"Will cut tongue of anyone who wants to change Blasphemy Laws" - JI

[I.R.A]

What is blasphemy?

Anyone? Someone? This is 4th time I have asked for definition of blasphemy and no one has ever replied.

 

[Verve]

Given our current situation, I think it's pretty obvious that ultra-conservatives / religious extremists are responsible for the vast majority of terrorism / violence in our country. In my mind, it's the poisonous ideology that says "my interpretation is right" that is the most dangerous. It is patently false to say that. Islam has so many interpretations across sects, sub-sects, schools of thought and scholars within those schools of thought, that conservatives should not try and enforce their preferred version onto others --- or judge those who follow different or more tolerant interpretations as "liberals" or judge them as "lesser Muslims." The truth is that only God is capable of making that judgement.

Historically, things may well have been different.

But we're not living in the past.

Salman Taseer is past. Yesterday is past! Please quit your bias and be rational and logical.

No one is judging another being lesser muslim.

Both sides are of extreme opinion/view.

Get a move on instead of just painting one side as evil!

 

[R Wing]

All those who have been casting aspersions upon Ulema in one form or other please proceed here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...s-answering-a-propaganda.493377/#post-9443090

@Azlan Haider this is specially for you.



You have made an allegation against me. It is your job to provide:

1. The definition of who belongs to ISIS/TTP
2. Exactly why you think those same characteristics are found in me.



You have trouble understanding the sentiments of Amir Mushtaq Sahib. I don't have any such trouble. No one, in whose heart the light of faith shines bright would have trouble understanding his sentiments.

If you are having trouble with this, maybe seek a proper spiritual guide who will help you in this matter.



And this is why these people should also be condemned?

https://www.dawn.com/news/1311469

http://nation.com.pk/politics/18-May-2008/Mob-sets-2-thieves-on-fire-in-Karachi

Yes or no?



I believe in very heightened religiousness. Frankly, we should be living in a Caliphate, but while that possibility is remote, Pakistan should be governed by Islamic laws. And our religion doesn't teach an infinite tolerance for everything. Especially in the sphere of public life, Islamic laws are to be promulgated because otherwise everyone who accepts a public sin becomes a sinner.



Again, if you are so out of tune with the rest of society, you need to take steps to reach that understanding. A proper spiritual guide would help you a lot.

Apologies for not being able to reply / retort under each of your points --- I'm still figuring out how to format replies on this forum and have asked a Mod for help. Till then, I've highlighted yours in Bold and indented my answers.

Thank you for your level-headed response because I know this is a very emotional topic. To both of us, this is tug of war for the soul of our country. We both want what's best, we both want to be good Muslims and talking about our differing views will insha'Allah help us achieve a better future.

You have made an allegation against me. It is your job to provide:

1. The definition of who belongs to ISIS/TTP
2. Exactly why you think those same characteristics are found in me.

A question is not an allegation. I am curious how you consider your approach different from theirs (since you believe in violence against those who are judged to be blasphemers / heretics.) I believe this is a fair question and your answer will certainly help fellow members understand the difference between "conservative" and "extremist."

You have trouble understanding the sentiments of Amir Mushtaq Sahib. I don't have any such trouble. No one, in whose heart the light of faith shines bright would have trouble understanding his sentiments.​

If you are having trouble with this, maybe seek a proper spiritual guide who will help you in this matter.

My spiritual guide is my Prophet, who said or did no such things. Maybe you (and Amir Mushtaq) need to find a spiritual guide more like our great Messenger (PBUH) and who would rather make statements that are more in line with "I will follow my Prophet's example and forgive the blasphemer."​

And this is why these people should also be condemned?

https://www.dawn.com/news/1311469

http://nation.com.pk/politics/18-May-2008/Mob-sets-2-thieves-on-fire-in-Karachi

Yes or no?

Yes, they should be condemned too. We've had this discussion in a previous thread. I pointed out that the blasphemy / intolerance / declaring others wajib-ul-qatal (pet word of conservatives, along with "bidat") is a much larger crisis for Pakistan's national security currently. Terrorism --- especially suicide bombings --- are the result of ultra-conservative / highly selective / radical interpretations of our Holy Book and Hadith that, to the terrorists, not only allow but encourage the killing of innocent Pakistani civilians on the pretext that they are not up in arms against a non-Sharia-based / Caliphate-styled government (and one that is aligned with Western and/or atheist powers) and are therefore "fair game" to slaughter.​

I believe in very heightened religiousness. Frankly, we should be living in a Caliphate, but while that possibility is remote, Pakistan should be governed by Islamic laws. And our religion doesn't teach an infinite tolerance for everything. Especially in the sphere of public life, Islamic laws are to be promulgated because otherwise everyone who accepts a public sin becomes a sinner.

I did not say that we should not have Islamic laws or become a Caliphate --- I said that we are currently not living in one. I agree that our religion does not teach an infinite tolerance; no question about that. There are punishments for transgressions --- but I hope you will agree that both the definitions of those transgressions and the punishments are fluid i.e. their implementation is debated amongst schools of thought, sects, sub-sects, etc. Therefore it is inaccurate to say that "Islam requires ABC and punishment is XYZ" --- a more accurate statement would be that this sect, school of thought, scholar, etc., based on this fatwa feels that "Islam..." --- and there are usually a number of opposing opinions available too.​

Again, if you are so out of tune with the rest of society, you need to take steps to reach that understanding. A proper spiritual guide would help you a lot.

What if someone's spiritual guide is a so-called "modernist" scholar of Islam who believes in a different interpretation than yours? Should I wear bullet proof googles and some kind of tongue protection device so you don't mutilate my face with Amir Mushtaq?

Seriously though, you get the issue I'm arriving at, right? When two scholars arrive at wildly different conclusion on a particular Islamic point --- it would be wise to respect both. Along the same lines of argument, there are scholars who strongly feel that such laws, in their current format and implementation, need to be heavily revised or abolished. It would perhaps be better to engage them on intellectual grounds, which might be difficult if their eyes and tongues have already been gouged out.
​

 

[R Wing]

Salman Taseer is past. Yesterday is past! Please quit your bias and be rational and logical.

No one is judging another being lesser muslim.

Both sides are of extreme opinion/view.

Get a move on instead of just painting one side as evil!

You're missing my point. Just FYI, I am probably "right-of-center." I believe in a number of very aggressive measures when it comes to national security. I don't think we should have sold out to America the way we did. Etc.

Take the Salman Taseer example. Was he a bigger threat to our country or a man like Qadri? Was Salman Taseer advocating violence against anyone who doesn't share your views? He didn't even disrespect the Prophet, and he was killed in cold blood by a deranged man who is, God willing, burning in Hell --- yet so many conservatives consider him some kind of hero even though he did something utterly un-Islamic and against the laws of this country. This is the problem. The fact that conservatives generally judge those who follow less traditionalist or conservative interpretations of religion is the problem. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you: judging another to be a lesser Muslim IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM.

Both extremes are damaging to society, but the liberals aren't out for blood. Big difference.

 

[Hell hound]

Both extremes are damaging to society, but the liberals aren't out for blood. Big difference.

good luck getting this point through the head of any conservative mate to them liberals are equally or even more dangerous than isis or ttp

 

[Verve]

liberals aren't out for blood

Wars have been fought over 'mere' words! When people can't control their tongues and pens, fights and bloodshed will be inevitable. It takes two to tango.

Not going to discuss Salman. His killer was hanged. End of.

 

[Vazir]

What is blasphemy?

Anyone? Someone? This is 4th time I have asked for definition of blasphemy and no one has ever replied.

Apparently, anything that pisses off snowflakes and tries to pop the bubble they're living in is defined as blasphemy.
What blasphemy should be defined as is anything done/said to INTENTIONALLY hurt feelings of a religious group. But RIP common sense.

 

[Vazir]

Not going to discuss Salman. His killer was hanged. End of story.

His killer was hanged. And then made into a goddamn saint. There's something wrong with our religious establishment, sir. And we must recognize it and get rid of it, because I am yet to find a religious party that condemned Salman's murder.

 

[I.R.A]

What blasphemy should be defined as is anything done/said to INTENTIONALLY hurt feelings of a religious group.

Can you please elaborate on "Anything" would it include sugar coated insults thrown at multiple personalities ranging from Messenger, his companions and his wives? And what about people who believe in those insults ... in fact not only believe but consider holy? Would blasphemy apply on such followers / believers?

 

[R Wing]

Wars have been fought over 'mere' words! When people can't control their tongues and pens, fights and bloodshed will be inevitable. It takes two to tango.

Not going to discuss Salman. His killer was hanged. End of.

You are trying to twist my point. I stated that Pakistan is currently in the grip of ultra-conservative / extremist violence, not liberal-extremist violence. It would be hard to argue against this fact.

I think we need to discuss Salman Taseer shaheed's case. It is an important one for the country because it ended up in the mass celebrations for a murderer who committed a crime not only against the laws of this nation but also the tenants of our religion --- yet he was lionized as a saint by far too many. In fact, this is the very discussion that we need to have to root out the menace of extremism and intolerance.

 

[Verve]

His killer was hanged. And then made into a goddamn saint. There's something wrong with our religious establishment, sir. And we must recognize it and get rid of it, because I am yet to find a religious party that condemned Salman's murder.

And how did it all start!? Drunkard press conferences and absolute lack of control on his tongue.

Btw, what happened to Indra Gandhi was very similar.

I said back then that he should have kept like-minded bodyguards. The kind of filth in governor house was no secret.

 

[R Wing]

And how did it all start!? Drunkard press conferences and absolute lack of control on his tongue.

Btw, what happened to Indra Gandhi was very similar.

I said back then that he should have kept like-minded bodyguards. The kind of filth in governor house was no secret.

Islam requires proof. Mullahs should have gone into the court of law. Rumours of filth don't count. And what about the filth / sodomy in madrassas? I can share examples, but I don't want to generalize. My point is that filth is everywhere and nobody has given Mullahs the right to take anything into their own hands.

Salman Taseer was, like most humans, far from perfect. But he did not commit blasphemy. He was trying to protect a falsely accused woman.

And now let's arrive at the next possibility: what if he had committed blasphemy? A mob or individual is not supposed to decide the accused's fate and act upon it. Even a person who openly commits blasphemy can be pardoned if he repents, accordingly to a number of scholars / fatwas that I can dig up if required.

All this considered, it is highly shocking that a murderer like Qadri, who was rightly hanged and is hopefully enjoying the Hell-fire, would be considered a saint and celebrated by millions of countrymen and women. This is deeply troubling. This exemplifies the problem. This is the hurdle we have to pass to truly defeat terrorism / extremism.

 

[Verve]

You are trying to twist my point.

No, I'm asking you to be inclusive.

I asked earlier, where we're all these anti-blasphemy voices when sect killing was in full swing? No social media 10 or so years back? No answer so far by any. What all were you doing then?

 

[R Wing]

No, I'm asking you to be inclusive.

I asked earlier, where we're all these anti-blasphemy voices when sect killing was in full swing? No social media 10 or so years back? No answer so far by any. What all were you doing then?

I stated that Pakistan is currently in the grip of ultra-conservative / extremist violence, not liberal-extremist violence. Do you agree or disagree?

Naturally, people debate issues as they come up. Mob/vigilante violence over the blasphemy law increased exponentially after the coward Qadri killed Taseer in cold blood, against all principles of Islam and the laws of Pakistan.

Sectarian violence is still going on, and deserves to be condemned just as strongly. BTW, the root cause of both these kinds of violence --- and also the general terrorism in Pakistan a la suicide bombings, etc. --- is the same: ultra-conservative mindsets with little tolerance for different interpretations and implementations of our religion. This is the core problem.

 

[Verve]

This exemplifies the problem. This is the hurdle we have to pass to truly defeat terrorism / extremism.

By taking an abusive stance against, there will be no success. That you should be sure of, at least.

The problem is some of us understand where the liberals are coming from, per se, but the liberals refuse to understand.