Featured Zaheer Ahmad Babar appointed new Chief of Pakistan Air Force

[Raider 21]

Sorry for the long post - but you may hopefully from this get my point. Persons stating that Zaheer Ahmad Babar is not at good choice just because he does not have x flying hours or did not flew a particular fighter plane are looking at one element that per se do not tell whether he is / will be the best choice - this my friends only time will tell.

All of PAF, current and retired are more than happy with his appointment as an air chief. Enthusiasts were hopeful for one who had more spotlight in the media.

 

[Air Wolf]

Alot of information flowing around. Alot of new revelations. What happened on 26th, almost everybody (civilians) used to think that we couldn't do anything due to our limitations. Now we have another angle as to why it happened.
Then another side to the story is if our PM and COAS couldn't muster enough courage. Maybe we will never know the exact details. But one thing which is clearly visible is that Bajwa is past his expiry date. It's not rocket science that with age your ability to take big bold decisions reduce. Biggest blunder by IK to give extension only to save his skin.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[User]

View attachment 725720

Thank you for your service, Sir!

 

[PanzerKiel]

Somebody is feeding you information to clean up Imran Khan's image. You should realize you are being used as a tool for someone else's agenda. You are duty bound to reveal information you have been asked to reveal so I don't blame you.

In order to prevent 26th, PAF needed to know the following in advance:

1. Number of packages and constituents of packages.
2. Whether each package could potentially make an attempt or just one with rest being decoys.
3. The target of the hot package.

Without this information, even the world's best airforce cannot prevent border intrusion and hasty lobbing of bombs from an enemy that is next door. If Canada and USA had an ongoing enmity, Canada could have done this against America.

So the first thing an amateur would say is that it is an intelligence failure. Except, we don't expect our intelligence agencies to have that deep knowledge. Which brings back a comment you once made: a memo is made in the Indian top command and it is received in Pakistan. Really? Where was the memo for 26th detailing the information pointed out above? ISI is good, but it isn't that good.

Given this, pinning the blame on CAS, or Haseeb Paracha is simply scapegoating. Even if former and current air chiefs were lambasting Haseeb Paracha, they were making a scapegoat out of him. The truth is, Imran Khan isn't man enough to give the order 'shoot any intruders'. Because the kind of man who gives that order, is the kind of man who would ask for swift and immediate retaliation. The kind of man who calls for an immediate response through a volley of Babar. If the international community can support shooting down escaping jets, it can support firing Babar on Indian airbases as well. Instead, the traitors Imran Khan and Qamar Javed Bajwa sat in the meeting and said 'Let us see in daylight whether damage has been done'. All other military chiefs were advocating an immediate response. This absolutely ridiculous logic by Imran Khan has been accepted by an uneducated, illiterate population that has been systematically kept uneducated and illiterate. And by the way, Imran Khan has personally said these words in an interview.

If BKT was the kind of leadership that stands up to aggression, then they would not have helped Modi's election campaign by immediate return of Abhinandan. They would not have let an Indian submarine get away. And they would not be doing 'paradigm shfits' saying 'Time to bury the past and move forward: COAS Bajwa on Indo-Pak ties'. On a slight tangent, we don't pay him to be Army Chief so he can solve the Kashmir problem through peaceful means. These words are a disgrace when coming from the mouth of the Army Chief of a nuclear power.

No intelligent Pakistani will buy the propaganda that is being spread by using yourself as a front.


Don't wait around for India to amass huge packages and dominate our airspace.

Atleast I'm this much clear that no one is feeding me anything....
... And moreover I'm not spreading any propaganda.

You are free to disagree with me, that's your right and I won't mind it .... But don't call it propaganda.... I take it as a disrespect.

 

[Raja Porus]

A person Very close to me who was serving in 10corps during the pulwama time told me many things that has allowed me to understand the fog and friction of war. That person,after the pulwama attack would return home after 10pm or even later and this continued for almost 40 days. The situation after pulwama was as intense as it could get. Very passive type of mobilisation also took place and I can say that with certainty as a unit in which my friend was serving was moved from Balochistan to Sialkot. After the intrusion the situation was extremely grave and serious not only had our integrity been challenged but the purpose of our armed forces was also challenged as it seemed that the billions of dollars that we had been investing were in vain. The person told me that everyone wanted the army AD commander and PAF sector commander to have their bums up and beaten. Their was also a becharaPAF attachee in HQs who bore the brunt of the criticism on PAF. That attachee himself being a humble and sincere person was very depressed and was roaming about the offices without berret and shaggy hair. Everyone's eyes were red not with awe but with anger and vengeance. Till early parts of the day of intrusion our morale was quite low but as the day developed the morale rose and the thirst of revenge would increase. Everyone, including my man who was always as cool as ice had lost it and and was itching to be let loose. The firing on loC from our side was intense and even our post were being provided ammunition individually just to expend it ( although usually our response is very controlled). We brought tanks for direct fire along the working boundary. Our morale had gone from rock bottom to sky high.. A havaldar who was a second seater of my typical fauji coaster told me that only his brigade had destroyed 17 posts. I remember calling the man through PASCOM and asking him about our response and he would always reply"wait and see". He returned home after midnight in a condition I hadn't seen him before completely motivated and pumped. He returned to his office at 4am after spending just 2-3 hours at home. Being forced into an early riser I was studying in my room when the pascom rang. I rushed to pick it up and in came the voice" turn on the TV". I turned on the TV and that was the time of my life. The news said that we had shot down two IAF jets. My mother gave Rs.500 to the chacha sweeper. I also announced the news to a havaldar who was waiting for file and filled with joy hurried towards the HQs to celebrate with others without taking the file from me. I told all of this to you to tell you how difficult,tough and stressing the whole war thing is especially for the higher ups which we usually don't understand.
As Nasser Hussain the English cricketer and commentator said "Pakistan cricket at it's best, one minute down next minute up", when Shadab caught kohli off Amir after being dropped by Azhar Ali in champions trophy. After that we got carried away and Azhar Ali wasn't checked for his mistake. A similar thing happened on 26/27. After our integrity was challenged we bounced back and gave them a bloody nose. But fortunately our armed forces didn't get carried away and learned many lessons. They looked at why we went down the first time especially when there were orders of shoot to kill. Who knows what happened to officers of MI(military intelligence) directorate who were held responsible of not being able to provide real time information and failed to inform the PAF of impending attack. Many a running horses and career officers of AAD and MI were superseded or deemed not fit because though they might be good at drawing lines on paper were unable to deliver in reality... These are my personal views
@PanzerKiel @Raider 21 @Signalian @Windjammer @The Eagle @Reichmarshal @Air Wolf

 

[Abdulrehman 2978]

Atleast I'm this much clear that no one is feeding me anything....
... And moreover I'm not spreading any propaganda.

You are free to disagree with me, that's your right and I won't mind it .... But don't call it propaganda.... I take it as a disrespect.

THIS dude really thinks imran khan and bajwa are traitors for not starting a nuclear war?

 

[Windjammer]

Problem is the standard buffer zone was crossed that night and no response was shown from our side which only showed the limitations in our doctrine. Many people say that the Indian violation was only for a few kilometres but from what I've heard from people having knowledge of things that was not the case. What was the CAP doing when the buffer zone was crossed and why weren't any missiles fired especially when the clearance was always there from the government.

27 February was nothing more than a small tactical victory and honestly speaking we shouldn't be over celebrating it like this keeping in mind the failures of 26th February.

They may or may have not crossed the buffer zone is open to question however sending weapons across into mainland Pakistan is the main point. India in the past has admitted that whether intentionally or by accident, both Pakistan and China have violated it's airspace several hundred times. Now coming to 26th February, there were indications that India may try some misadventure, naturally PAF and other defences were on alert, last thing any one would suspect for Indians to target would be a seminary never the less they tried their luck in the middle of the night with putting up several diversions in place. Till next day light, no one was sure what they hit if anything. The reply came when the Indians had their guard up and it came in broad daylight.....but you being a habitual critic of PAF don't see it from that angle. One could ask why the IAF after given a bloody nose within 24 hours and with much more resources at it's disposal lost the appetite to counter attack. Remember Indians attempted to raid a civilian set up while PAF raided their military installations which was much more bold and challenging. It's good to point out the weaknesses but one should also have the heart to acknowledge the achievements.

 

[Raja Porus]

THIS dude really thinks imran khan and bajwa are traitors for not starting a nuclear war?

Shooting down of some extra planes that too when they are intruding with full payload and plans to bomb part of your country does not mean triggering a nuclear war

 

[Clairvoyant]

They may or may have not crossed the buffer zone is open to question however sending weapons across into mainland Pakistan is the main point. India in the past has admitted that whether intentionally or by accident, both Pakistan and China have violated it's airspace several hundred times. Now coming to 26th February, there were indications that India may try some misadventure, naturally PAF and other defences were on alert, last thing any one would suspect for Indians to target would be a seminary never the less they tried their luck in the middle of the night with putting up several diversions in place. Till next day light, no one was sure what they hit if anything. The reply came when the Indians had their guard up and it came in broad daylight.....but you being a habitual critic of PAF don't see it from that angle. One could ask why the IAF after given a bloody nose within 24 hours and with much more resources at it's disposal lost the appetite to counter attack. Remember Indians attempted to raid a civilian set up while PAF raided their military installations which was much more bold and challenging. It's good to point out the weaknesses but one should also have the heart to acknowledge the achievements.

I prefer being a realist rather than being over optimistic, sometimes it's better to be critical instead of over celebrating something which gives the impression that you are basically hiding your own failures under the carpet. Secondly I am critical because I've a brother who was in the air that day and have heard enough of what happened,it's not that I'm talking nonsense.

I don't want to disclose more in public though trust me much more has happened than what you know.

Cheers

 

[Reichmarshal]

Overstretched ? Not enough CAPS, Sir what we do then in a war ?

there is no defense that's perfect and no AF in the world that can cover its whole air space, not even usaf or idf or plaf or any other AF in the world. gaps are always their it's just how u exploit ur opportunity.

we exploited ours better than the indians n that's that.

 

[Dil_Pakistan]

Atleast I'm this much clear that no one is feeding me anything....
... And moreover I'm not spreading any propaganda.

You are free to disagree with me, that's your right and I won't mind it .... But don't call it propaganda.... I take it as a disrespect.

Sir ignore such people. The said member just reminded me of another dude roaming around here and on other forum, where they foster and promote the same thought process.
People just don't see or want to see that China despite military overpowering as well as economically and every other means doesn't intends to go on war with its neighbors with whom it has territorial disputes.
Instead it looks to solve the issue by other means. Pakistani by nature are hot blooded but perhaps after attaching our future with China and Chinese partnership, the top brass is starting to think out things the Chinese way.
Today, countries need to be internally strong, self-reliant economically and else wise to show some spine but also action. Lack of these and you will fall flat face to the ground. Another case example is Turkey which has made itself strong and is now pursuing regional agenda both political and military.
I feel the current leadership is doing it best and they are both courageous but also sane and wise. I don't know what kind of leadership our people want, that which says this is just a border, we eat the same food and worship same (N.A), the one that puts it interest first than country ultimately causing it to divide, or the one that looks to secure their own future and do deals with political leadership that ultimately ruin the country and eat it up from inside like termite.
Btw people easily forget that it was the same PM who said we would not think of retaliating but retaliate and DG ISPR statements of the day were there to be seen by everybody.

 

[Vapour]

@PanzerKiel anything you can mention about ground ops/actions along LOC and WB in the weeks and months after Op Swift Retort?

 

[Reichmarshal]

A person Very close to me who was serving in 10corps during the pulwama time told me many things that has allowed me to understand the fog and friction of war. That person,after the pulwama attack would return home after 10pm or even later and this continued for almost 40 days. The situation after pulwama was as intense as it could get. Very passive type of mobilisation also took place and I can say that with certainty as a unit in which my friend was serving was moved from Balochistan to Sialkot. After the intrusion the situation was extremely grave and serious not only had our integrity been challenged but the purpose of our armed forces was also challenged as it seemed that the billions of dollars that we had been investing were in vain. The person told me that everyone wanted the army AD commander and PAF sector commander to have their bums up and beaten. Their was also a becharaPAF attachee in HQs who bore the brunt of the criticism on PAF. That attachee himself being a humble and sincere person was very depressed and was roaming about the offices without berret and shaggy hair. Everyone's eyes were red not with awe but with anger and vengeance. Till early parts of the day of intrusion our morale was quite low but as the day developed the morale rose and the thirst of revenge would increase. Everyone, including my man who was always as cool as ice had lost it and and was itching to be let loose. The firing on loC from our side was intense and even our post were being provided ammunition individually just to expend it ( although usually our response is very controlled). We brought tanks for direct fire along the working boundary. Our morale had gone from rock bottom to sky high.. A havaldar who was a second seater of my typical fauji coaster told me that only his brigade had destroyed 17 posts. I remember calling the man through PASCOM and asking him about our response and he would always reply"wait and see". He returned home after midnight in a condition I hadn't seen him before completely motivated and pumped. He returned to his office at 4am after spending just 2-3 hours at home. Being forced into an early riser I was studying in my room when the pascom rang. I rushed to pick it up and in came the voice" turn on the TV". I turned on the TV and that was the time of my life. The news said that we had shot down two IAF jets. My mother gave Rs.500 to the chacha sweeper. I also announced the news to a havaldar who was waiting for file and filled with joy hurried towards the HQs to celebrate with others without taking the file from me. I told all of this to you to tell you how difficult,tough and stressing the whole war thing is especially for the higher ups which we usually don't understand.
As Nasser Hussain the English cricketer and commentator said "Pakistan cricket at it's best, one minute down next minute up", when Shadab caught kohli off Amir after being dropped by Azhar Ali in champions trophy. After that we got carried away and Azhar Ali wasn't checked for his mistake. A similar thing happened on 26/27. After our integrity was challenged we bounced back and gave them a bloody nose. But fortunately our armed forces didn't get carried away and learned many lessons. They looked at why we went down the first time especially when there were orders of shoot to kill. Who knows what happened to officers of MI(military intelligence) directorate who were held responsible of not being able to provide real time information and failed to inform the PAF of impending attack. Many a running horses and career officers of AAD and MI were superseded or deemed not fit because though they might be good at drawing lines on paper were unable to deliver in reality... These are my personal views
@PanzerKiel @Raider 21 @Signalian @Windjammer @The Eagle @Reichmarshal @Air Wolf

i think I have ansed most of ur questions in my posts over the last two days.

It is unfair of any one-to blame anyone from MI for not informing us of the attack as it's not their job.
the indians had selected multiple targets all along our border from Bahawalpur to jaba top where they eventually attacked. n this had been conveyed by ISI. now to expect the intl boys to pinpoint the location of the attack is pure bs as the indians weren't sure of it themself

So you're saying former chiefs were called as well? Even though they were not in the know how anymore please elaborate.

no one called them, like the rest of us were angry and pissed, so they did the first thing that came to mind

 

[Reichmarshal]

Alot of information flowing around. Alot of new revelations. What happened on 26th, almost everybody (civilians) used to think that we couldn't do anything due to our limitations. Now we have another angle as to why it happened.
Then another side to the story is if our PM and COAS couldn't muster enough courage. Maybe we will never know the exact details. But one thing which is clearly visible is that Bajwa is past his expiry date. It's not rocket science that with age your ability to take big bold decisions reduce. Biggest blunder by IK to give extension only to save his skin.

economy at the time was so weak that the govt. was struggling to pay salaries... wars are fought on the back of stable eco. our coffers back then were empty. couldn't afford war back then or even now.

they made the right call and we should appreciate them for it.