Zulfiquar Class Frigate vs Ada Class Corvette

[Blue Marlin]

Dear you are comparing a frigate to a corvette. Although in relatively same weight category (still a difference of around 500 tons) there are other significant differences as well like range, weapons load, radar and sensors etc.
For me, as mentioned in other thread as well, the ADA class offer no real advantage over the F22p or the what we can get in modified F22p. The only justification i can think if if PN actually do goes for these boats is that the interest is NOT limited to the corvettes and the we will actually be joining the project which also covers the TF-100 frigates. (then again, i look at Type 54A frigates and feel lost)

@Penguin
Can you think of some main advantages? reasons PN can be considered better off option for ada class rather then going for the Chinese options?

Dear you are comparing a frigate to a corvette. Although in relatively same weight category (still a difference of around 500 tons) there are other significant differences as well like range, weapons load, radar and sensors etc.
For me, as mentioned in other thread as well, the ADA class offer no real advantage over the F22p or the what we can get in modified F22p. The only justification i can think if if PN actually do goes for these boats is that the interest is NOT limited to the corvettes and the we will actually be joining the project which also covers the TF-100 frigates. (then again, i look at Type 54A frigates and feel lost)

@Penguin
Can you think of some main advantages? reasons PN can be considered better off option for ada class rather then going for the Chinese options?

the f22p is a light friagte whilst the milgem is a litoral combat shipo [lcs] the lcs is meant to stay with in its own shores. its intended as a quick deployment and combat smaller ships. [the usa would use this to counter iranian speed boats like before] so i would imagine it would be deployed close to indian shores and the straight of hormuz [basically its a fancy patrol ship. the tf-100 that would bring a vls and nothing more and as penguin said thailand has a ship similar to the f22p which has recently installed an 8 cell km41 vls. so can a 8 or 16 cell vls replace the fm-90?on the f22p? personally i think the milgem is a bad idea. the f22p is prefered and they can focus on larger ships from china. such as the type 54a, but the tf-100 is cheaper and has a 32 cell vls which is the same they type 54a. so its more of a case of what is better value ship they type 54a or the tf-100?

note the milgem and the tf-100 are differant [same ship but longer to hold a vls]

 

[Tipu7]

Sir
When you need more Vessels while keeping the size of Navy constant what will you do?
You will induct vessels which uses more computer systems and hence require less crew to operate it.
Further more, By induction of Large Turkish vessels we have now approach to on board Turkish equipment related to navy. Particular the one developed by Aselsan .......
It will offer us diversity of choice.
Also I do believe that operational cost of Corvette is lower compared to Frigate. And right now we need more ships for patrolling and accompanying ships for gwadar port......

Dear you are comparing a frigate to a corvette. Although in relatively same weight category (still a difference of around 500 tons) there are other significant differences as well like range, weapons load, radar and sensors etc.
For me, as mentioned in other thread as well, the ADA class offer no real advantage over the F22p or the what we can get in modified F22p. The only justification i can think if if PN actually do goes for these boats is that the interest is NOT limited to the corvettes and the we will actually be joining the project which also covers the TF-100 frigates. (then again, i look at Type 54A frigates and feel lost)

 

[Blue Marlin]

Sir
When you need more Vessels while keeping the size of Navy constant what will you do?
You will induct vessels which uses more computer systems and hence require less crew to operate it.
Further more, By induction of Large Turkish vessels we have now approach to on board Turkish equipment related to navy. Particular the one developed by Aselsan .......
It will offer us diversity of choice.
Also I do believe that operational cost of Corvette is lower compared to Frigate. And right now we need more ships for patrolling and accompanying ships for gwadar port......

operational cost down... yes lok at how many people it take to run the f22p and how many it takes to run the milgem as for tech who knows how it would fare against chinese kit. its very easy to say it wont be as good but they have developed many times faster than turkey. so what we need is some one who has seen both chinese and turkish kit. which is not gonna happen i would say the tf-100 is the prefered option.

 

[Arsalan]

Sir
When you need more Vessels while keeping the size of Navy constant what will you do?
You will induct vessels which uses more computer systems and hence require less crew to operate it.
Further more, By induction of Large Turkish vessels we have now approach to on board Turkish equipment related to navy. Particular the one developed by Aselsan .......
It will offer us diversity of choice.
Also I do believe that operational cost of Corvette is lower compared to Frigate. And right now we need more ships for patrolling and accompanying ships for gwadar port......

Sir the questions is, why would a country like PAKISTAN want to induct more vessels while keeping the personal strength same? There is no real need for that for us.
(When you said "increase vessels while keeping the size of navy same" (and not mentioned personal) I for a moment though that it is some sort of brain teaser )

 

[Taygibay]

Sir the questions is, why would a country like PAKISTAN want to induct more vessels while keeping the personal strength same? There is no real need for that for us.

Extended reach. Same personnel with more ships assuming same speed
means that the far out ships can have relieving units in and out going.

That only one example of tactical changes allowed by superior tech.
There are other advantages but you don't get all of them at once.

Good day to you and Tipu, later, Tay.

 

[Penguin]

Dear you are comparing a frigate to a corvette. Although in relatively same weight category (still a difference of around 500 tons) there are other significant differences as well like range, weapons load, radar and sensors etc.
For me, as mentioned in other thread as well, the ADA class offer no real advantage over the F22p or the what we can get in modified F22p. The only justification i can think if if PN actually do goes for these boats is that the interest is NOT limited to the corvettes and the we will actually be joining the project which also covers the TF-100 frigates. (then again, i look at Type 54A frigates and feel lost)

@Penguin
Can you think of some main advantages? reasons PN can be considered better off option for ada class rather then going for the Chinese options?

On the 'relatively minor' difference in displacement, please note:

• Standard displacement 2,000 v 2,500 tons (dif is 500 tons = 1/4 the Milgem displacement and 1/5 that of F22P)
  
• Full 2,300 or 2,400 versus 3,144 tons (dif is 750-850 tons = 1/3 the Milgem displacement and 1/4 that of F22P)
• For a 8,000 ton fld ship those proportions would translate to a 2,000 tons difference i.e. the difference between a Type 45 Daring class and a Nansen class frigate

F22P gives greater range at higher cruise speed, but its CODAD propulsion is probably louder than the CODAG propulsion of the Milgem 1 / Ada, which is slightly faster, and it could give the latter advantages in ASW (better able to sprint-and-drift, with lower noise) for a given, common sonar.

If F22P came with a 24 round FL3000N/HQ10, which is comparable to current RAM/RIM-116, then the F22P would have an AAW self-defense advantage because is also has not only a 76mm dual purpose main gun but also 2x 30mm gatlings. While using HQ7, F22P has a little range advantage over RAM/Rim-116 but fewer ready missiles, which is partially compensated by the presence of those gatlings. This will change when Rim-116 Block 2 is introduced, as this doubles the effective range of RAM from 9 to 18km.

IMHO, the main differences besides price, would be build quality, signature reduction (rf, elop, thermal, noise), survivability in the face of damage (fire, flooding), level of automation (crew size > operating cost; automation >? reliability and maintenance cost)

 

[Arsalan]

Extended reach. Same personnel with more ships assuming same speed
means that the far out ships can have relieving units in and out going.

That only one example of tactical changes allowed by superior tech.
There are other advantages but you don't get all of them at once.

Good day to you and Tipu, later, Tay.

Oh sure there are advantages, that is why i WHY would a country like Pakistan opt for such system. The thinking behinde this argument is that we are not a rich country. The increased automation means increased prices, more sophisticated systems that are expensive to procure and maintain. In the other hand, the pay is not too high so a couple of extra hands on deck wont be that much problematic. Not saying that we should not go for sophisticated hardware, just saying that we should not got for it ONLY to decrease the crew on board. There are much more important aspects that need to be addressed first, the AAW for our ships being THE TOP most priority and i do not see these ADA class offering anything that the F22p or possible future procurement could not have. My mind keeps getting back to the Type 54A.That would have checked a lot of boxes for us.

On the 'relatively minor' difference in displacement, please note:

• Standard displacement 2,000 v 2,500 tons (dif is 500 tons = 1/4 the Milgem displacement and 1/5 that of F22P)
  
• Full 2,300 or 2,400 versus 3,144 tons (dif is 750-850 tons = 1/3 the Milgem displacement and 1/4 that of F22P)
• For a 8,000 ton fld ship those proportions would translate to a 2,000 tons difference i.e. the difference between a Type 45 Daring class and a Nansen class frigate

F22P gives greater range at higher cruise speed, but its CODAD propulsion is probably louder than the CODAG propulsion of the Milgem 1 / Ada, which is slightly faster, and it could give the latter advantages in ASW (better able to sprint-and-drift, with lower noise) for a given, common sonar.

If F22P came with a 24 round FL3000N/HQ10, which is comparable to current RAM/RIM-116, then the F22P would have an AAW self-defense advantage because is also has not only a 76mm dual purpose main gun but also 2x 30mm gatlings. While using HQ7, F22P has a little range advantage over RAM/Rim-116 but fewer ready missiles, which is partially compensated by the presence of those gatlings. This will change when Rim-116 Block 2 is introduced, as this doubles the effective range of RAM from 9 to 18km.

IMHO, the main differences besides price, would be build quality, signature reduction (rf, elop, thermal, noise), survivability in the face of damage (fire, flooding), level of automation (crew size > operating cost; automation >? reliability and maintenance cost)

Yeah that is why i mentioned (still 500 tons), this is significant and you have explained that well.

Agree with the advantages of one over other and will like to add the origin of these weapons systems on Ada as a disadvantage for PN.

As for the survive-ability, there had been some issues. The making was not that good and there were some quality concerns but as per my discussion with an offices currently serving on a submariner, these were addressed in the last boat so it would be safe to assume that next boats would be even better.

reduced radar signature and noise reduction may perhaps be the only little advantages of ada apart from the discussed interest in TF-100 that might be the reason (Still i do not see TF100, when ready, much better the Type 54A )

 

[Penguin]

operational cost down... yes lok at how many people it take to run the f22p and how many it takes to run the milgem as for tech who knows how it would fare against chinese kit. its very easy to say it wont be as good but they have developed many times faster than turkey. so what we need is some one who has seen both chinese and turkish kit. which is not gonna happen i would say the tf-100 is the prefered option.

A highly automated ship, with smaller crew, may cost less to operate on a day to day basis. However, if you then need to hire contractors and/or train personnel to maintain the automation, that adds to maintenance costs. You'ld have to model some scenarios for that.

Agree with the advantages of one over other and will like to add the origin of these weapons systems on Ada as a disadvantage for PN.

Well, in principle, it shouldn't be too hard to swap out RAM and FL3000N and 76mm Oto with 76mm H/PJ-26. Question is whether Turkey would be willing to accommodate such wishes.

As for the survive-ability, there had been some issues. The making was not that good and there were some quality concerns but as per my discussion with an offices currently serving on a submariner, these were addressed in the last boat so it would be safe to assume that next boats would be even better.

Issue? What issue, with what vessel(s)? What ship or boat are you talking about. F22P?

 

[Tipu7]

(When you said "increase vessels while keeping the size of navy same" (and not mentioned personal) I for a moment though that it is some sort of brain teaser )

Happens

Sir the questions is, why would a country like PAKISTAN want to induct more vessels while keeping the personal strength same? There is no real need for that for us.

Sir why there is no need for more surface vessels?
We are developing Naval port in Gwadar so for protection of Trade vessels it is necessary to induct more vessels, plus IN presence in region will increase too once Chabhar will become operational........

 

[Arsalan]

Well, in principle, it shouldn't be too hard to swap out RAM and FL3000N and 76mm Oto with 76mm H/PJ-26. Question is whether Turkey would be willing to accommodate such wishes.

For me, the question is that if we have to fit the Chinese weaponry at the end of the day, why go for this in the first place. It would have been better if we sticked to F22p or the variants and then moved on to Type 54 (just like a possibility here in MILGEM project)

Issue? What issue, with what vessel(s)? What ship or boat are you talking about. F22P?

Low standard of manufacturing (not electronics or weapons but the general ship)
Inadequately build to fight a crisis situation such a fire on board or flooding of a few compartments. In the initial boats there were complains heard about how the "quality" or the craftsmanship is not up to the mark. My bad that i was not able to point out particular incident and talk to him about that but this was mentioned in the discussion. What was good to hear was that he confirmed that these things have been addressed in the last boat already.

Happens

Sir why there is no need for more surface vessels?
We are developing Naval port in Gwadar so for protection of Trade vessels it is necessary to induct more vessels, plus IN presence in region will increase too once Chabhar will become operational........

Brother i am not saying there is no need of new vessels. My question was:

why would a country like PAKISTAN want to induct more vessels while keeping the personal strength same? There is no real need for that for us.

Here, this may help you understand what i meant to say:

https://defence.pk/threads/zulfiquar-class-frigate-vs-ada-class-corvette.433812/page-3#post-8362413

Oh sure there are advantages, that is why i WHY would a country like Pakistan opt for such system. The thinking behinde this argument is that we are not a rich country. The increased automation means increased prices, more sophisticated systems that are expensive to procure and maintain. In the other hand, the pay is not too high so a couple of extra hands on deck wont be that much problematic. Not saying that we should not go for sophisticated hardware, just saying that we should not got for it ONLY to decrease the crew on board. There are much more important aspects that need to be addressed first, the AAW for our ships being THE TOP most priority and i do not see these ADA class offering anything that the F22p or possible future procurement could not have. My mind keeps getting back to the Type 54A.That would have checked a lot of boxes for us.

 

[Blue Marlin]

A highly automated ship, with smaller crew, may cost less to operate on a day to day basis. However, if you then need to hire contractors and/or train personnel to maintain the automation, that adds to maintenance costs. You'ld have to model some scenarios for that.

well at first it will be expensive but in the long run costs will go down. its like inducting anyother piece of equipment in any other services weather its a new submarine or a fighter jet or battle tank.

 

[Penguin]

Low standard of manufacturing (not electronics or weapons but the general ship)
Inadequately build to fight a crisis situation such a fire on board or flooding of a few compartments. In the initial boats there were complains heard about how the "quality" or the craftsmanship is not up to the mark. My bad that i was not able to point out particular incident and talk to him about that but this was mentioned in the discussion. What was good to hear was that he confirmed that these things have been addressed in the last boat already.

This sounds suspiciously like the Thai complaints about their four Jianghu's. It the last of the four F22Ps any better (since built in Pakistan)? I'm assuming your were referring to F22P, right?

well at first it will be expensive but in the long run costs will go down. its like inducting anyother piece of equipment in any other services weather its a new submarine or a fighter jet or battle tank.

Yeah, but personnel cost in e.g. UK are not the same as those in e.g. Pakistan. So, 'the long run' is different.

 

[alimobin memon]

is it confirmed its ada class corvette ? what if its tf100 with that south african missile ?

 

[tarrar]

Good but PN should buy bigger ships such as Type 52, which will offer more fire power to our Navy.

 

[Quwa]

is it confirmed its ada class corvette ? what if its tf100 with that south african missile ?

There's no TF-100 anymore. There's MILGEM Batch-II, a stretched version (by 10 metres) that can carry 16 (?) VLS cells for ESSM (a medium-range SAM). It could very well be the Batch-II the PN is ordering, but no one knows, we'll have to wait for more details.