afghan people against the Soviet forces.

Relation During Taliban Regime
During the Talibans rule in mid 90s, india was completely marginalized.

The Indian embassy in Kabul was closed down the day Taliban captured the city.

Indian Relations with the Present Setup
India had been playing a backdoor role at the Bonn deliberations, which brought the present government in existence. Thereafter, General Fahim the Afghani Defence Minster the brother of Ahmad Shah Masud also visited Indian. Points to be kept in mind are:

a. The current President Karzai did his postgarduation in political sciences from Shimla in the 80s. With this new set of government, india found in Afghanistan, a Muslim neighbor to counter Pakistan.

b. With four consulates in Jalabad, Kandhar, Heart and Mazar-e-Sharif, besides the embassy in Kabul, india’s diplomatic reach has never been as wide in Afghanistan as it is today. For the first time since partition, india poised to contribute significantly to the political and economic affairs of Afghanistan.

Indian Efforts to Win the Minds of Afghan People

India with the objective of isolation Pakistan is going all out to win the hearts and minds of Afghan people by helping them with the support required for reconstruction and development. Some of the areas of cooperation are:

a. Indian announced a financial assistance of US $ 100 million for Afghanistan

b. Assistance of 1 million ton of wheat.

c. Assistance provided in November 2001:

1. A team of 19 doctors and paramedics deputed at Kabul and Mazar-e-Sharif fo providing medical assistance.

2. Nearly 95 tone of medicines, medical instruments and equipment have been sent.

3. Winter clothing was sent to provide immediate humanitarian relief in December 2001.

4. A consignment of musical instrument was sent to Kabul as requested
by Afghan Radio and Television.

5. A 3 months training program for the Afgahan diplomats commenced at Foreign Institute Delhi.

6. Provided 50 buses for the public transport system. The second lot of 25 Tata buses was handed over in July 2003.

7. A LAN network with internet access via V Sat was established with supply of necessary equipment in the office of Foreign Minister.

8. 12 courses have been indentified ofr training of 250 Afghan police officers and cadets in india, 2 courses have been already completed and 7 are currently running at various police academies in inida (God they all would be so friendly to us)

9. A computer training center has been setup in Kabul for providing training to Afghan officials.

10. Deputation of experts to assist Central Bank of Afghanistan.

11. Approximately 19 ton of vegetable seeds have been supplied to the agriculture ministry.

12. Training of Afghan doctors and paramedics from “Indra Ghandhi Institute of Child Health” at All India Institute of Medical Sciences for 3 months started in 2002.

13. Three airbuses aircrafts gifted to Afghan Airlines (Gosh india is rich)

14. Made in India show was held under the auspices of the Confederation of Indian Industry.
It can be ascertained that india would continue to enhance its influence in Afghanistan in order to exacerbate Pakistan’s internal front and ensure substantial military commitment by Pakistan along with Pak-Afghan border by having best relations with the present Afghan leadership, possessing anti Pakistan sentiments.

Analysis of Indian Design

Strategic and Political Aim

Present Afghan govt is being used by india for the purpose of:

1. On the occasion of reopening ceremony of Indian embassy in Kabul Mr Jaswant Singh said, “I have the distinction of formally reopening the Indian mission in Kabul after a painful gap of long time. India by conviction is a great power, but it is nit flexing its muscles. We are simply telling that rest of the world that india is on the march, and it will not be stopped. It is much better that the rest of the world recognizes this fact.”

2. In the ongoing war in Afghanistan, india was so eager to be a party to GWOT. India wants to kill four birds in one go:

a. Gain its share of loaf in Afghanistan.

b. Fulfill its aim in Kashmir on the plea that ‘it is also against terrorism’

c. ‘Kashmiri terrorism’ means backed by Pakistan so the war against Pakistan should be supported by the world.

d. Anything involving Pakistan to Bin Laden is Muslim terrorism, so anti Muslim hype can be and is being whipped up in india.


Threats Emanating from Indian Designs
Afghanistan
India lost direct access to Afghanistan and became dependent on Pakistan for maintaining contacts including trade relation between the two countries. However, india is pursuing its desire of enhancing its global reach by having friendly relation with Afghanistan and Iran:

1. Excellent political relations with the Afghan leadership and foreseeable prospect for large scale economic cooperation have come to define india’s ‘forward policy’ in Afghanistan.

2. Afghanistan has approved more investment proposals in the last year than in previous 46 years.

3. India is expected to waive all duties on certain types of dry fuites and precious stones from Afghanistan. In return india will get duty free access for tea, medicine and other items.

Hostile Western Border
indian diplomatic corps is reportedly busy cultivating relations with importnat militray commanders operating close to Pakistani boders, moreover, india is busy in making all her efforts to create a gulf of misunderstanding between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Following will give more details.

Durand Line
Controversy concerning in Pak-Afghan border, the sources asserted that it was just a canard motived by vested interests demanding demarcation of international border.

Pakhtoonistan
It is one of the prime intrests of idia to keep the issue of so called Pakhtoonistan alive. indian has always been very supportive, and after 1965 war announced its open support to the so called 'Pakhtoonistan movement'

Law and Order
indian connections with former Afghan President Rabbani primarily dirceted towards creating problems for Pakistan.

Economic Threat
india is trying to bypass Pakistan by developing relations with the required infrastructure through Iran's Chahbahar port to have access to landlocked CARs and European countries.

india is basically desirous to divert the attention of international market and especially CARs away from Pakistan.

Tashkent's focus had shifted from Karachi to Mumbai for access to a global market.

Maligning Pakistan's Image
india has launched a strong media campaign, as evident from some of the following:
-' We are amused, disappointed but not surprised by refusal of Pakistan to cooperate with us to eradicate scourge of terrorism.

-'Together with Afghanistan, Pakistan became the epicenter of international terrorism. So long as this activity was promoted Pakistan's strategic interests were directed against india and it was ignored by the West'

-'While deep concerns are mounting about the nexus between fundamentalism, terrorism anmd weapons of mass destruction, the spot light is not on Pakistan, which has all the three ingredients of concern, plus the additional one of fears of it becoming a 'Failed State'.

We have seen how there is a remarkable lack of curiosity about Pakistan's nuclear connections with North Korea in exchange for missile technology, which poses grave challenges to indian security.

-'Pakistan is also deeply enmeshed in a narcotics problem that is complex, multifaceted and growing. Pakistan is a major producer of opium'.