World highest suicide rate - Korea, Japan, Russia, India and others

[janon]

If you look at it from a neutral view you'll find both religion and state laws are nothing but laws, the only difference is that religious laws are more efficient than state laws because there's no escape from it in the afterlife unlike state laws when you can simply bribe a judge, God won't accept your bribe, hance religious people commit less crimes, as i stated above in my statistic. so my point still stands, religion prevent people from committing crimes.

You are working backword from the conclusion to the premise. You are trying to find reasons why an atheist would be more crime prone than a religious person, without first checking whether that is in fact true. In the USA, 76% of the prison population are christian and 98% are religious, and less than 0.1 percent are atheists, although in their society only 8% are atheists. Similar figures have been found in any country that has compiled such statistics. The number of atheistic criminals are far lower than the religious ones. You can find these stats for yourself if you google "america prisons atheist", or some such combination - assuming that the results are not censored by your very religious government, who think they know what is best for you to see than you do.

 

[JUBA]

Sigh. Now you are really being dense. I cannot forever continue pointing out the glaring fallacies of reason that you are committing. I have made my point, and the real data is out there for anybody to see.

Also, as I said before, if the only reason that somebody is not doing heinous crimes is because he fears that the great dictator in the sky may torture him after death, then let that person have religious beliefs, it is better that way for humanity. If you are on of those people who would do criminal acts if you thought there was no hell, then I really pity you. Some of us have a superior sense of morality, and will not commit crimes whether or not the spycam is watching all our moves. These simplistic fairytales of eternal rewards for good behaviour and eternal torture for bad behaviour may be necessary for shallow people.

Nietzsche very astutely observed that such beliefs are made up by people who feel powerless. People who see their tormentors getting away with it, find solace in believing that a god would some day punish their tormentors with fire and brimstone and other nasty tortures, while he himself would be given candy and sweets in heaven. Powerless to wreak vengeance in reality, they soothe themselves with visions of another world to come.

Please watch this video about the superiority of secular morality over religious ones:

My data is from the United Nation your data is anonymous, there's no point in arguing in something crystal clear like this, religion indeed play a huge role in preventing crimes and giving morals, unlike Atheists religious people morals don't change through time, Atheists morals are linked with culture and state laws and can change easily, if tomorrow some states legalize rape, murder and theft you'll find atheists doing it since there's no power to stop them. by claiming that religion don't prevent crime and preserve morals you're going against logic, accept it the truth and don't try to deny it even if it's against what you believe in.

 

[janon]

religious people morals don't change through time

They do. In the 1700s and 1800s, most religious organization in the USA advocated slavery, and quoted the bible to support their views. (And yes, the bible has many verses supporting slavery.) Secular reasoning had to drag those people, kicking and screaming, into the new worldview that no human should own another. Most slavery supporters were devout christians, and many abolitionists were secular, like RG Ingersoll. But today of course, every christian would say that slavery is evil.

So yes, religious morality does change. It is reason and freethought that argues whether something is moral or not, and then religions have to be forced to accept it. That's how it has always been.

BTW, please read the 'euthyphro dilemma' - that immediately explains why morality is always arrived at through reason, not because a god told so.

 

[JUBA]

You are working backword from the conclusion to the premise. You are trying to find reasons why an atheist would be more crime prone than a religious person

I'm not trying to find reasons, it's well known that a person without morals and a higher power to judge him is more likely to commit crimes, only a brainwashed person will think otherwise.

PS: i'd like you to provide with a statistic to that person
population theory of yours.

btw most people turn to religion after going to person, also Atheists population in the US and worldwide are not that high, they are insignificant in numbers so basing your judging by the number of prisoners in a majority Christian state is not really a solid ground for you.

They do. In the 1700s and 1800s, most religious organization in the USA advocated slavery, and quoted the bible to support their views. (And yes, the bible has many verses supporting slavery.) Secular reasoning had to drag those people, kicking and screaming, into the new worldview that no human should own another. Most slavery supporters were devout christians, and many abolitionists were secular, like RG Ingersoll. But today of course, every christian would say that slavery is evil.

So yes, religious morality does change. It is reason and freethought that argues whether something is moral or not, and then religions have to be forced to accept it. That's how it has always been.

BTW, please read the 'euthyphro dilemma' - that immediately explains why morality is always arrived at through reason, not because a god told so.

The bible is a corrupt book with many versions of it, if you want to base your morality test on a religion then do it on the true religion, Islam.

 

[JUBA]

@JUBA
According to ur logic its athiest who commit suicide and religious people rarely commit suicide ...If thats your logic then animals seems to be more religious then religious people since they wont commit suicide ..

 

[zip]

I havent gone through all ur posts but i noticed that you tried to mix religion with no of suicides if thats true then you should worry about that poor logical reasoning of yours dear ...

 

[Indrani]

That was a serious question considering your suicidal tendencies. I have no idea how prisons in iran operate, so I am not quite sure where you could be raped, in the bus or jail.

I am encouraging you to live and not to die, and you think something is wrong with me ?

He has schizophrenia.

 

[Indrani]

Now cross your heart and tell me that the poor of India do not have depressed parents ? or depressed neighbours ? or a generally depressing environment ?

This is wrong belief that the poor of India are depressed or have a depressing environment. Most people are not.

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

Islamic World has the least amount of suicides amongst other civilizations such as China, Western World, India, and even South America.

Even though Muslim countries are going through worst, there are still less suicides. Very interesting.

 

[Indrani]

A youtube video from a muslim evangelical who calls himself "theproudmuslim"? Gee, I wonder why his "data" supports his conclusion. Let me guess - he is also a muslim, right? Surprise, surprise!

Please look at real world facts, instead of personal videos put up by people clearly advocating a specific viewpoint. Learn and understand what objectivity and neutrality mean.

Countries Compared by Crime > Total crimes per 1000. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Saudi Arabia, even with all the advantages of being rich, populations concentrated in some urban centers etc, ranks #71. In the top ten countries with lowest crime rates, most of them are very irreligious. Heck, even the top 20 are very irreligious. Places like Denmark, Finland, New Zealand, Australia, Norway, Sweden, France all stand as conspicuous counters to your notion that religion prevents crime.

You will have to resign yourself to this fact sooner or later - being religious never prevented criminality, and in fact empirically, only exacerbates it. Atheistic societies tend to be much more peaceful and tolerant and liveable.

The link you gave actually presents the opposite. Saudi Arabia at 71 has a crime rate of 3.88 per 1000 population whereas the top most countries like Iceland and Sweden start at 209 and 138 per 1000 population.

 

[JUBA]

The link you gave actually presents the opposite. Saudi Arabia at 71 has a crime rate of 3.88 per 1000 population whereas the top most countries like Iceland and Sweden start at 209 and 138 per 1000 population.

Didn't notice that, now that's an embarrassing fail for him

 

[Chronos]

Again, your beliefs are not borne out by empirical evidence. Most atheistic societies are very peaceful, and many religious societies are crime ridden. That is an inescapable fact.

Now your contention that a non religious person will commit crimes because they have no fear of a hell is a typical belief that many religious people mistakenly have. When the atheist Penn Jillette was asked what stops him from raping and murdering as many people as he wants, his answer was simple: "I do rape and murder as many people as I want, and the number for both is zero."

Most people will not go around committing heinous crimes, whether or not a god is watching. Some people will do crimes, whether or not they think a god is watching. It's that simple. And that is why every society has police forces and law courts. You boast that your country has sharia law - but note that that law has to be enforced by the police and judiciary. Being religious alone doesn't prevent crime. Most people in your country are highly religious, but you still need a very strong police force and harsh laws. In general, the most religious societies have the harshest punishments for crime. Which means that people's belief in a god is not what prevents crime.

@Ravi Nair : Being the poster boy for Indian atheists, would you like to chip in? Are there other atheists or non religious people who can try to explain my points better to juba? @Dillinger ? @Indischer?

I think it is a bit like the chicken and egg argument. Does religion cause crimes? Or is it because of the despair in those societies that cause people to turn to religion?

A lot of western countries including the country that I live in New Zealand have turned increasingly agnostic because of the comforts that they live in, more leisure time more education and overall more prosperity.

The so called agnostic or atheistic societies are overall more pleasant, peaceful prosperous places to live in.

 

[Okemos]

I think it is a bit like the chicken and egg argument. Does religion cause crimes? Or is it because of the despair in those societies that cause people to turn to religion?

A lot of western countries including the country that I live in New Zealand have turned increasingly agnostic because of the comforts that they live in, more leisure time more education and overall more prosperity.

The so called agnostic or atheistic societies are overall more pleasant, peaceful prosperous places to live in.

Probably because Abrahamic religions created "we are holier than though" illusion and started "differentiating" people based on personal belief system. When this belief system accumulates enough clout of man power, it will start to judge people of different beliefs as outsiders, or even outcast. Such differentiating practices create lots of pressure on ordinary people to fit in, even despite of their doubts. A society that constantly judges people based on personal belief and pressuring people to disregard their rational thought and just fit in for the sake of not being an outcast of course will have conflicts, especially in modern society when communication of different ideas is much easier than ever before.

 

[Chronos]

Probably because Abrahamic religions created "we are holier than though" illusion and started "differentiating" people based on personal belief system. When this belief system accumulates enough clout of man power, it will start to judge people of different beliefs as outsiders, or even outcast. Such differentiating practices create lots of pressure on ordinary people to fit in, even despite of their doubts. A society that constantly judges people based on personal belief and pressuring people to disregard their rational thought and just fit in for the sake of not being an outcast of course will have conflicts, especially in modern society when communication of different ideas is much easier than ever before.

you have explained it much better than I have.
@janon

 

[janon]

The link you gave actually presents the opposite. Saudi Arabia at 71 has a crime rate of 3.88 per 1000 population whereas the top most countries like Iceland and Sweden start at 209 and 138 per 1000 population.

Didn't notice that, now that's an embarrassing fail for him

Actually that link was to something entirely different. If you had read the note on top (I didn't either) you would have realized that it is about crime reporting rate, not the prevalence of actual crime. And they specifically state that more reporting is an indicator of better policing. That also explains why India is ranked at the bottom - not because crime rate is low, but because reporting is. Here is the quote from that website:

DEFINITION:Note: Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to reportcrime, than actual prevalence. Figures expressed per thousand population for the same year.

Here is the proper measure of crime and peace:

Global Peace Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will find that my point is valid. No @JUBA, it is not an "embarassing fail" for me. It is true that Scandinavian countries and other atheistic places have lower rates of crime. Other than North Korea, all the countries with most crime are highly religious. All the countries with low crime rates are very irreligious.