Will India ever mount an operation to capture Dawood Ibrahim?

[timetravel]

And yet again, you've just repeated the same thing that's already been mentioned (and disproven) multiple times.

WOT is on the same people whom Pakistan nurtured. So if Pakistan had not nurtured them, there would be no need for WOT.

Pakistan ended up paying first for Nurturing and Training them, and then fighting against the same. Loss on both sides.

the Terrorists tried to chew more then they could swallow, when they attacked America.

 

[timetravel]

1 and 3 I agree with, there is no argument there. 2 is where I not only disagree, I refute it entirely. While it is true that Pakistan supported militant groups in Kashmir at the behest of the military, the insurgency in Indian-administrated Kashmir no longer gets any financial or military support, simply because Pakistan wants to improve relations with India.

By the way, I'd like to point out that supporting an insurgency doesn't actually cost much money.

On the second point. There may not be support for insurgency right now if you say so. But supporting and training them did cost Pakistan a lot of money and is still costing your economy in terms of WOT.

I would be only happy if Pakistan Govt. indeed stops all financial and moral support for such groups even now. But when we look at statements coming from Pakistan where they say, they are waiting for US to withdraw from Afghanistan and once again the Taliban and the extremists would sweep over Afghanistan and create more troubles in Kashmir, then it looks like Pakistan is not in a position or has still not realized the harm caused by these people to its economy. Pakistan still seems to support and nurture them?

 

[Kaalapani]

He will become a big liability for them in future.

 

[That Guy]

WOT is on the same people whom Pakistan nurtured. So if Pakistan had not nurtured them, there would be no need for WOT.

Pakistan ended up paying first for Nurturing and Training them, and then fighting against the same. Loss on both sides.

the Terrorists tried to chew more then they could swallow, when they attacked America.

Again, repeating disproven and completely false claims.

 

[That Guy]

On the second point. There may not be support for insurgency right now if you say so. But supporting and training them did cost Pakistan a lot of money and is still costing your economy in terms of WOT.

I would be only happy if Pakistan Govt. indeed stops all financial and moral support for such groups even now. But when we look at statements coming from Pakistan where they say, they are waiting for US to withdraw from Afghanistan and once again the Taliban and the extremists would sweep over Afghanistan and create more troubles in Kashmir, then it looks like Pakistan is not in a position or has still not realized the harm caused by these people to its economy. Pakistan still seems to support and nurture them?

WOT in Kashmir has little affect on Pakistan's economy, it's fighting the Taliban on the western border that the problem.

Pakistan is fearful of a taliban return to power, because it'll imbolden the insurgents in Pakistan. The GoP is simply stating it's fears, it has no desire to see a return of the taliban.

This seems to be a common misinterpretation on the part of India towards Pakistan's Afghan policy.

 

[timetravel]

Again, repeating disproven and completely false claims.

what is your view then on WOT? Who created and supported Al Queda and Taliban and why should Pakistan fight them on behalf of USA, if they are not created by Pakistan?

 

[timetravel]

WOT in Kashmir has little affect on Pakistan's economy, it's fighting the Taliban on the western border that the problem.

Pakistan is fearful of a taliban return to power, because it'll imbolden the insurgents in Pakistan. The GoP is simply stating it's fears, it has no desire to see a return of the taliban.

This seems to be a common misinterpretation on the part of India towards Pakistan's Afghan policy.

But on this very forum, you can see many Pak posters echoing the view that once US withdraws from Afghanistan, then Pakistan would again conquer Afghanistan with support from Taliban. So in that sense, its only a waiting period before Pakistan pushes Taliban back into Afghanistan. Whom to believe?

Also I am quoting your previous post where you said WOT has affected Pakistan economy badly.
WOT never included Kashmir. Its related to the other areas within and on the borders Pakistan. So WOT (not including Kashmir insurgency) has indeed affected Pakistan economy much. I want to bring your attention to the point, that this WOT would not have been required if Pakistan had not supported those militants on the first place.

Also there is no different militants in operation here. Militants belonging to Al Queda and Taliban and other groups are active both in Kashmir and elsewhere. They are the same militants and belong to same groups. So nurturing them for Kashmir or Afghanistan is same thing. But ultimately they got over confident and planned strikes on US also. This led to the WOT and affected Pakistan economy.

I was with you in the beginning and agreeing with what you were saying, and then you went nationalistic on me.

Pakistan's economy hasn't been destroyed because of an extremist culture, that's not only false, it's also an extremist simple and narrow minded view point.

Pakistan's economy has been destroyed because of the war on terror that Pakistan has had to suffer from. By helping the US and it's allies in Afghanistan, it has become a target for extremists and militants for suicide bombings and murders. The war efforts against militants has cost Pakistan over 100 billion dollars, and on top of all that, the last 5 years of the Zardari government have been the most corrupt in Pakistan's history, which has cost Pakistan even more.

I think it's foolish to ignore these simple facts, and simply blame the lowest common denominator.

 

[That Guy]

what is your view then on WOT? Who created and supported Al Queda and Taliban and why should Pakistan fight them on behalf of USA, if they are not created by Pakistan?

Al-Qaeda was created by Saudi Islamists, including Bin Laden, it was funded by Saudis and trained by Saudis. The funny thing is, Bin Laden was invited to Afghanistan by the Northern Alliance, India's allies, to fight the Taliban, but Bin Laden ended up switching sides after meeting with Mullah Omar.

Taliban is a creation of Pashtun nationalists, they were created before Pakistan even knew about them. After they started making gains in Afghanistan, Pakistan looked at them and thought that the Taliban was the only way to end the civil war in Afghanistan, and technically, the Pakistani establishment was right.

People have this illusion that the Northern Alliances was a group of freedom fighters, who opposed the Taliban and were united in their cause...This is false. The NA was a loosely knit group of warlords and drug mafia, who were infighting before the rise of the Taliban. They caused Afghanistan to fall in a state of civil war in Afghanistan, and the Pashtun population got sick of it. The Taliban was formed to drive out these warlords and restore order. They succeeded in the most part, which got Pakistan's attention. Pakistan had been dealing with millions of Afghan refugees, because of the civil war, and needed to find a solution in Afghanistan. Seeing the Taliban making massive gains, Pakistan started supporting them and helped them gain control of 90% of the country. If 9/11 didn't happen and the US didn't invade, Afghanistan's civil war would have ended by now, but that's another point altogether.

Why is Pakistan suffering from the war of terror? Because Pakistan switched sides, when the US threatened to bomb Pakistan. By allowing the US to use it's sea-ports and use it's transit system for slightly more than free, Pakistan suffered heavily economical losses. The Taliban thought of this as a betrayal and started targeting Pakistan, which added to the problem. Then in 2008, Pakistan ended up gaining the most corrupt government in history, which nearly destroyed Pakistan's economy.

Again, simply saying that Pakistan created these problems is simple-minded and ignore's facts. Indian media would have you believe that Pakistan is an exporter of global terrorism, just like Pakistan would have you believe that India wants nothing more than to invade Pakistan and convert or killed every Muslim in the region.

We both know that this is false.

 

[timetravel]

Al-Qaeda was created by Saudi Islamists, including Bin Laden, it was funded by Saudis and trained by Saudis. The funny thing is, Bin Laden was invited to Afghanistan by the Northern Alliance, India's allies, to fight the Taliban, but Bin Laden ended up switching sides after meeting with Mullah Omar.

Taliban is a creation of Pashtun nationalists, they were created before Pakistan even knew about them. After they started making gains in Afghanistan, Pakistan looked at them and thought that the Taliban was the only way to end the civil war in Afghanistan, and technically, the Pakistani establishment was right.

People have this illusion that the Northern Alliances was a group of freedom fighters, who opposed the Taliban and were united in their cause...This is false. The NA was a loosely knit group of warlords and drug mafia, who were infighting before the rise of the Taliban. They caused Afghanistan to fall in a state of civil war in Afghanistan, and the Pashtun population got sick of it. The Taliban was formed to drive out these warlords and restore order. They succeeded in the most part, which got Pakistan's attention. Pakistan had been dealing with millions of Afghan refugees, because of the civil war, and needed to find a solution in Afghanistan. Seeing the Taliban making massive gains, Pakistan started supporting them and helped them gain control of 90% of the country. If 9/11 didn't happen and the US didn't invade, Afghanistan's civil war would have ended by now, but that's another point altogether.

Why is Pakistan suffering from the war of terror? Because Pakistan switched sides, when the US threatened to bomb Pakistan. By allowing the US to use it's sea-ports and use it's transit system for slightly more than free, Pakistan suffered heavily economical losses. The Taliban thought of this as a betrayal and started targeting Pakistan, which added to the problem. Then in 2008, Pakistan ended up gaining the most corrupt government in history, which nearly destroyed Pakistan's economy.

Again, simply saying that Pakistan created these problems is simple-minded and ignore's facts. Indian media would have you believe that Pakistan is an exporter of global terrorism, just like Pakistan would have you believe that India wants nothing more than to invade Pakistan and convert or killed every Muslim in the region.

We both know that this is false.

But you need to regard the fact that world over taliban and Al Queda are involved in Terrorist activities. Who started them is not that important. But Pakistan did house them in its own country and nurtured them and provided space to grow and recruit its people for Taliban and Al Queda. Saudi may have provided the funding but they did not nurture them on Saudi lands, but on Pakistan lands.

So Pakistan supported people like Taliban and AL Queda, when the whole world regarded them as Terrorists. In mu opinion Pakistan should not have supported or allowed them to grow in its country in any manner. But when they attacked USA, as you said Pakistan had to turn sides.

But then if Pakistan had not supported such Militant groups whose only purpose is to cause mayhem and are downright extremists in their approach, then there would be no need for Pakistan to turn against them i.e no need for WOT.

Regarding Al Queda and Taliban we can say, they started through Saudi and Afganistan, but they became the kids of Pakistan, who nurtured them and allowed them to set up bases and recruit people from Pakistan. And these people made it their aim to engage in terrorist activities across the world from US to India to Afghanistan to Europe.

All I hope is Pakistan realises that to acheive its strategic goals it should use diplomatic and economic means. but should not support anti humanity groups like Al Queda and Taliban. Even now if Pakistan leaves such groups totally it would be good for both Pakistan and world.

If Saudi wants to fund Al Queda still then I hope Pakistan leaders can tell Saudi to nurture them on Saudi lands and not on Pakistan soils. I bet Saudi will refuse to let Al Queda set camps in its own country, but would be more then willing to fund them on Pakistani lands. How come Pakistani leaders not oppose such obvious misuse of Pakistan?

 

[That Guy]

But on this very forum, you can see many Pak posters echoing the view that once US withdraws from Afghanistan, then Pakistan would again conquer Afghanistan with support from Taliban. So in that sense, its only a waiting period before Pakistan pushes Taliban back into Afghanistan. Whom to believe?

Also I am quoting your previous post where you said WOT has affected Pakistan economy badly.
WOT never included Kashmir. Its related to the other areas within and on the borders Pakistan. So WOT (not including Kashmir insurgency) has indeed affected Pakistan economy much. I want to bring your attention to the point, that this WOT would not have been required if Pakistan had not supported those militants on the first place.

Also there is no different militants in operation here. Militants belonging to Al Queda and Taliban and other groups are active both in Kashmir and elsewhere. They are the same militants and belong to same groups. So nurturing them for Kashmir or Afghanistan is same thing. But ultimately they got over confident and planned strikes on US also. This led to the WOT and affected Pakistan economy.

So you're basically saying "well your side said this, so this is what you believe"? That is a thought of a naive child.

WoT has affected Pakistan's economy, just not Kashmir, don't confuse the two.

On one hand, you're saying that Kashmir was never included in the war on terror, on the other, you're saying they were. That's contradictory statement. I suggest you be more clear.

9/11 was not a blunder by these terrorists, in fact, according to former CIA operative Michael Scheuer, Bin Laden was successful and everything the US did after 9/11, including the invasion of Afghanistan, was falling right into Bin Laden's trap.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

With the current crop of politicians that we have. NO WAY

 

[That Guy]

But you need to regard the fact that world over taliban and Al Queda are involved in Terrorist activities. Who started them is not that important. But Pakistan did house them in its own country and nurtured them and provided space to grow and recruit its people for Taliban and Al Queda. Saudi may have provided the funding but they did not nurture them on Saudi lands, but on Pakistan lands.

So Pakistan supported people like Taliban and AL Queda, when the whole world regarded them as Terrorists. In mu opinion Pakistan should not have supported or allowed them to grow in its country in any manner. But when they attacked USA, as you said Pakistan had to turn sides.

But then if Pakistan had not supported such Militant groups whose only purpose is to cause mayhem and are downright extremists in their approach, then there would be no need for Pakistan to turn against them i.e no need for WOT.

See, I have to disagree with you on this. It is important on how they started, because your first accusation was that Pakistan created Al-Qaeda and Taliban, so to simple say that it's unimportant is being dishonest.

You keep bringing up Al-Qaeda was nurtured by Pakistan, but that's not true. Al-Qaeda was nurtured by the Saudi militants in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda didn't exist in Pakistan and had no dealings with the organization, and in fact, Pakistan had requested (at the behest of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, in the late 90s) that Osama be extradited to Saudi Arabia to stand trial as an enemy of the state.

Taliban and Al-Qaeda are not the same organization, they're completely different. In fact, while Al-Qaeda is considered a terrorist organization by the US and the world, the Taliban have yet to be considered terrorists by the US and EU.

The rest of your comments, I've already answered and I will not repeat them again.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

By Anas Abbas

Ten years ago on a balmy, sunny day in Karachi, my father asked me to accompany him to a great seth’s house. People in Karachi sometimes gather at houses of major industrialists’ to see their impressive sacrificial animals, purchased for Bakra Eid.

I was only too eager to go to one such grand place which turned out to be at a distance of just two kilometres from my house. When we arrived, we found crowds of people gawking at expensive animals. As I took in the sights and sounds, the owner of the house came out, flanked by his guards and kids.

I wondered aloud who this intriguing man could be, my father chuckled: “He has many names. In India, he’s the most wanted man. And here some know him as Ibrahim Mushtaq and others call him Tiger Memon!”

Perhaps unsurprisingly, given my age, this didn’t mean a whole lot to me at that time. But it would soon change.

Not long after I left Pakistan, in pursuit of university education, I began studying the historic conflicts across the world, and became deeply interested in counter-terrorism and history, and started scrutinising various conflicts around the world.

Dawood soon crept back into my life. While debating politics with my cousin one day, I was shocked to discover that Tiger Memon’s son was his friend. They had studied together, it turned out, at Karachi’s prominent City School.

Indian terrorists, it became clear to me, had integrated well in Pakistan’s society.

When I went to Karachi next, I tried conducting my own investigation. I knew Tiger Memon’s house and had seen the state patronage he was living under, but I was more interested in the even bigger fish who was also said to be living in Karachi, and was the main accused in the 1993 Bombay blasts.

It didn’t take a lot of finding-out. Dawood Ibrahim, who featured among the top in Forbes list of most wanted dreaded criminals, was living openly in Clifton, Block 4, Karachi, near Café Flo, known as an elite hang-out. Last year when I visited Karachi, I asked my friends where Dawood Ibrahim lived and I was told time and again the same location.

When I went to that particular area, I observed containers had been put-up and the street was blockaded. People were frisked and IDs checked before one could be granted entry into the mansion. Pakistan Army Rangers patrolled the road.

I realised that Pakistani journalists weren’t very keen to chase up this fantastic story because they did not want to suffer the same fate as Daniel Pearl, Saleem Shehzad and Ghulam Hasnain.

Ghulam Hasnain wrote a wonderfully detailed account of Dawood’s lavish lifestyle in Karachi and Lahore. Subsequently, he was kidnapped and when he returned, he had suffered several fractures on his body.

American journalists do not write about him either, because they are not interested in Dawood Ibrahim. Also, America needs Pakistan to buttress its Afghan policy and support a peace deal with the Taliban. It is for this reason that the American government and media do not feel the need to pressurise Pakistan to stop supporting Dawood Ibrahim.

If India has any intentions of ever capturing Dawood Ibrahim and Tiger Memon—or other top terrorists, Maulana Masood Azhar and Hafiz Muhammad Saeed—it needs, first, to rid itself of the illusion that Pakistan’s criminal justice will help.

Take the example of Hafiz Saeed: Known throughout the world as a terrorist, at home he’s a television celebrity, represented as a pious man. Back in 2009, Saeed was acquitted of several terrorism-related charges by the Lahore High Court. The prosecution lawyer, Latif Khosa, convinced the judge that Saeed had links to al Qaeda. But the judge still ruled in Saeed’s favour, since having connections with al Qaeda was no offence under Pakistani law.

Imagine that a country which has lost over 50,000 of its citizens to al Qaeda supported militants, and has suffered a $70 billion economic loss, is still unable to pass a legislation banning al Qaeda. This goes to show what Pakistan’s priorities are.

The conversation that I had with my father when I first visited Tiger Memon’s house reverberated in my mind when I saw the mind blowing Indian movie D-Day. Irfan Khan sees the Don Dawood Ibrahim for the first time at the mosque, and is told by his Pakistani friend: “He has many names. Some call him Saleem Pathan and others know him as Iqbal Seth.”

The Pakistan government’s only strategy is denial. Will India eventually mount an operation to get Dawood Ibrahim, as shown in D Day, akin to the one America mounted against Osama bin Laden? Or will India keep on waiting endlessly for Pakistan to punish those terrorists who are causing mayhem in India and inciting violence from across the border?

Only time will tell.

Anas Abbas is an investigative Counter Terrorism Analyst. He blogs at aacounterterror.wordpress.com and tweets at @Anas_Abbas1.

The Pakistan government’s only strategy is denial


^^^ This is the entire nations strategy , barring a few good souls.

 

[timetravel]

See, I have to disagree with you on this. It is important on how they started, because your first accusation was that Pakistan created Al-Qaeda and Taliban, so to simple say that it's unimportant is being dishonest.

You keep bringing up Al-Qaeda was nurtured by Pakistan, but that's not true. Al-Qaeda was nurtured by the Saudi militants in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda didn't exist in Pakistan and had no dealings with the organization, and in fact, Pakistan had requested (at the behest of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, in the late 90s) that Osama be extradited to Saudi Arabia to stand trial as an enemy of the state.

Taliban and Al-Qaeda are not the same organization, they're completely different. In fact, while Al-Qaeda is considered a terrorist organization by the US and the world, the Taliban have yet to be considered terrorists by the US and EU.

The rest of your comments, I've already answered and I will not repeat them again.

I would have to differ here.

Al Queda had everything to do with Pakistan. Otherwise why is the USA bombing people inside Pakistan. The US is attacking the Al Queda Militants. So if US is striking inside Pakistan, then those people are present inside Pakistan. Also one must not forget that Bin Laden was found right inside Pakistan. Actions speak louder then words.

Regarding Taliban 90% of the people on earth hate and regard Taliban as terrorists. US has been killing Taliban and Al Queda members in its drone strikes on regular intervals inside Pakistan.

 

[timetravel]

So you're basically saying "well your side said this, so this is what you believe"? That is a thought of a naive child.

WoT has affected Pakistan's economy, just not Kashmir, don't confuse the two.

On one hand, you're saying that Kashmir was never included in the war on terror, on the other, you're saying they were. That's contradictory statement. I suggest you be more clear.

9/11 was not a blunder by these terrorists, in fact, according to former CIA operative Michael Scheuer, Bin Laden was successful and everything the US did after 9/11, including the invasion of Afghanistan, was falling right into Bin Laden's trap.

What I meant is that the militants of Taliban and AL Queda are the same. But Pakistan has not taken action against those operating in Kashmir as part of WOT.

and I don't think it was a plan of Bin Laden for US to enter Afghanistan and then shoot him dead !!