"Will cut tongue of anyone who wants to change Blasphemy Laws" - JI

[R Wing]

By taking an abusive stance against, there will be no success. That you should be sure of, at least.

The problem is some of us understand where the liberals are coming from, per se, but the liberals refuse to understand.

Who did I abuse?

The majority of liberal extremists in Pakistan are totally sold to the West and choose only to see the sins of Islam and Pakistan's security establishment. I have fought them intellectually just as vigorously as I have fought ultra-conservative/extremists on this forum.

I don't think one is "liberal" just because one thinks what Qadri did was blatantly against Islam principles. Don't you agree?

 

[Verve]

Pakistan is currently in the grip of ultra-conservative / extremist violence, not liberal-extremist violence. Do you agree or disagree?

Pakistan is not in the grip of any. Majority is conservative and that's just fine.

Ultra conservatives/extremists like TTP are being dealt with.

And liberals are a small minority who will not be able to bring about Pakistani Liberal Spring, no matter how hard they try.

Who did I abuse?

Not you. I was talking of ones who here and on social media constantly use derogatory remarks against anyone who is a conservative.

We've discussed this before.

 

[R Wing]

Pakistan is not in the grip of any. Majority is conservative and that's just fine.

Ultra conservatives/extremists like TTP are being dealt with.

And liberals are a small minority who will not be able to bring about Pakistani Liberal Spring, no matter how hard they try.

Obviously, when I said "grip" I did not literally mean that Pakistan is being held hostage by it. We are winning the war, thank God.

All I'm saying is that the violence / terrorism that we are experiencing, whether we are finally beating it or if its still potent, is ultra-conservative / extremist violence ---- not liberal extremist violence. This is a fact.

Do you think Qadri is a saint who is in Heaven or a cold-blooded murderer who should be in Hell? Just curious.

 

[Vazir]

And how did it all start!? Drunkard press conferences and absolute lack of control on his tongue.

Btw, what happened to Indra Gandhi was very similar.

I said back then that he should have kept like-minded bodyguards. The kind of filth in governor house was no secret.

Um, Indira Gandhi was assassinated because she went ahead to take out a religious leader in a shrine. She was a- well, not a very nice person.

Can you please elaborate on "Anything" would it include sugar coated insults thrown at multiple personalities ranging from Messenger, his companions and his wives? And what about people who believe in those insults ... in fact not only believe but consider holy? Would blasphemy apply on such followers / believers?

Look, what I mean is that criticizing is fine. You want to engage with a meaningful discussion about the age of Muhammad's wives, I'm okay with that. You want to go in public and scream "f*ck Muhammad the pedophile" that's not fine with me, and the person should be punished. But it should be the same punishment as someone who says "f*ck Krishna" or "f*ck Nanak" (which shouldn't be death penalty). But what should be understood here is that:
criticism =/= satire.

 

[Verve]

@R Wing

Last comment on Salman. Being a seasoned politician and man with power, he should have opted for a wiser route and help the lady through back channels. There's a right way of doing things and then there's a wrong way. He clearly opted for a full throttle confrontation.

 

[Arsalan]

What is blasphemy?

Anyone? Someone? This is 4th time I have asked for definition of blasphemy and no one has ever replied.

Apparently, anything that pisses off snowflakes and tries to pop the bubble they're living in is defined as blasphemy.
What blasphemy should be defined as is anything done/said to INTENTIONALLY hurt feelings of a religious group. But RIP common sense.

Actions and words that are meant to disrespect a religion or what others hold sacred. It is quite simple.

My view on this is that any such actions against ANY RELIGION are to be protested and stopped. There should be strong laws that are properly implemented in their true sense to make sure that such actions are prevented. That will help prevent street justice/mob justice (calling which justices is not justified) and vigilante forces taking law in their hands. Saying that there should be NO LAW to stop Blasphemy is like trying to fight fire with saw dust! You are just adding fuel to the fire and lack of a law mean more and more left for the stupid misguided people to handle themselves!! A recipe for disaster.

Our problem today is not Blasphemy or the law against it but the extremes both sides have taken in this debate. One group try and find justification for mob justice (which is NOT justice again) while other calls for law to be declared null and void and in essence, calls for any Blasphemy to be made legal and may be even protected. BOTH OF THEM ARE WRONG and both are equally wrong ( the argument that one calls for killing and other calls for stopping the killing hold no water. One is calling for killing and other is calling for not to kill a guy how have disrespected something to hold dear than you own life. You cannot expect smoke without fire). What both the religion and ideology of liberalism tells us is to follow a path of moderation. The ideology of liberalism also means to curb blasphemy. They cannot exist together.The day our liberals start denouncing and condemning Blasphemy and call for justice to be served AGAINST any such culprits by the state institution and the day our Islamist start calling the mob justice and killings as haram and illegal/sin, we will start doing better. Currently what we should as our self, no matter what side we are on, is that are we doing what is required of us?

To be honest, not to sound unbiased, there are Mullahs and Islamist who will call the lynching and mob killings and beatings as nu-Islamic but I am yet to see a liberal stating that disrespecting Islam, Muslims and there prophet is wrong.


We need to strike that balance or else Mullahs and Liberal extremists will destroy us alike.

 

[Verve]

Do you think Qadri is a saint who is in Heaven or a cold-blooded murderer who should be in Hell? Just curious.

He's a murderer as per law of the land. Heaven or Hell decision is Allah's.

 

[R Wing]

@R Wing

Last comment on Salman. Being a seasoned politician and man with power, he should have opted for a wiser route and help the lady through back channels. There's a right way of doing things and then there's a wrong way. He clearly opted for a full throttle confrontation.

Of course I agree. I am not for a full frontal confrontation. I have fought many feminists, again with intellectual arguments, on why this approach is sure to backfire (when they want to wear miniskirts or whatever in parks.)

What you're talking about is wisdom. Cultural sensitivity. Agreed.

But what I'm saying is --- now that he had done the more brave (and more stupid) thing, it doesn't justify murder. There is nothing in Islam or our laws that allows it. Unless it's the TTP / ISIS "Islam" --- then even kids playing in parks are fair game for a suicide bombing.

Therefore, everyone --- and especially conservatives who feel they are defending Islam's traditions --- should openly and courageously condemn Qadri. The fact that so many people lionized him as a saint despite his anti-Islam and anti-Pakistan action should send alarm bells even in conservative circles.

 

[Arsalan]

@R Wing

Last comment on Salman. Being a seasoned politician and man with power, he should have opted for a wiser route and help the lady through back channels. There's a right way of doing things and then there's a wrong way. He clearly opted for a full throttle confrontation.

What he did was wrong but how it was portrayed was even worst. To me, he was killed by the propaganda machinery and the media, Qadri just pulled the trigger and was rightly hanged for that crime.

 

[R Wing]

He's a murderer as per law of the land. Heaven or Hell decision is Allah's.

And what is he as per the law of the Quran?

Let me rephrase that: would you prefer to see him in Heaven or Hell?

Or yet more simply: do you think Qadri is a saint/hero or a murderer?

 

[Vazir]

Actions and words that are meant to disrespect a religion or what others hold sacred. It is quite simple.

Exactly my point. It has to be meant to be disrespectful, and it has to be equal for all religions.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Need I start pulling out murders by liberal/secular terrorists in Pakistan's history!?

Yes, please do point out a few incidents in Pakistan's History when liberals/seculars had murdered people just for rejecting liberalism/secularism and holding/propagating illiberal views ....

 

[Vazir]

Yes, please do point out a few incidents in Pakistan's History when liberals/seculars had murdered people just for rejecting liberalism/secularism and holding/propagating illiberal views ....

Terrorism in Zia's time when PPP's violent assets based themselves in Libya under Gaddafi and executed several attacks, including at least one hijacking.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Pakistan_International_Airlines_hijacking

 

[Vazir]

What he did was wrong but how it was portrayed was even worst. To me, he was killed by the propaganda machinery and the media, Qadri just pulled the trigger and was rightly hanged for that crime.

Agreed. Even today many people are confused whether Taseer was a Qadyani or not. It takes a tiresome debate to tell them that he's not an Israeli agent, or an Ahmadi........

 

[Lagay Raho]

Yes, please do point out a few incidents in Pakistan's History when liberals/seculars had murdered people just for rejecting liberalism/secularism and holding/propagating illiberal views ....

they work differently.they are long term poison that kills you slowly from inside.Both are two opposite sides of the same rotten coin