Y. The big Why?

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Thanks. I am not here to make friends. I am here to think aloud my thoughts derived from lifetime of reading and considering without the constraints imposed in real life. They call me racist. If that means I think the peoples of the land that birthed Pakistan are superior. Then so be it. Despite all the problems. My frustration is precisely because I think Baloch, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pakhtuns, Kashmiri's or the peoples of the Indus Valey are intrinsically superior then Gangus and could do better.

Bro, the biggest problem of Pakistanis is that they do not strive for excellence nor do they value themselves. Once we overcome that we should be okay. We WILL be okay. I personally believe that Pakistan will EVENTUALLY become successful and the Chinese will somehow play a part in it.

What some people here fail to understand is that we are not true muslims in reality. Yeah we show off being very religious but even kids are raped in madrassahs. Does Islam allow us to do corruption, take bribes, do forgery, lie, cheat, steal, kill???? Islam even tells ur responsible if ur neighbor is hungry. Religion gives u clear orders about halal and haram earnings, do we care? Islam even tells u not to spread a claim unless uve seen proof. Islam tells u not to earn a shred of haram earning and corruption is widespread in the religious country that u ppl think is religious? We are not following Islam in any way.
Now what western values are there that so many here appreciate and want in Pakistan? Having lived in west for long, i know what values they have and those are exactly the values Islam want muslims to have too. Westerners are mostly very truthful and hate liars, they are down to earth, honest, upright, law abiding, hard working, loyal, isnt that all Islam asks u to have as well?
Blame our hypocrisy, because we show off as religious and ready to kill for it but we dont follow the religion at all. We can develop only by shunning hypocrisy and having those qualities, be it through religion or westernization.

You are saying EXACTLY what brother Indus said but in a different way.

 

[Black.Mamba]

What some people here fail to understand is that we are not true muslims in reality. Yeah we show off being very religious but even kids are raped in madrassahs. Does Islam allow us to do corruption, take bribes, do forgery, lie, cheat, steal, kill???? Islam even tells ur responsible if ur neighbor is hungry. Religion gives u clear orders about halal and haram earnings, do we care? Islam even tells u not to spread a claim unless uve seen proof. Islam tells u not to earn a shred of haram earning and corruption is widespread in the religious country that u ppl think is religious? We are not following Islam in any way.
Now what western values are there that so many here appreciate and want in Pakistan? Having lived in west for long, i know what values they have and those are exactly the values Islam want muslims to have too. Westerners are mostly very truthful and hate liars, they are down to earth, honest, upright, law abiding, hard working, loyal, isnt that all Islam asks u to have as well?
Blame our hypocrisy, because we show off as religious and ready to kill for it but we dont follow the religion at all. We can develop only by shunning hypocrisy and having those qualities, be it through religion or westernization.

I agree with you in every aspect except one small observation. When Islam talks about not lying, deceiving, law-abiding ....... it does not qualify it as religious duty per se rather, it quantifies as a way of life and the ones who will be following all these principles will eventually be good Muslims.

Keeping Islam as a pivot, our society is divided among many factions be it the Shia, Sunni divide, or the mullah from Deobandi or the imam of the Hanafi, we are not even considering the linguistical and ethenic divide yet. So this discussion has to be shaped in a way that transcends beyond these divides and is more inclusive across every sect, religion, color, and caste. Therefore, we have to address these basic issues of morality, as to why lying is bad? or how being humble is better or how helping others is our duty, why liars should be shunned, or Why having a fancy car does not make someone more respectable than the person putting up a fruit stall on the sidewalk or the laborer working from dawn to dusk to earn a living for his children.

The narrative should be built not as a reason as to why western society is ahead or as to what Islam says rather what is right and what is wrong. And we as a Nation will be doing the right thing only no matter if it is a concept of West, East, Islam, Christianity, or anything else. Period.

As a starter we all can start from within with 3 basic things:
1. I will not lie nor deceive anyone no matter what it costs.
2. I will not even give 10 rs in context of Chai-pani.
3. I will stand in the line and wait for my turn, I will not ask for favours nor will find someone who takes some money so that I can get done with this and in our head justify it as the cost of my time.

 

[Norwegian]

When Islam talks about not lying, deceiving, law-abiding ....... it does not qualify it as religious duty per se

It does. Islam is a complete way of life as showed by its founder prophet Muhammad in his own lifetime. Did he or his Sahabas lied, cheated as today's Muslims do?

 

[Black.Mamba]

It does. Islam is a complete way of life as showed by its founder prophet Muhammad in his own lifetime. Did he or his Sahabas lied, cheated as today's Muslims do?

Read the full sentence my friend Islam was not gifted to our Prophet ﷺ for praying and worshipping purpose only, there were many other Abhramic religions before doing a very fine job. One of the main reason was to fix the way of life and make us better humans.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Agreed. The only other alternative is if Pakistan adopts the Chinese model.

The Chinese model is Westernization with a epicanthic fold.

 

[Norwegian]

Therefore, we have to address these basic issues of morality, as to why lying is bad? or how being humble is better or how helping others is our duty, why liars should be shunned, or Why having a fancy car does not make someone more respectable than the person putting up a fruit stall on the sidewalk or the laborer working from dawn to dusk to earn a living for his children.

Islam teaches highest forms of morality. It equates rich and poor in front of law. It is against racism and gives all same rights no matter what cast, color or creed. It's not Islam's fault that today's Muslims have become corrupt when they choose to follow Islam as per their own wishes.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

• Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
• Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?

The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

Pakistan should copy the best from every powerful nation be it China India US Europe and leave crappy stuff because one thing is for sure, Pakistan as a society is F-ed up.
Pakistan would rather lean Arabic in school which will do no good for students future and ignore more beneficial languages such as English and Chinese. Urdu use to be powerful language pre-British empire but now Urdu systematically made useless and in order for Pakistan to catch up with the world they need to adopt new ideas.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

The Chinese model is Westernization with a epicanthic fold.

View attachment 713000

But the only way Pakistan and Pakistanis can utilise that model is if presented via the Chinese. The Chinese are the adaptor for us to be compatible with Western modernity.

 

[Black.Mamba]

Islam teaches highest forms of morality. It equates rich and poor in front of law. It is against racism and gives all same rights no matter what cast, color or creed. It's not Islam's fault that today's Muslims have become corrupt when they choose to follow Islam as per their own wishes.

Again you are missing the point and I don't want to have a religious discussion as the purpose of this thread is entirely different. We have divided Islam into many different franchise, so my point is if you are pushing a narrative as "Islamic" then people will come running which Islam shia or sunni blah blah blah. And just for clarification Pakistan has a good number of Hindu, Sikhs and Christians as well they don't have to follow "Islam" so comes my point again. We have to differentiate between right and wrong not islamic or non islamic teaching.

 

[Norwegian]

Pakistan should copy the best from every powerful nation be it China India US Europe and leave crappy stuff because one thing is for sure, Pakistan as a society is F-ed up.
Pakistan would rather lean Arabic in school which will do no good for students future and ignore more beneficial languages such as English and Chinese. Urdu use to be powerful language pre-British empire but not Urdu systematically made useless and in order for Pakistan to catch up with the world they need to adopt new ideas.

Unfortunately you can't copy higher morals from anywhere. They must come from within the nations own progressive reform

 

[Materialistic]

I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

• Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
• Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?

The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

Interesting post and interesting responses but it seems the discussion has gone in a different direction.

This one topic is of great interest to me - no idea where to begin with.. therefore I will ask a few questions to prove the point, followed by some points to .. prove my point again.

• Why do we voluntarily associate the word Desi with everything we look down upon?
• Since when culture runs countries? And how did wearing shalwar kameez, speaking our own languages, worshipping in a masjid, our poetry, our music, our weddings/funerals and our ways of celebrations/mourning, living with family, our dramas, our movies have failed us as a nation or a country?
• Is there really a Western culture? or is it just a vague reference we make just like Westerners wouldn't be able to truly distinguish Pakistani culture from Indian?
• East Europeans and South Americans comparatively closely share their culture and way of living with Western Europe and North America respectively than us then why didn't they equally progress and lagged way behind even the eastern countries like China, Japan, S.Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia even us in some cases.
• Was it cultural adoption or industrial success/discipline and better governance that lead to rise of modern day Japan, China, S.Korea and others?
• What is the measure of success?
• Is economic success really the success of society at all levels?

• We don't need to become somebody else just to be successful infact eastern past record is better than western if we look back in last millennium and would have been much better even now if balance of world power was not abruptly destroyed with 4 western countries ruling pretty much the entire globe because of two factors: better guns and better ships. Leading to a long period of unfair advantage helping the Western sphere develop systems that would help maintain the new global power landscape.
• And enforce their own culture through their loyal puppet Rajas/Nawabs
• We can be who we are and just fix the societial issues which are not part of any culture in the world: disorder, dishonesty, lack of political understanding, lack of will, laid back attitude, unnecessary criticism, negativity
• There is no western culture. Rest of Europeans don't excel or are rushing to excel in speaking English or leave any tradition of their culture aside. Even the English speaking countries maintain their differences for the sake of identity down to the most casually spoken words and colloquial
• With enough CCTV cameras and well-resourced/trained police we will also be able to get rid prevent crimes from happening.
• We need a better economic policy, proactive and skilled rulers and a rational national attitude where you select a man for the job and then put him to the task - where dialogue is more about responsibility towards others rather than every other random person crying for some kind of a right

The problem is not the problem, the problem is our attitude towards the problem - Sir Jack Sparrow

• Ataturk won Turkey no extra benefits by adopting latin script or other western traits even today the world is the witness of the love Turkey gets from the west.
• Japan's only and biggest conflict with the west took place after the Meiji restoration and ows current success to technological advances
• Chinese success is based on their strict governance and industrial policies - nothing else.
• India with all the same problems as us and even at a bigger scale and severity are doing better economically thanks to good business policies and a proactive business-minded community
• Turkey credit goes to Erdogan
• GCC Arabs, credit goes to oil
• Philipines strong human resource overseas and services sector
• Thailand clothes, tourism and other products
• Bangladesh, export industry
• Malaysia > Mahatir Mohammed
• Brunei > natural resources
• Taiwan > technology
• Sout Korea > technology

And best example is the UK, it's trend is downward economically, every passing decade brings more problems despite being a western country with western culture (as in OP), best education, the most politically stable country over the past few hundred years and a superpower just a century ago.

Culture has nothing to do with success or failure, infact western countries care more for their culture than Pakistan. Nations around the world proactively preserve, practice and project their cultures worldwide and take pride in it.

We are not born to be followers, we must carve and lead our path

 

[Black.Mamba]

Interesting post and interesting responses but it seems the discussion has gone in a different direction.

This one topic is of great interest to me - no idea where to begin with.. therefore I will ask a few questions to prove the point, followed by some points to .. prove my point again.

• Why do we voluntarily associate the word Desi with everything we look down upon?
• Since when culture runs countries? And how did wearing shalwar kameez, speaking our own languages, worshipping in a masjid, our poetry, our music, our weddings/funerals and our ways of celebrations/mourning, living with family, our dramas, our movies have failed us as a nation or a country?
• Is there really a Western culture? or is it just a vague reference we make just like Westerners wouldn't be able to truly distinguish Pakistani culture from Indian?
• East Europeans and South Americans comparatively closely share their culture and way of living with Western Europe and North America respectively than us then why didn't they equally progress and lagged way behind even the eastern countries like China, Japan, S.Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia even us in some cases.
• Was it cultural adoption or industrial success/discipline and better governance that lead to rise of modern day Japan, China, S.Korea and others?
• What is the measure of success?
• Is economic success really the success of society at all levels?

• We don't need to become somebody else just to be successful infact eastern past record is better than western if we look back in last millennium and would have been much better even now if balance of world power was not abruptly destroyed with 4 western countries ruling pretty much the entire globe because of two factors: better guns and better ships. Leading to a long period of unfair advantage helping the Western sphere develop systems that would help maintain the new global power landscape.
• And enforce their own culture through their loyal puppet Rajas/Nawabs
• We can be who we are and just fix the societial issues which are not part of any culture in the world: disorder, dishonesty, lack of political understanding, lack of will, laid back attitude, unnecessary criticism, negativity
• There is no western culture. Rest of Europeans don't excel or are rushing to excel in speaking English or leave any tradition of their culture aside. Even the English speaking countries maintain their differences for the sake of identity down to the most casually spoken words and colloquial
• With enough CCTV cameras and well-resourced/trained police we will also be able to get rid prevent crimes from happening.
• We need a better economic policy, proactive and skilled rulers and a rational national attitude where you select a man for the job and then put him to the task - where dialogue is more about responsibility towards others rather than every other random person crying for some kind of a right

The problem is not the problem, the problem is our attitude towards the problem - Sir Jack Sparrow

• Ataturk won Turkey no extra benefits by adopting latin script or other western traits even today the world is the witness of the love Turkey gets from the west.
• Japan's only and biggest conflict with the west took place after the Meiji restoration and ows current success to technological advances
• Chinese success is based on their strict governance and industrial policies - nothing else.
• India with all the same problems as us and even at a bigger scale and severity are doing better economically thanks to good business policies and a proactive business-minded community
• Turkey credit goes to Erdogan
• GCC Arabs, credit goes to oil
• Philipines strong human resource overseas and services sector
• Thailand clothes, tourism and other products
• Bangladesh, export industry
• Malaysia > Mahatir Mohammed
• Brunei > natural resources
• Taiwan > technology
• Sout Korea > technology

And best example is the UK, it's trend is downward economically, every passing decade brings more problems despite being a western country with western culture (as in OP), best education, the most politically stable country over the past few hundred years and a superpower just a century ago.

Culture has nothing to do with success or failure, infact western countries care more for their culture than Pakistan. Nations around the world proactively preserve, practice and project their cultures worldwide and take pride in it.

We are not born to be followers, we must carve and lead our path

Great Post.
Btw I am not able to understand where the culture part comes maybe i missed a few posts. The main idea behind OP's post is not leaving our culture (literally) and following the western, shalwar kameez is way too practical to give up . Our culture is what makes us unique, it is our identity and it differentiates us from Indians to some extent so I do not think the culture you are referring to is even questioned here. The culture we need to change is the culture of lying, the culture of deceiving, the culture of not working hard, the culture of not being innovative, the culture of not business oriented, so on and so forth.

As for the countries you mentioned, almost all of them had a rise with authoritarian rulers and policies. Do you also point out in the similar direction?

As for the UK, well they are outnumbered by south asians so it was bound to happen

“A conscious human is driven by their conscience, not popular opinion.”
Suzy Kassem

 

[CatSultan]

Western Values are not superior that is why we don't adopt them. The west does have some good things that we can learn from but we don't have to accept their values.
Also Japan had to basically get nuked and then occupied by america to adopt their values. South Korea needed the west to survive and China does not follow western values.

 

[CatSultan]

Sir I believe our reluctance is stemmed in the days when Britishers started ruling us. Muslims didn`t welcome the Western culture whereas Hindus did and they excelled till the time Sir Syed Ahmad Khan came and told us there was nothing to be scared of.

Then he died on a toilet

And what does that tell us? We were never meant to be islamic republic, religion had nothing to do with the state of Pakistan.

Jinnah was not secular. We were made to be an Islamic Republic.

Npw your on to something. The underlying reason is not Islam. Pakistan's are not the only Muslims. Look at Turks. Is Erdogan lesser of a Muslim for wearing "gora" cloths then Mullah Diesel?

The informing reason is the humiliation of the conquest by Western people. Our defeated culture had two choices. Adapt and do better then the invaders [like Turks/Japanese did] or turn inwards and hold a grudge. We decided to hold a grudge. And we still carry it like a chip on our shoulders. It is a complex of defeatism.

Next time you see UN convention. Note the dress codes. The mighty Japs who fought and almost defeated the Americans, the Turks who conquered Europe, the economic tiger called South Korea etc all wear western formal suit and this includes Xi-jinping.

But then watch all the third rate, ex-slave colonies like Ghana, Nigeria, Togo, Senegal, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, UAE etc prancing around in their own "identities".

because the suck the west's cock and get paid off like the whore they are

 

[CatSultan]

Exactly. Remove all Islamic references from constitution and all laws and then start fresh.

GOOD LUCK. LMFAO