World highest suicide rate - Korea, Japan, Russia, India and others

[JUBA]

I don't agree with your first statement. The amount of man slaughter occurred in the name of different different gods is more then what chinese and soviets did.

Nope.

They did not do so in the name of atheism, they did it for the sake of communism. OTOH, many religious people take lives solely because of religious beliefs. BTW do you want to do an inventory accounting of the number of lives taken by religious people, and continue to be taken? Especially in your part of the world?.

Communism is the Atheist version of religion so all and all they did it for "Atheism".

Killing others is courage.

If it's in war then yes.

Killing yourself is cowardice ?

Yes.

So people who feel depressed and want to kill themselves should go out and buy a gun, rob a bank and try to die. If they succeed live a great life with the money you have stolen till the money runs out. Go out and rob a bank again .....and repeat this till you die ?

Cowards who want to kill themselves can simply kill themselves, they don't need to go out and rob banks, then that's considered robbery not suicide.

Did you ever bother to consider that decent people or the really good people choose to kill themselves than live in an unjust world. The truly evil people or the bad people chose to kill others to make the world a better place for himself.

They are cowards because they couldn't take it in this "unjust world. while billions still continue to live their lives, also the absent of God in their lives is a factor thus they choose to end their lives.

 

[kalanirnay]

Cowards who want to kill themselves can simply kill themselves, they don't need to go out and rob banks, then that's considered robbery not suicide.

You are too quick to judge. God forbid if you are in their shoes then ...........

They are cowards because they couldn't take it in this "unjust world. while billions still continue to live their lives, also the absent of God in their lives is a factor thus they choose to end their lives.

I agree with the 'god' part. A belief in a higher power helps us release our pressure and can allow hope to replace fear.

The high suicide rate in India, Russia etc. can certainly be attributed to their lack of faith in something bigger than themselves.

 

[janon]

Communism is the Atheist version of religion so all and all they did it for "Atheism".

Communism has many characteristics of a religion, that is true. A set of unquestionable dogmas, reverence of one or more people who are regarded as infallible, and so on. And atheism is one of their tenets.

But that does not mean that communism is a religious version of atheism. Far from it. It is perfectly possible to be an atheist and a libertarian, and atheist and a free market capitalist, an atheist and an objectivist, an atheist and a liberal. Atheism does not logically lead to communism or any other political or economic theory. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any god.

This very topic is about suicide rates in Japan and South Korea, among others. Surely you know that these are among the least communist countries in the world? Japan and South Korea are the model examples of free market economics and capitalism. Like many other religious people, you are trying to club together all the things you dislike into one big evil - so you started off condemning the societies of Japan and Korea for being atheistic, and then implied that atheism leads to communism, thereby negating your own premises, through what is called reductio ad absurdum.

The mass murders done by Soviet Union or communist China were done because of their totalitarianism and stupid economic beliefs like communism - not because of atheism. If the latter were true, Scandinavians and Japanese and South Koreans should also be raving mass murderers - they are not, and on the contrary, those are some of the most peaceful societies on earth. Also, the murders by communists who happened to be atheists is far overshadowed by murders done by other people who happened to be religious (from Ancient Romans to Gengis Khan to many others), not to mention the murders committed explicitly due to religious beliefs (from Nadir Shah to Aurangzeb to Sikandar Butshikan to ...).

In a nutshell : There is no logical extension from atheism to mass murder, although some atheists may have committed mass murder. But there is direct logical extension from many religious beliefs to mass murder.

If a person's religious beliefs tell him to kill all those who don't follow that religion, then there it is, those beliefs will cause him to kill others. But atheism is simply a lack of beliefs - there is no way to extrapolate from atheism to murder.

I agree with the 'god' part. A belief in a higher power helps us release our pressure and can allow hope to replace fear.

The high suicide rate in India, Russia etc. can certainly be attributed to their lack of faith in something bigger than themselves.

Most Indians are very religious people. Which contradicts your statement, and @JUBA 's attempt to bring atheism into it.

 

[kalanirnay]

Most Indians are very religious people. Which contradicts your statement, and @JUBA 's attempt to bring atheism into it.

Its a misconception, Hindus are not religious. They just think they are. Centuries of demonising Hinduism and Brahmanism has played its part in destroying the religious fabric of Hindus and wreaking available emotional support in societies.

Earlier Yogis, Guru's and Rishi's used to be the centres of emotional support. Brahmins used to dispense family wisdom. Today both are mocked and ridiculed and as a result on a minuscule amount of Hindus turn to them.............and in their absence suicide increases.

Sad but true.

 

[janon]

Its a misconception, Hindus are not religious. They just think they are. Centuries of demonising Hinduism and Brahmanism has played its part in destroying the religious fabric of Hindus and wreaking available emotional support in societies.

Earlier Yogis, Guru's and Rishi's used to be the centres of emotional support. Brahmins used to dispense family wisdom. Today both are mocked and ridiculed and as a result on a minuscule amount of Hindus turn to them.............and in their absence suicide increases.

Sad but true.

OK, so you think that people are not religious in the way you want them to be. That's all too common - I'm sure the person you were replying to thinks the same of you.

But the fact remains that most Indians a have religious beliefs (whether you agree with those or not), and definitely believe in a god. I'm pretty sure most poor farmers who kill themselves were not atheists.

 

[JUBA]

Communism has many characteristics of a religion, that is true. A set of unquestionable dogmas, reverence of one or more people who are regarded as infallible, and so on. And atheism is one of their tenets.

But that does not mean that communism is a religious version of atheism. Far from it. It is perfectly possible to be an atheist and a libertarian, and atheist and a free market capitalist, an atheist and an objectivist, an atheist and a liberal. Atheism does not logically lead to communism or any other political or economic theory. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any god.

This very topic is about suicide rates in Japan and South Korea, among others. Surely you know that these are among the least communist countries in the world? Japan and South Korea are the model examples of free market economics and capitalism. Like many other religious people, you are trying to club together all the things you dislike into one big evil - so you started off condemning the societies of Japan and Korea for being atheistic, and then implied that atheism leads to communism, thereby negating your own premises, through what is called reductio ad absurdum.

The mass murders done by Soviet Union or communist China were done because of their totalitarianism and stupid economic beliefs like communism - not because of atheism. If the latter were true, Scandinavians and Japanese and South Koreans should also be raving mass murderers - they are not, and on the contrary, those are some of the most peaceful societies on earth. Also, the murders by communists who happened to be atheists is far overshadowed by murders done by other people who happened to be religious (from Ancient Romans to Gengis Khan to many others), not to mention the murders committed explicitly due to religious beliefs (from Nadir Shah to Aurangzeb to Sikandar Butshikan to ...).

In a nutshell : There is no logical extension from atheism to mass murder, although some atheists may have committed mass murder. But there is direct logical extension from many religious beliefs to mass murder.

If a person's religious beliefs tell him to kill all those who don't follow that religion, then there it is, those beliefs will cause him to kill others. But atheism is simply a lack of beliefs - there is no way to extrapolate from atheism to murder.


Most Indians are very religious people. Which contradicts your statement, and @JUBA 's attempt to bring atheism into it.

Long story short: Killing for your religion that you truly believes in is better than killing for money, greed and power which is the Atheist mockup of religion. Also one should know that the Atheist have no problem in committing murder, there's no religion to stop him from doing that, the only thing stopping him is the fear of the punishment under the laws of the state he lives in, in the other hand you see lots of Atheists commit suicide cuz they believe there's no laws to punish them after death.

 

[janon]

Long story short: Killing for your religion that you truly believes in is better than killing for money, greed and power which is the Atheist mockup of religion. Also one should know that the Atheist have no problem in committing murder, there's no religion to stop him from doing that, the only thing stopping him is the fear of the punishment under the laws of the state he lives in, in the other hand you see lots of Atheists commit suicide cuz they believe there's no laws to punish them after death.

So you mean to say that you would gladly kill people, except for the fact that you think your god will punish you? Well then, people like you do need religion. For most sane people, it doesn't take religious fairytales to tell them that murder is bad. If there are people who desist from killing only because of religious beliefs, then its good to give them religious beliefs and convince them that the big spycam in the sky is watching them and will torture them later.

You might notice though, that even the most religious societies have very strict police and law courts. Including your own country. Somehow real world empirical observation suggests that religious beliefs don't prevent murder and crime, which is why civil institutions like police forces and law courts are necessary.

 

[JUBA]

So you mean to say that you would gladly kill people, except for the fact that you think your god will punish you?

Me ? Maybe depends on whom i'm killing, however i'm speaking generally here, if you have a country with a population of millions or billions like your country, then that country of yours won't be perfect, no country is, you'll always find corruption therefore people will get away with murder, maybe they think that the authorities won't be able to catch them and that's true, there's thousands of unsolved cases of murders in all countries out there so the justice was not served and the murderer got away with it, however in religion a murder has no chance of escaping, if he escaped in this life then he can't escape the afterlife, that's how it is thus a murderer will be less likely to commit a crime.

You might notice though, that even the most religious societies have very strict police and law courts. Including your own country. Somehow real world empirical observation suggests that religious beliefs don't prevent murder and crime, which is why civil institutions like police forces and law courts are necessary.

My country has Sharia Law, thus having one of lowest crime rates in the world.

 

[kalanirnay]

OK, so you think that people are not religious in the way you want them to be. That's all too common - I'm sure the person you were replying to thinks the same of you.

But the fact remains that most Indians a have religious beliefs (whether you agree with those or not), and definitely believe in a god. I'm pretty sure most poor farmers who kill themselves were not atheists.

LOL...what have I got to do with this ? its the religion that prescribes how they should be religious What a foolish argument.

They have vague religious beliefs which include worshipping statues of sai baba ..... most of who would not know anything of Hinduism except what they saw on TV. Sadly that same TV does not tell them how to cope with life and why not to commit suicide. But reading the Bhagwat Gita helps. Following religious customs and practices does, they exist for a reason.

Making a ganesh pandal, playing loud music, getting drunk is hardly Hindu religious practice. Its a social and cultural practice.

 

[janon]

LOL...what have I got to do with this ? its the religion that prescribes how they should be religious What a foolish argument.

They hare vague religious beliefs which include worshipping statues of sai baba ..... most of who would not know anything of Hinduism except what they saw on TV. Sadly that same TV does not tell them how to cope with life and why not to commit suicide. But reading the Bhagwat Gita helps. Following religious customs and practices does, they exist for a reason.

Making a ganesh pandal, playing loud music, getting drunk is hardly Hindu religious practice. Its a social and cultural practice.

The point is this: The conversation was about atheism leading to suicides, as juba alleged. That is why religion came into the discussion at all. Now your ideas about whether Indians follow religion properly or not is irrelevant - the only question of relevance is whether those people who committed suicide were atheists, or did they believe in a god. And you know as well as I do, that most Indians are not atheists and do believe in a god. That's all that matters to this particular discussion - whether they had a belief in a god or not.

My country has Sharia Law, thus having one of lowest crime rates in the world.

And also the lowest personal freedom. It is easy to claim low crime rate when everybody is shackled - in a prison, crime rate is generally low. Besides, your country is very small in a sense - all the population is concentrated in a few urban centers, and the total population is not too big, and the country is very rich, so can afford a lot of policing per population. Singapore is also in a similar situation, and has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, although they have no sharia law.

The point is that, as I hinted before, it is policing and legal systems that keep crimes in check, not religious beliefs. As I told you before, the Scandinavian countries have very, very low crime rates as well, and they are some of the most atheistic societies on the planet. Sudan and Pakistan and Somalia are some of the most religious places, and also the most crime ridden. Religion has not helped curb crime, but lack of effective policing surely has contributed to the crime rate.

If you look around the world, you will see the fact that it is effective policing that keeps crime rates low, not religious beliefs.

 

[janon]

Me ? Maybe depends on whom i'm killing, however i'm speaking generally here, if you have a country with a population of millions or billions like your country, then that country of yours won't be perfect, no country is, you'll always find corruption therefore people will get away with murder, maybe they think that the authorities won't be able to catch them and that's true, there's thousands of unsolved cases of murders in all countries out there so the justice was not served and the murderer got away with it, however in religion a murder has no chance of escaping, if he escaped in this life then he can't escape the afterlife, that's how it is thus a murderer will be less likely to commit a crime.

Again, your beliefs are not borne out by empirical evidence. Most atheistic societies are very peaceful, and many religious societies are crime ridden. That is an inescapable fact.

Now your contention that a non religious person will commit crimes because they have no fear of a hell is a typical belief that many religious people mistakenly have. When the atheist Penn Jillette was asked what stops him from raping and murdering as many people as he wants, his answer was simple: "I do rape and murder as many people as I want, and the number for both is zero."

Most people will not go around committing heinous crimes, whether or not a god is watching. Some people will do crimes, whether or not they think a god is watching. It's that simple. And that is why every society has police forces and law courts. You boast that your country has sharia law - but note that that law has to be enforced by the police and judiciary. Being religious alone doesn't prevent crime. Most people in your country are highly religious, but you still need a very strong police force and harsh laws. In general, the most religious societies have the harshest punishments for crime. Which means that people's belief in a god is not what prevents crime.

@Ravi Nair : Being the poster boy for Indian atheists, would you like to chip in? Are there other atheists or non religious people who can try to explain my points better to juba? @Dillinger ? @Indischer?

 

[kalanirnay]

The point is this: The conversation was about atheism leading to suicides, as juba alleged. That is why religion came into the discussion at all. Now your ideas about whether Indians follow religion properly or not is irrelevant - the only question of relevance is whether those people who committed suicide were atheists, or did they believe in a god. And you know as well as I do, that most Indians are not atheists and do believe in a god. That's all that matters to this particular discussion - whether they had a belief in a god or not.

That was YOUR argument not mine, and subscribing it to me makes it a strawman.

For all practical matters people who committed suicide were Atheists. Their link with religion would have been minimal or non existent. Their world was a much smaller one and the problems that they saw in that small world looked huge.

When you have faith your world becomes much larger and your problems appear that much smaller. People get depressed when they feel unloved, when they feel they have no one to turn too. When they feel all alone with no one to share their burden.

Religion offers you a relief from that thought. It tells you that you are not alone and that your problems will get over soon. It provides an escape route.

 

[jammersat]

You are not the only one whose life sucks but it sure does feels lonely.
Life sucks but the good news that it ends, so be optimistic

well , thanks for your heartwarming wisdom

 

[janon]

For all practical matters people who committed suicide were Atheists. Their link with religion would have been minimal or non existent. Their world was a much smaller one and the problems that they saw in that small world looked huge.

Ah, the good old "no true scotsman" fallacy. "They can't be believers, because a true believer would never..."

"Taliban people are not muslims, because a muslim would never..."

"The Mumbai murderers of 26/11 were atheists, because believers would never..."

"The people who flew planes into buildings were not really muslims because..."

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No true Scotsman fallacy - Iron Chariots Wiki
No True Scotsman - RationalWiki
Fallacies of Ambiguity: The No True Scotsman Fallacy

If you define religion as a thing who's followers can never do any wrong, then of course anybody who ever does a wrong becomes an atheist by definition. The inconvenient truth however, is that religious people also do many things you would disapprove of. In all probability, they do so to a greater extent than atheists, who think about these matters rather than simply trying to belong to a certain club.

Cross your heart and answer this honestly - do you think the impoverished farmers who committed suicide were atheists who disbelieved in any gods or deities? Or were they run of the mill people who believe in a god, like most Indians? Your semantic gymnastic of "atheists for practical purposes" is disingenuous - a person is either an atheist, or is not. ie, s/he either believes in a god or s/he does not. There is no theoretical and practical here.

People get depressed when they feel unloved, when they feel they have no one to turn too. When they feel all alone with no one to share their burden.

Most atheists do not feel unloved or depressed.

 

[kalanirnay]

Ah, the good old "no true scotsman" fallacy. "They can't be believers, because a true believer would never..."

"Taliban people are not muslims, because a muslim would never..."

"The Mumbai murderers of 26/11 were atheists, because believers would never..."

"The people who flew planes into buildings were not really muslims because..."

If you define religion as a thing who's followers can never do any wrong, then of course anybody who ever does a wrong becomes an atheist by definition. The inconvenient truth however, is that religious people also do many things you would disapprove of. In all probability, they do so to a greater extent than atheists, who think about these matters rather than simply trying to belong to a certain club.

Cross your heart and answer this honestly - do you think the impoverished farmers who committed suicide were atheists who disbelieved in any gods or deities? Or were they run of the mill people who believe in a god, like most Indians? Your semantic gymnastic of "atheists for practical purposes" is disingenuous - a person is either an atheist, or is not. ie, s/he either believes in a god or s/he does not. There is no theoretical and practical here.

You make a good argument but a poor point.

We are discussing a very narrow topic of suicide and my argument were specific to that incidence.

There are scientific studies done at Columbia University that have shown that those at the highest risk for depression were because they were the child of a depressed parent (that genetic and environmental connection that’s important for determining depression risk) and they had the biggest reduction in risk due to their spirituality or religious nature.

A follow up study on the same group also showed that spirituality or religion appears to have a protective effect against primarily the recurrence of depression. In some, it may also protect against the onset of depression. This effect was strongest in those whose one or more parents also suffered from depression.

Now cross your heart and tell me that the poor of India do not have depressed parents ? or depressed neighbours ? or a generally depressing environment ?

Most atheists do not feel unloved or depressed.

Gross generalization, Now this is the true "no true scotsman" fallacy.