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Talk about today... They are still supplying RD-93s, despite India's objection - mind you despite their own potential losses in the long term.

The RD-93 engine for the FC-1 has very interesting implications for the Indo-Russia relationship. Was it a diplomatic victory for China and Pakistan or quite the opposite? The entire rational for Pakistan going for the RD-93 is that they could not depend on American F-16s as they were prone to sanctions. The JF-17 was touted as a much more dependable and cheaper sanction proof alternative. But all of that seems to have gone down the drain with the use of the Russian RD-93 engine in the platform. Was the entire episode a diplomatic loss for India or did Delhi actually think that the deal could be used to India's advantage at a later point.

The entire quagmire hinges on the replacement of engines and maintenance during times of crisis. The first thing to note is that jet engines are not as dependable as a layman would think. The Rd-93 engine has a serviceable life of just around 2000 hours and is much more prone to burning out compared to Western engines. The most likely tactic used by Pakistani pilots against numerically and technically superior Indian fighters would be bait and run. But in the process of "running" the Russian engines might be pushed to the limits and would have to be replaced before the Jet can be used again. Now comes the real problem; will Russia allow huge quantities of the engine to be exported to Pakistan or China during times of crisis with India? Even now the engine is only being purchased by China in limited quantities and will not account for spares in the long run.

Of course the standard retort to any such questions will be the use of a Chinese engine whenever such a situation arises. But then, that also has it's own issues. The WS-9 and the WP-14 are out of the question, which only leaves the WS-13 which is specifically developed for the FC-1. But the failure of the Chinese to develop a reliable jet engine is well known and the WS-13 has just started flying according to some accounts. Even western manufacturers with decades of experience take at least 10 years to flight test an engine till it is considered mature enough to be used in serial production aircraft. Will the Chinese managed to do so in the same time frame and more importantly, will the engine be a reasonable replacement for the RD-93. Not to mention that re-engining the JF-17 is not simply a matter of taking out the old engine, putting in a different one and connecting all the wires. China would be able to adapt another engine for the FC-1 without much trouble, but Pakistani technicians will face serious issues if they attempt to do this by themselves with a different engine.

Another question that comes to mind is whether the Chinese will be willing to spend a huge amount of money on the WS-13 when the engine might not have any role in the PLAAF's future fighters. If the FC-1 does not garner a significant export market, will the Chinese spend a considerable amount of their own money just to ensure that the Pakistani's are not dependent on the Russian engine? And of course in the worst case scenario of Sino-Pakistani relations souring, the JF-17 may become a white elephant and the Pakistani air-force will be instantaneously crippled.

In it's attempt to insulate itself from US technology sanctions, did Pakistan just jump from the frying pan into the fire? Will the Russian engine be the Achilles heel of the Pakistan's ambitious JF-17 program? If the Chinese miraculously manage to perfect the WS-13 in a short time-frame and transfer the technology to Pakistan, then it would not be an issue. However, if this does not happen, the Indians and the Russians might just have the last laugh.
 
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i dont understand why every one thinking abt india-china war in future...

we are not hearing any single bullet firing across the india-china border unlike it is happening almost every day in other side...

and india-china financial relations is increasing day by day...

and am really looking forward to see BRIC

Anti china policy and continue provokation in the borders will result in another war just like 1962 simple.
 
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Russia almost invaded you guys in 60s... because you guys ran into American camp against Soviets... :)

Untrue. China had to face military pressure from both the United States and the Soviet Union during the 60s. Just prior to the Zhenbao Island conflicts the Chinese were one of the greatest allies of the North Vietnamese and provided large numbers of anti-aircraft units during the Vietnam War. China and the U.S. didn't formally establish ties until the late 1970s and there was no military cooperation until the 80s.
 
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there is no doubut russia is true friend but what about agaisnt china

why russia is not using the same line against china
 
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But the failure of the Chinese to develop a reliable jet engine is well known and the WS-13 has just started flying according to some accounts.
As of 2010, WS-13 is in flight testing on the JF-17. JF-17 with WS-13 should be in serial production within 2 years, I think.

In 2010 China started mass producing its own indigenous flankers with the indigenous FWS-10 engines. Today, China has full capability to produce modern turbofan, turboprop and gas turbine engines. This was all demonstrated at Zhuhai Airshow 2010.

It's not a "miracle." It's just natural effect of 1.2 billion smart and hard-working Chinese people with 3 decades of two-digit GDP growth.
 
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there is no doubut russia is true friend but what about agaisnt china

why russia is not using the same line against china
Russia is not going to support India in a war against China! Maybe they will give some encouraging words but they won't be directly involved.

It would be interesting if Russia started to support Pakistan against India. There is no hostility between Russia and Pakistan. The two countries can work together on Afghanistan. Then, you would have both China and Russia supporting Pakistan in a war against India, who is supported by the US. The most powerful nuclear states in the world (China, USA, Russia, India, Pakistan) all fighting for Kashmir :chilli:
 
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The RD-93 engine for the FC-1 has very interesting implications for the Indo-Russia relationship. Was it a diplomatic victory for China and Pakistan or quite the opposite? The entire rational for Pakistan going for the RD-93 is that they could not depend on American F-16s as they were prone to sanctions. The JF-17 was touted as a much more dependable and cheaper sanction proof alternative. But all of that seems to have gone down the drain with the use of the Russian RD-93 engine in the platform. Was the entire episode a diplomatic loss for India or did Delhi actually think that the deal could be used to India's advantage at a later point.

The entire quagmire hinges on the replacement of engines and maintenance during times of crisis. The first thing to note is that jet engines are not as dependable as a layman would think. The Rd-93 engine has a serviceable life of just around 2000 hours and is much more prone to burning out compared to Western engines. The most likely tactic used by Pakistani pilots against numerically and technically superior Indian fighters would be bait and run. But in the process of "running" the Russian engines might be pushed to the limits and would have to be replaced before the Jet can be used again. Now comes the real problem; will Russia allow huge quantities of the engine to be exported to Pakistan or China during times of crisis with India? Even now the engine is only being purchased by China in limited quantities and will not account for spares in the long run.

Of course the standard retort to any such questions will be the use of a Chinese engine whenever such a situation arises. But then, that also has it's own issues. The WS-9 and the WP-14 are out of the question, which only leaves the WS-13 which is specifically developed for the FC-1. But the failure of the Chinese to develop a reliable jet engine is well known and the WS-13 has just started flying according to some accounts. Even western manufacturers with decades of experience take at least 10 years to flight test an engine till it is considered mature enough to be used in serial production aircraft. Will the Chinese managed to do so in the same time frame and more importantly, will the engine be a reasonable replacement for the RD-93. Not to mention that re-engining the JF-17 is not simply a matter of taking out the old engine, putting in a different one and connecting all the wires. China would be able to adapt another engine for the FC-1 without much trouble, but Pakistani technicians will face serious issues if they attempt to do this by themselves with a different engine.

Another question that comes to mind is whether the Chinese will be willing to spend a huge amount of money on the WS-13 when the engine might not have any role in the PLAAF's future fighters. If the FC-1 does not garner a significant export market, will the Chinese spend a considerable amount of their own money just to ensure that the Pakistani's are not dependent on the Russian engine? And of course in the worst case scenario of Sino-Pakistani relations souring, the JF-17 may become a white elephant and the Pakistani air-force will be instantaneously crippled.

In it's attempt to insulate itself from US technology sanctions, did Pakistan just jump from the frying pan into the fire? Will the Russian engine be the Achilles heel of the Pakistan's ambitious JF-17 program? If the Chinese miraculously manage to perfect the WS-13 in a short time-frame and transfer the technology to Pakistan, then it would not be an issue. However, if this does not happen, the Indians and the Russians might just have the last laugh.

States the facts. thanks for posting.:cheers::cheers:
 
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quite franly we do not form war policies depending on help from allies or pseudo allies....russia hs been a great partner...though...
Pakistan otoh desperately needs and seeks Chinese support to express it's will...something it might have trouble doing on it's own...
Pakistanis on this forum seems to praise China more than even their own country...!
 
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LOL, so what happened during 1962?

Russia, being an ally of both India and China, stayed out of it. Just like all the other wars that India has fought.

What happened in 1971 ?
You seem to have overlooked Leonid Brezhnev and his role.
 
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Russia is not going to support India in a war against China! Maybe they will give some encouraging words but they won't be directly involved.

It would be interesting if Russia started to support Pakistan against India. There is no hostility between Russia and Pakistan. The two countries can work together on Afghanistan. Then, you would have both China and Russia supporting Pakistan in a war against India, who is supported by the US. The most powerful nuclear states in the world (China, USA, Russia, India, Pakistan) all fighting for Kashmir :chilli:
:lol::lol:

Wat about N.korea and Bangladesh and srilanka..
 
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Who says we'd need China to defend ourselves from Indian trash talk fights?

Did we ask China to intervene in 1999, 2002, 2008 standoffs? That is another thing China hurried its supply of 250 F-7Pgs in 2002 when war seemed imminent.

Dude you must be aware of the rapid modernization that India has undergone in the last decade.
That since the last war in 1999.
You can't compare Pakistan's growth to India's in the last decade.
You had a terrible time whilst we enjoyed a prosperous growth.
You can't stand against India without help from China.
 
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Russia is not going to support India in a war against China! Maybe they will give some encouraging words but they won't be directly involved.

It would be interesting if Russia started to support Pakistan against India. There is no hostility between Russia and Pakistan. The two countries can work together on Afghanistan. Then, you would have both China and Russia supporting Pakistan in a war against India, who is supported by the US. The most powerful nuclear states in the world (China, USA, Russia, India, Pakistan) all fighting for Kashmir :chilli:

Nursery admissions are expected to be opened by January first week.
You joined too early.
 
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