Y. The big Why?

[Black.Mamba]

Jinnah was not secular. We were made to be an Islamic Republic.

I will humbly disagree, If you have any proof to substantiate your claim that will be helpful understanding it.

I have posted a major chunk of his speech on the following post, he category denied the idea of a any religious state. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-the-big-why.700371/post-12943637

 

[The Accountant]

I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

• Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
• Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?

The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

China copying west ? Communisim was rejected by west. Dont u remember cold war? It was all about economic model.

Japan copying west. This is the biggest joke. Japan has its own culture. Have u even visited japan or worked with a japanese organization? Japan work philosophy education culture everything is miles apart from west.

The only thing common between all the developed countries and the less developed countries is economic growth and education.

Why we r not working on it? Look at your leaders and yourself. Hardly there would be any person in pakistan who wouldnt admit that NS and Zardari are corrupt to the core but still supports them.

Why we do that because the landlords and gaddi nasheenand armed force leaders who r our leaders are the same person who betrayed the nation and sided with british forces. We still have traitors as our leaders. They will not let us unite and get ourselves educated to maintain lordship

 

[Materialistic]

Great Post.
Btw I am not able to understand where the culture part comes maybe i missed a few posts. The main idea behind OP's post is not leaving our culture (literally) and following the western, shalwar kameez is way too practical to give up . Our culture is what makes us unique, it is our identity and it differentiates us from Indians to some extent so I do not think the culture you are referring to is even questioned here. The culture we need to change is the culture of lying, the culture of deceiving, the culture of not working hard, the culture of not being innovative, the culture of not business oriented, so on and so forth.

Well, I feel OP partially pointed out the real culture especially when he talks about the adoption of western culture and refers to Ataturk.

So basically I questioned all the elements which collectively make culture as Ataturk literally enforced cultural changes like language, dressing and more.

The other part of his post and the points you mentioned, I believe are behavioral issues of society generally influenced by elements or incidents around us.

Aside from this discussion not pointing @Indus Pakistan , we are already losing the real culture at a very fast pace and slave mentality is so rampant that a lot of people simply do not realize it and consider it as we all need a sort of Software update to progress further.

As for the countries you mentioned, almost all of them had a rise with authoritarian rulers and policies. Do you also point out in the similar direction?

To be honest, I think democracy has a lot of limitations and with excessive marketing, it looks like the only politically correct option. But if you look at how it has delivered then there are a lot of flaws and it's mostly failing. It has only performed better in developed nations where political & economical stability existed for over a century at least and people were also prepared to adopt it.

As for the UK, well they are outnumbered by south asians so it was bound to happen

LOL.. and they can't get away from it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

China copying west ? Communisim was rejected by west

Russia and large part of Europe was ran by communist governments until 1990. That they rejected it in the last decade of the century does not change the fact that communism is a western political philosophy influenced by German writer Karl Marx who wrote his ideas in London library. Russia itself as a civilizational entity is broadly part of the west even it is politicaly estranged from the American led west, Bottom line communism is actually more "Made in West" then Christianity which has it's roots in West Asia.

 

[The Accountant]

Russia and large part of Europe was ran by communist governments until 1990. That they rejected it in the last decade of the century does not change the fact that communism is a western political philosophy influenced by German writer Karl Marx who wrote his ideas in London library. Russia itself as a civilizational entity is broadly part of the west even it is politicaly estranged from the American led west, Bottom line communism is actually more "Made in West" then Christianity which has it's roots in West Asia.

Sorry my friend this is not generally accepted definition.

A person loving in london writing something does not become a western idea specially same was rejected by them..

Last but not the least i mentioned many points but u ignore all of them. Why r u so impressed from western culture ?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

A person loving in london writing something does not become a western idea specially same was rejected by them

Karl Marx was a German which is in heart of Europe. His entire book was informed by the events unfolding in the European continent at that time. Massive scale industrlization with workers living in abject poverty and in vast slums. So Communism is a Western philosophy whether you agree. You hardly think communism is Asiatic do you.This is the bible of communists.The Communist Manifesto - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › The_Communist_Manifesto


The Communist Manifesto, originally the Manifesto of the Communist Party (German: Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei), is an 1848 political document by German philosophers Karl Marxand Friedrich Engels.
Country: United Kingdom
Author: Karl Marx and ‎Friedrich Engels‎
Publication date: February 1848
Language: German
‎Writing · ‎Publication · ‎Legacy · ‎Influences




https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/books/karl-marx/communist-manifesto/9780850364781#GOR001835812
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=s...Kk01hCQ6uBHIvjfCT_t1cCM52VqzMVg:1612440202207
https://www.whsmith.co.uk/products/...friedrich-engels/paperback/9780850364781.html
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=s...Kk01hCQ6uBHIvjfCT_t1cCM52VqzMVg:1612440202207
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Communist-...sc=1?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&psc=1
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=s...Kk01hCQ6uBHIvjfCT_t1cCM52VqzMVg:1612440202207

 

[CatSultan]

I will humbly disagree, If you have any proof to substantiate your claim that will be helpful understanding it.

I have posted a major chunk of his speech on the following post, he category denied the idea of a any religious state. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-the-big-why.700371/post-12943637

what you posted doesn't prove he was secular. Only that he supported freedom of religion

 

[Black.Mamba]

View attachment 713653
View attachment 713654
what you posted doesn't prove he was secular. Only that he supported freedom of religion

I never said he was secular. I said he never wanted religion to define Pakistan. What you posted doesn't prove he believed in theocracy, I can actually give you a reference where he clearly said Pakistan should not be a theocratic state.

“We follow the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) … but make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it.”
Jinnah - 19 February 1948, in a broadcast talk to the people of Australia

During the same month, in another broadcast, this time to the people of the USA, the Quaid outlined his expectations regarding the constitution:

“The Constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of the constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life, as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its ideals have taught us democracy. It has taught use equality of men, justice and fair play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions … as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State – to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims – Hindus, Christians, and Parsis – but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

From the above, it is clear that Jinnah dreamed of the creation of an “Islamic democracy”, not a theocracy nor a democratic system devoid of religious influence. He went on to elaborate the image of an Islamic democracy, in various speeches.

On 14 December 1946, in London he said:
“Democracy is the lifeblood of Musalmans, who look upon complete equality of manhood … believe in fraternity, equality and liberty.”
.
.
.
There are 100s of other speeches by him and the crux is he never wanted a Mullah ka Pakistan.

 

[CatSultan]

I never said he was secular. I said he never wanted religion to define Pakistan. What you posted doesn't prove he believed in theocracy, I can actually give you a reference where he clearly said Pakistan should not be a theocratic state.

“We follow the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) … but make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it.”
Jinnah - 19 February 1948, in a broadcast talk to the people of Australia

During the same month, in another broadcast, this time to the people of the USA, the Quaid outlined his expectations regarding the constitution:

“The Constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of the constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life, as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its ideals have taught us democracy. It has taught use equality of men, justice and fair play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions … as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State – to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims – Hindus, Christians, and Parsis – but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

From the above, it is clear that Jinnah dreamed of the creation of an “Islamic democracy”, not a theocracy nor a democratic system devoid of religious influence. He went on to elaborate the image of an Islamic democracy, in various speeches.

On 14 December 1946, in London he said:
“Democracy is the lifeblood of Musalmans, who look upon complete equality of manhood … believe in fraternity, equality and liberty.”
.
.
.
There are 100s of other speeches by him and the crux is he never wanted a Mullah ka Pakistan.

Pakistan is not a theocracy but it is not a secular state either. And Jinnah didn't want it to be a secular state.

 

[Black.Mamba]

Pakistan is not a theocracy but it is not a secular state either. And Jinnah didn't want it to be a secular state.

I agree with you on that one.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

• Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
• Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?

The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

A most interesting proposition. I have just seen it now, 4:25 on Thursday, and need a little time to respond.

 

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

most of these good, so-called Western values are also in Islam. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) taught all these good values, not just religion, and muslims built a civilisation upon it that lasted 1400 years. the answers to becoming great again are all within islam. but in any muslim society you have factions and a civil war between them.

one faction is the weird so-called super religious group that rejects things that are allowed in islamic law (such as women's rights, pursuit of science, etc). second is the semi literate in religion that accepts one thing (like women's rights) but rejects hudud (for example) or vice versa. this 2nd group has loads of sub-factions. 3rd group are the so-called liberal muslims, that can be accurately described as cultural muslims or closet atheists, and if they were born into a hindu family they would be a cultural hindu instead. these cultural muslims (liberals) have no brain of their own, they look at West and think whatever they are doing must be the perfect thing to do. if they were born in the time of the Mongols and saw their rise then they would probably think living like a Mongol is the way to go.

the group of people that made islamic civilisation powerful and great were those stuck to the rules and principles of islam, and werent afraid of science, technology, new governing procedures, application of justice on all citizens, speaking the truth in the face of danger, etc. but this group is basically a tiny minority in today's society. most people dont even practice justice inside their own homes, they dont care too much about religion. which creates a big identity clash and lack of direction for the whole society in Pakistan which calls itself an islamic republic. we are islamic in name only. an islamic republic could be a great nation. but when a republic is made up of a society with the factions i mentioned above, then that society is a mess and only the crooks rise to the top. in that sort of republic, everything is terrible. from economy, to law and order, justice, etc. while the West might not be religious, they follow many of the teachings of islam (in aspects of governance, science, law and order, etc). whereas our Islamic republic of Pakistan follows the praying/fasting/hajj/zakat part of islam, but doesnt practice the parts of islam that the West practices. we dont even practice those forgotten princples in our own homes, so how can be apply it and see it in wider society?

until we have a religious revival of the ikhlaq that Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and the first khalifas taught, we will always have this lack of direction and identity. but Imran Khan talks about some of these principles, so maybe it can be inserted into society to some extent if we have a benevolent, dictator sort of leader for a decade or two that applies the good governance aspect of islam, regardless of how much the leader actually practices the religion in his own house.

 

[Indos]

 

[W.11]

Perhaps the issue lies more with how the narrative has been shaped, of Western Values completely replacing local values and culture. The fact that Western Culture and values are often represented in our own discourse as 'obscene and immoral' does not help.

Discourse in Pakistan around Western culture and values is often reduced to caricatures of the West - women running around naked or half naked, people having sex with everyone and their uncle/aunty, sky rocketing divorce rates (without any attempt to understand the factors behind higher divorce rates) etc. So when people try to argue in favor of 'Western values' such as respect, civic responsibilities, equal rights, religious freedom, tolerance etc. the discussion gets drowned in the noise we create around the aforementioned caricature of the West we've created to make ourselves look better in comparison.

I think at this point, given the amount of hostility that already exists, focusing on absorbing certain Western values (civic responsibility, tolerance, respect etc) is probably a better approach than expecting Pakistan to follow Turkey. The time for emulating Turkey is long gone, but we can still take a lot of good values the West has and incorporate them, especially by pointing out that Islam itself calls for much of the same.

Why doesnt western society follow eastern values as well? why only arguing for one way adoption of these values.

The religious tolerance is such that belgium just banned slaughter meat of kosher and halal, france is gearing up to punish muslims and exhibiting extrem forms of xenophobia, poland has banned immigration of Muslims, so no, the western ideals have agenda and its based on their political model. Religious tolerance is practised by muslims better than the europeans themselves (not kidding, as they would exhibit lesser xenphobia than their western counter part, given you dont mock their religious values and dont break their cultural norms), there are isolated cases of persecutions/crimes against minorities, but its also done in the west, what happened to tolerance for black ppl? why are they agitating as Black lives matter? Please see the favourable views of western travel vloggers on eastern countries which they post in YT? why they rank pakistan, iran for instance on top of their lists? lets stop looking everything with negativity in our society and find foreign role model to emulate.

Western tolerance is so much then why are thy refusing to accept migrants from Syria, a country which they ruined? why Pkaistan keeps being open minded abt afghan refugees made by war which pakistan never instigated? Turkey, jordan all share more burden of syrian rufees then so called western nations why?

We need rule of law and justice, any country as banana republic with injustices cannot spread good values in the society.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why doesnt western society follow eastern values as well? why only arguing for one way adoption of these values.

The religious tolerance is such that belgium just banned slaughter meat of kosher and halal, france is gearing up to punish muslims and exhibiting extrem forms of xenophobia, poland has banned immigration of Muslims, so no, the western ideals have agenda and its based on their political model. Religious tolerance is practised by muslims better than the europeans themselves (not kidding, as they would exhibit lesser xenphobia than their western counter part, given you dont mock their religious values and dont break their cultural norms), there are isolated cases of persecutions/crimes against minorities, but its also done in the west, what happened to tolerance for black ppl? why are they agitating as Black lives matter? Please see the favourable views of western travel vloggers on eastern countries which they post in YT? why they rank pakistan, iran for instance on top of their lists? lets stop looking everything with negativity in our society and find foreign role model to emulate.

Western tolerance is so much then why are thy refusing to accept migrants from Syria, a country which they ruined? why Pkaistan keeps being open minded abt afghan refugees made by war which pakistan never instigated? Turkey, jordan all share more burden of syrian rufees then so called western nations why?

We need rule of law and justice, any country as banana republic with injustices cannot spread good values in the society.

Why should certain countries in the West adopting discriminatory policies impact the discussion on absorbing positive, progressive values (such as the ones I mentioned) in Pakistan?

Speaking for the US, there is a very strong section of liberals and non-White Americans (including Muslim Americans) that have fought against policies such as banning kosher and halal or hijab (or other religious symbols) in public, and who have called for the US to accept more refugees and migrants. Of course the Right Wing and Republicans/Trumpers don't want any of the above and they typically use similar arguments to those you made to argue against such policies.