Zulfiquar Class Frigate vs Ada Class Corvette

[Penguin]

PN might not want to use Chinese weapon systems on it due to integration issue, although it is possible but PN would prefer western system SAM/CIWS specially with LOAL capability (if possible).

Why bother shoehorning a modified A-Darter into one the aforementioned launchers when you can get Umkhonto-IR?

 

[Basel]

Ada seems better......both are around the same size but Ada has less crew 93 vs 170, meaning it's more automatized compared to Zulfiquar




Ada doesn't have a CIWS but it really doesn't need one when it has RIM-121


and with TF-100 sublass it will get a Mk-41 along with ESSM, that's huge compared to Zulfiquar

We are talking about possible PN ADA class ships not Tuskish Navy ships that is why ESSM and other US systems are not possible for those, Pakistan will need systems which can replace US ones with similar or better capabilities.

Why bother shoehorning a modified A-Darter into one the aforementioned launchers when you can get Umkhonto-IR?

Is it better in performance compared to similar available systems to PN? if not then why not SAM based on A-Darter which has high off bore capability with good maneuverability and speed.

 

[Penguin]

Ada doesn't have a CIWS but it really doesn't need one when it has RIM-121

RAM is the CIWS, just like it is on e.g. German F-122 and F-123 frigates. It is just that it is not gun-based but rather missile based.

RIM-121 does not exist.

Dutch original Kortenaer class

Version for German navy: F-122

F-123

F-124 AAW frigate

F-125

K-130

and with TF-100 sublass it will get a Mk-41 along with ESSM, that's huge compared to Zulfiquar

And when you stick a Mk41 on a F22P, which you could, in place of the HQ7/FGM-90N, there is no difference.

 

[C130]

We are talking about possible PN ADA class ships not Tuskish Navy ships that is why ESSM and other US systems are not possible for those, Pakistan will need systems which can replace US ones with similar or better capabilities.



Is it better in performance compared to similar available systems to PN? if not then why not SAM based on A-Darter which has high off bore capability with good maneuverability and speed.

I was only commenting on which is better.


if Pakistan needs a new boat you should stick with your brother China.

RAM is the CIWS, just like it is on e.g. German F-122 and F-123 frigates. It is just that it is not gun-based but rather missile based.

RIM-121 does not exist.

And when you stick a Mk41 on a F22P, which you could, in place of the HQ7/FGM-90N, there is no difference.

I meant RIM-116, but I meant gun based CIWS.

RIM-116 does it all, but it's not a dedicate A2A weapon. only good at shooting down low flying planes and helicopters at best.

 

[cabatli_53]

soi guess the cafrad will be like the sampson radar but what will turkey have that will be on par with the s1850m radar or smart-l radar?

-One of the biggest radar and module manufacturing/test center of Europe
-Having own Gallium Nitrite semi-conductor based transistors
-Exporting own T/R modules to Europe for Smart-S radar costumers

S1850M or Smart-L radar equivalent

 

[Penguin]

We are talking about possible PN ADA class ships not Tuskish Navy ships that is why ESSM and other US systems are not possible for those, Pakistan will need systems which can replace US ones with similar or better capabilities.



Is it better in performance compared to similar available systems to PN? if not then why not SAM based on A-Darter which has high off bore capability with good maneuverability and speed.

Umkhonto uses a two-colour IR-seeker (variant of U-Darter AAM's seeker) and has a set of tail-mounted, aerodynamic control fins, as well as thrust vectoring vanes in the motor nozzle (similar to Denel's A-Darter AAM). Block 2, developed for FInland, has a more advanced seeker-head algorithm for differentiating between the target and background clutter often found in and around the Baltic archipelago. Because of the improvement in the seeker head, the newer version has a more efficient flight path, allowing for an increase in range of 3 km (1.9 mi); a new maximum range of 15 km (9.3 mi). An extended range version of the Block 2 variant of the Umkhonto-IR was test fired in October 2013. The successful ground-based firing tests proved that the range of the Umkhonto can be extended to 20 km while the physical dimensions of the missile remain unchanged. Denel Dynamics is currently developing an extended range Umkhonto-IR variant with a range exceeding 20 km (12 mi) with a larger motor that extends the range to over 30 km.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

There are lot of countries that make ships C130 USA is just one seller nothing more

 

[RAMPAGE]

Umkhonto uses a two-colour IR-seeker (variant of U-Darter AAM's seeker) and has a set of tail-mounted, aerodynamic control fins, as well as thrust vectoring vanes in the motor nozzle (similar to Denel's A-Darter AAM). Block 2, developed for FInland, has a more advanced seeker-head algorithm for differentiating between the target and background clutter often found in and around the Baltic archipelago. Because of the improvement in the seeker head, the newer version has a more efficient flight path, allowing for an increase in range of 3 km (1.9 mi); a new maximum range of 15 km (9.3 mi). An extended range version of the Block 2 variant of the Umkhonto-IR was test fired in October 2013. The successful ground-based firing tests proved that the range of the Umkhonto can be extended to 20 km while the physical dimensions of the missile remain unchanged. Denel Dynamics is currently developing an extended range Umkhonto-IR variant with a range exceeding 20 km (12 mi) with a larger motor that extends the range to over 30 km.

Large motor as in a second stage/booster? Is there any picture of this missile?

@cabatli_53

Which radar from the CAFRAD mast is to be coupled with the SAMs? Can you post its specifications? How does it compare to Sa'ar Class's AESA (EL/M-2248 MF-STAR)?

 

[ANMDT]

soi guess the cafrad will be like the sampson radar but what will turkey have that will be on par with the s1850m radar or smart-l radar?

Have no idea about that, last year i was away from electronics field so i cant recall. @cabatli_53 can tell about it much better than me.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Ok, From what I understand, There are 3 types of radar systems in CAFRAD mast and each radar has 4 elements.

1. CAFRAD Multi Function Radar System. This one is probably comparable to Israel's EL/M-2248 MF-STAR. I'm taking this Israeli radar as a benchmark because it has the same role and is operated by the IN. @cabatli_53 Please do the comparison if possible.

2. CAFRAD Illumination Radar System. Please specify its utility.

3. CAFRAD Long Range Radar System. Probably for Turkish ABM system T-LORAMIDS or its alternative. Please confirm.

@isoo

 

[Penguin]

RIM-116 does it all, but it's not a dedicate A2A weapon. only good at shooting down low flying planes and helicopters at best.

I guess all of the following are wrong then.

"The RAM program is designed to provide surface ships with an effective, low-cost, lightweight, self-defense system which will provide an improved capability to engage and defeat incoming antiship cruise missiles (ASCMs). RAM is a joint United States and German venture to design an effective, low cost, lightweight quick-reaction, self-defense system which will increase the survivability of otherwise undefended ships."
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/ram.htm

"RAM is a supersonic, lightweight, quick-reaction, fire-and-forget weapon designed to destroy anti-ship missiles."
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ram/

"The RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) is a lightweight, quick-reaction, fire-and-forget missile designed to destroy anti-ship cruise missiles and asymmetric air and surface threats."
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=800&ct=2

"The RIM-116 RAM is a joint U.S./German lightweight ship-borne self-defense system for use against anti-ship cruise missiles."
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-116.html

"The RAM program is designed to provide surface ships with an effective, low-cost, lightweight, self-defense system which will provide an improved capability to engage and defeat incoming antiship cruise missiles (ASCMs). RAM - a joint US and German project - is an autonomous fire-and-forget inner-layer air defense missile system which will increase the survivability of otherwise undefended ships."
http://www.navysite.de/launcher/ram.htm

And how about this:

"Block 0 missiles were designed to initially home in on radiation emitted from a target (such as the active radar of an incoming anti-ship missile), switching to an infrared seeker derived from that of the FIM-92 Stinger missile for terminal guidance. In test firings, the Block 0 missiles achieved hit rates of over 95%."
http://www.do-apps.com/41_en/e_25063.html

"The Block 1 upgrade program was successfully completed in August 1999 with a series of operational tests to demonstrate the system's introduction maturity. In 10 scenarios, real Anti-Ship Missiles and supersonic Vandal target missiles (Mach 2.5) were intercepted and destroyed under realistic conditions. RAM Block 1 achieved first-shot kills on every target in its presented scenarios, including sea-skimming, diving and highly maneuvering profiles in both single and stream attacks."
http://www.navysite.de/launcher/ram.htm

"Friday, 24 May 2013: The US Navy successfully completed tests of the Rolling Airframe Block 2 missile at the Navy's Pacific Missile Test Range, May 10. The missiles were launched from a Self Defense Test Ship operated by the Naval Surface Warfare Center Port Hueneme and intercepted turbojet-powered targets emulating enemy anti-ship cruise missiles.
Testing continued with another successful firing, using two RAM Block 2 missiles, meeting all test objectives May 12. Scheduled over the next several months, these were the first of a series of planned tests to demonstrate RAM Block 2 performance against anti-ship cruise missile threats at sea. The Block 2 missile will now have flight tests from an operational ship.
"With an Evolved Radio Frequency receiver and improved kinematics, RAM Block 2 was designed to engage these types of LPI [Low-Probability Intercept] and maneuvering threats." said Capt. John Keegan, RAM major program manager. "Our success over the last several days is the first step in proving Block 2's operational effectiveness and suitability for fleet use.""
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...rim-116-block-2-rolling-airframe-missile.html

Large motor as in a second stage/booster? Is there any picture of this missile?

@cabatli_53

Which radar from the CAFRAD mast is to be coupled with the SAMs? Can you post its specifications? How does it compare to Sa'ar Class's AESA (EL/M-2248 MF-STAR)?

LARGER MOTOR > FATTER
See eg Aspide 2000

Early Aspide

Latest Aspide 2000 (with new 'fat' rocket motor)

 

[Penguin]

There are lot of countries that make ships C130 USA is just one seller nothing more

Actually, US isn't all that big an exporter of the kind of ships most navies need ;-)

 

[Tank131]

Thats because the US no longer makes frigates after the stoppage of OHPs...and most navies dont need large 9000 Ton destroyers...let alone cant afford them.

Again, I will voice there is no longer a TF-100 in the works...i.e. no Istanbul class frigate. There will be a stretched MILGEM Block 2 which will be 10 meters longer and is said to have 16 cell VLS (not sure where the idea about an additional 16 cells came from...but it may be possible). IF PN is going for Ada-class corvettes, they better be going for this. The addition of 4 ships (granted that they require only half the personnel) doesnt make sense when looking at what PN needs. It desperately needs a better answer to aerial defense. It needs more survival ships that will be able to repel saturation attacks on themselves if not other ships. One would only likely need to fire 2-3 missiles at the F-22P to secure a his whereas something like MILGEM (given its ram launcher) may be able to take 4. PN needs to do better given the fact that it will be up against a far superior force.

I would suggest PN work with both China and Turkey to custom design a boat that suits its needs. That could be based on C28A or High Performance frigate. It would need to avoid US reliance on weaponry. Utilizing Turkish automation/systems to reduce the number of servicemen required to operate it, ideally PN needs something that can hold 8 AShM (Preferrable Atmaca (250km range) or c802a (180km) with 32Cell VLS for a 40km range minimum missile (preferably quad packed like CAMM or Umkhonto-R if that is quad packable). This should be backed by FL-3000N CIWS (24 short range 9km missiles) and 1-2 Gun based CIWS. This could likely be done in a 3500-3700T ship like HPF and would give PN 128 medium range missiles if quad packed or 32 if not, 24 short range missiles. Much more survivable than anything in PN.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Why are we comparing Corvettes with Frigates? There roles are entirely different...

Why does PN require ADA Class Corvettes?
If PN procures these 4 Corvettes then it would use them as coastal defence along with various other coastal defence platforms. These are to deter from a naval blockade of Pakistani cities like Karachi and Gwadar by the Indian Navy and also track and hunt Indian submarines to attack the docks.

What effect would be on Frigate requirements of PN?
PN currently requires to replace older frigates hence that requirement remains for which 4 more F-22P would be procured.
PN might also look to expand its Frigates so that they can effectively protect the EEZ. For this PN may consider more F-22P's or could get some TF-100 in the same time as these Corvettes are being delivered.

As far as the capabilities of air defence are concerned in regards to both the ADA Class corvettes and F-22P both require an upgrade.

As far as the coverage of CEFRAD as mention by @cabatli_53 in post 51 is correct then 4 ADA Class Corvettes would technically cover the entire area of Arabian Sea though PN would require 6 to include the EEZ at all times.

 

[cabatli_53]

TCG 513 Burgazada is almost ready for launching !

Ok, From what I understand, There are 3 types of radar systems in CAFRAD mast and each radar has 4 elements.

1. CAFRAD Multi Function Radar System. This one is probably comparable to Israel's EL/M-2248 MF-STAR. I'm taking this Israeli radar as a benchmark because it has the same role and is operated by the IN. @cabatli_53 Please do the comparison if possible.

2. CAFRAD Illumination Radar System. Please specify its utility.

3. CAFRAD Long Range Radar System. Probably for Turkish ABM system T-LORAMIDS or its alternative. Please confirm.

@isoo

The CAFRAD includes 3 radar systems working together to achieve the following missions:

Multi Function Active Phased Array Radar:
- Volume and horizon search,
- Air and surface targets detection, tracking and classification,
- Small, low altitude and high velocity air targets detection and tracking
- Fire control quality target tracking.

Long range Active Phased Array Radar:
- Long Range volume search,
- Air and surface targets detection and tracking.

Active Phased Array Illuminator:
- Semi Active Missile Guidance

Based on Long range CAFRAD radar, Aselsan develops EIRS long range early warning radar system which is able to detect ballistic missiles. It can be used as the main sensor of long altitude SAM project as well.