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Why they hate China

Tibet wasn’t ours, says Chinese scholar

Venkatesan Vembu
Thursday, February 22, 2007 20:37 IST

HONG KONG: A leading Chinese historian and a veteran of the committee that advises on official Chinese history textbooks has broken step with the official Chinese line on historical sovereignty over Tibet and said that to claim that the ancient Buddhist kingdom “has always been a part of China” would be a “defiance of history”.

In an article in the China Review magazine, Professor Ge Jianxiong, 62, director of the Institute of Chinese Historical Geography and the Research Centre for Historical Geographic Studies at Fudan University in Shanghai, states that while considering how big China was during the Tang Dynasty (7th to 10th century), “we cannot include the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau, which was ruled by Tubo/Tufan…”

Tubo/Tufan, notes Ge, “was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty. At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty.” If it were not, he argues, there would have been no need for the Tang emperor of the day to offer Princess Wen Cheng in a “marriage of state” to the Tibetan king, Songtsen Gampo.

“It would be a defiance of history,” asserts Ge, “to claim that Tibet has always been a part of China since the Tang Dynasty; the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim.”

Ge’s article is an exploration of a larger theme of Chinese identity in history — and precisely when it evolved. And his comments on Tibet conform to scholarly accounts that acknowledge that the takeover of Tibet during the Qing Dynasty (17th to early 20th century) was the starting point for “Chinese sovereignty” over the region.

Yet, Ge’s comments are controversial insofar as they deviate from the official Communist Party line that Tibet has always been an inalienable part of China; in the past China has regarded as any weakening of that theory as “anti-national” and “split-ist”. It will be interesting to see how the authorities respond to Ge’s scholarly article.

Ge’s major research fields include historical population geography, population and migration history, and cultural history. He has written and edited numerous books, and over 100 articles on historical population geography, population and migration history, and cultural history.

In his latest article, Ge notes that prior to 1912, when the Republic of China was officially founded, the idea of China (in Chinese, Zhongguo) wasn’t clearly conceptualised. Even during the late Qing period, he writes, the term ‘China’ would on occasion be used to refer to the “Qing State, including all the territory that fell within the boundaries of the Qing empire”; but at other times, it would be taken to refer only to the “18 interior provinces”, excluding Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Xinjiang. Therefore, he argues, “if we want to understand the extent of ancient China’s territory, we can only speak of how large the actual territory controlled by a particular dynasty was at a particular moment.”

Noting that notions of a ‘Greater China’ were based entirely on the “one-sided views of Qing court records that were… written for the court’s self-aggrandisement”, Ge criticises those who feel that “the more they exaggerate the territory of historical ‘China’ or China’s successive dynasties and kingdoms, the more patriotic they are.”

In fact, he says, the opposite is true. “If China really wishes to rise peacefully and be on a solid footing to face the future, we must understand the sum of our history and learn from our experiences.

DNA - World - Tibet wasn’t ours, says Chinese scholar - Daily News & Analysis
 
Tibet wasn’t ours, says Chinese scholar

Venkatesan Vembu
Thursday, February 22, 2007 20:37 IST

HONG KONG: A leading Chinese historian and a veteran of the committee that advises on official Chinese history textbooks has broken step with the official Chinese line on historical sovereignty over Tibet and said that to claim that the ancient Buddhist kingdom “has always been a part of China” would be a “defiance of history”.

In an article in the China Review magazine, Professor Ge Jianxiong, 62, director of the Institute of Chinese Historical Geography and the Research Centre for Historical Geographic Studies at Fudan University in Shanghai, states that while considering how big China was during the Tang Dynasty (7th to 10th century), “we cannot include the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau, which was ruled by Tubo/Tufan…”

Tubo/Tufan, notes Ge, “was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty. At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty.” If it were not, he argues, there would have been no need for the Tang emperor of the day to offer Princess Wen Cheng in a “marriage of state” to the Tibetan king, Songtsen Gampo.

“It would be a defiance of history,” asserts Ge, “to claim that Tibet has always been a part of China since the Tang Dynasty; the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim.”

Ge’s article is an exploration of a larger theme of Chinese identity in history — and precisely when it evolved. And his comments on Tibet conform to scholarly accounts that acknowledge that the takeover of Tibet during the Qing Dynasty (17th to early 20th century) was the starting point for “Chinese sovereignty” over the region.

Yet, Ge’s comments are controversial insofar as they deviate from the official Communist Party line that Tibet has always been an inalienable part of China; in the past China has regarded as any weakening of that theory as “anti-national” and “split-ist”. It will be interesting to see how the authorities respond to Ge’s scholarly article.

Ge’s major research fields include historical population geography, population and migration history, and cultural history. He has written and edited numerous books, and over 100 articles on historical population geography, population and migration history, and cultural history.

In his latest article, Ge notes that prior to 1912, when the Republic of China was officially founded, the idea of China (in Chinese, Zhongguo) wasn’t clearly conceptualised. Even during the late Qing period, he writes, the term ‘China’ would on occasion be used to refer to the “Qing State, including all the territory that fell within the boundaries of the Qing empire”; but at other times, it would be taken to refer only to the “18 interior provinces”, excluding Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Xinjiang. Therefore, he argues, “if we want to understand the extent of ancient China’s territory, we can only speak of how large the actual territory controlled by a particular dynasty was at a particular moment.”

Noting that notions of a ‘Greater China’ were based entirely on the “one-sided views of Qing court records that were… written for the court’s self-aggrandisement”, Ge criticises those who feel that “the more they exaggerate the territory of historical ‘China’ or China’s successive dynasties and kingdoms, the more patriotic they are.”

In fact, he says, the opposite is true. “If China really wishes to rise peacefully and be on a solid footing to face the future, we must understand the sum of our history and learn from our experiences.

DNA - World - Tibet wasn’t ours, says Chinese scholar - Daily News & Analysis

So you agree that china has had control of the region since the 17th century....?

Using the same yardstick.....how long has the US has control over its terrority...or in that case any country.
I think china has had tibet for longer then most countries have had a country.
 
The UK had control over India and what is today, Pakistan!

Can they claim both as theirs?

Are you ready to be a part of the British Empire?

And say ji hazoor to the gora log?

You may.

I won't.

Bahadur Shah Zafar's words ring in my ear and my heart!

"My heart is not happy in this despoiled land
Who has ever felt fulfilled in this transient world
Tell these emotions to go dwell elsewhere
Where is there space for them in this besmirched (bloodied) heart?
The nighthingale laments neither to the gardener nor to the hunter
Imprisonment was written in fate in the season of spring
I had requested for a long life a life of four days
Two passed by in pining, and two in waiting.
How unlucky is Zafar! For burial
Even two yards of land were not to be had, in the land (of the) beloved."
 
Differences of time is vast.

Hardly!

Perceptions!

Remember Iraq!

Remember the fears expressed in this forum itself!!

The world is a weird place. Yesterday, all acclaimed Musharraf as a hero (except Lahori, who was laughed out of here) and today they are at his jugular!!

Funny world!

The impossible can happen!
 
We have large area and longer history ,in my eyes,west people are fool ,CNN and west news medias are pigs that lost parents,in my dialect of JiNan,they are SiHaiZi.
 
all of a sudden why are they so many Chinese Members?? Sent by the govt to defend CPC in Tibet?
 
We have large area and longer history ,in my eyes,west people are fool ,CNN and west news medias are pigs that lost parents,in my dialect of JiNan,they are SiHaiZi.

The Chninese mind has always historically been governed by those who rule.

That is why the Chinese love to be robots.

Check this out:

Legalism (Chinese philosophy)


In Chinese history, Legalism (Chinese: 法家; pinyin: Fǎjiā; Wade-Giles: Fa-chia; literally "School of law") was one of the four main philosophic schools during the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period (the other three being Confucianism, Daoism and Mohism). This period (from 770 to 221 BC) was an era of great cultural and intellectual ferment in China, and gave rise to many important schools of thought. In China under the political leadership of Li Si, his form of Legalism became a totalitarian ideology in China, Li Si's Legalism one of the earliest known totalitarian ideologies.

Legalism was a pragmatic political philosophy, with maxims like "when the epoch changed, legalism is the act of following all laws", and its essential principle is one of jurisprudence. "Legalism" here can bear the meaning of "political philosophy that upholds the rule of law", and is thus distinguished from the word's Western sense. The school's most famous proponent and contributor Han Fei believed that a ruler should govern his or her subjects by the following trinity:

1. Fa (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law or principle"): The law code must be clearly written and made public. All people under the ruler were equal before the law. Laws should reward those who obey them and punish accordingly those who dare to break them. Thus it is guaranteed that actions taken are systematically predictable. In addition, the system of law ran the state, not the ruler. If the law is successfully enforced, even a weak ruler will be strong.
2. Shu (Chinese: 術; pinyin: shù; literally "method, tactic or art"): Special tactics and "secrets" are to be employed by the ruler to make sure others don't take over control of the state. Especially important is that no one can fathom the ruler's motivations, and thus no one can know which behaviour might help them getting ahead; except for following the 法 or laws.
3. Shi (Chinese: 勢; pinyin: shì; literally "legitimacy, power or charisma"): It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself or herself, that holds the power. Therefore, analysis of the trends, the context, and the facts are essential for a real ruler.

Origin

Legalism was first created by Shang Yang as a realist reform oriented philosophy to turn the state of Qin from a backward state to a powerful state that would eventually conquer the other six states and create China. Shang Yang's law theories advocate the belief that all people are fundamentally equal and that stringent laws and harsh punishments are required to keep them in order. Shang Yang became prime minister of the Qin under the rule of Duke Xiao of Qin and gradually began transforming the state into a vigorously regulated machine, the sole purpose of which was the elimination of all rivals. Shang Yang swept away the aristocracy and implemented a meritocracy – only those who achieved could reach high places and birth privilege was reserved exclusively for the ruler of the state. Previously the army had been controlled by nobles and constituted of feudal levies. Now generals could come from any part of society, provided they had sufficient skill. In addition, troops were highly trained and disciplined. From then on, Qin was taking its shape to become the most powerful state in China before it eventually brought all of the six other states together (Qi, Chu, Han, Yan, Zhao, and Wei) under the First Emperor (Qin Shi Huangdi, literally the First Emperor - prior to ascending to the imperial throne he was known as Qin Ying Zheng).

[edit] Role of the ruler

Primarily members of the ruling class, the Legalists emphasized that the head of state was endowed with the "mystery of authority” (Chinese: 勢; pinyin: shì), and as such his or her decisions must always command the respect and obedience of the people. The emperor’s very figure brought legitimacy. In emphasizing the power of rulership, Legalists such as Shen Dao (ca. 350-275 BC) and Shen Buhai sought to devalue the importance of the charismatic ruler. Skillful rulers hid their true intentions and feigned nonchalance. To ensure that all of his or her words were revered, the wise ruler kept a low profile. Thus, theoretically, by cloaking both his or her desires and his or her will, the Emperors checked sycophancy and forced his or her subject to heed his or her dictates. While Shang Yang (the Prime Minister of Duke Xiao of Qin) would allow rulers to listen to musical instruments rather than focus on foreign policy, Han Feizi (the Legalist scholar most admired by the First Qin Emperor, Qin Shi Huangdi) demanded more of the wise ruler. A good leader, by Han Feizi's standards, must not only accept the advice of loyal ministers when shown to be in error, but must also extend courtesy to those beneath him or her and not be too avaricious. The adept ruler also understood the importance of strictness over benevolence. Although the ruler was expected to be paternalistic, the Legalists emphasized that being too kind would spoil the populace and threaten the state's internal order. Interestingly, according to Han's Grand Historian Sima Qian (ca. 145-86 BC), while the First Qin Emperor hid himself from the rest of the world (perhaps due to a desire to attain immortality) and thus maintained a low profile, he did not necessarily follow all of the Legalists’ advice on the role of the ruler.

[edit] Role of ministers in Legalist thought

To aid the ruler and help prevent misgovernance, Shen Buhai – a minister from the state of Han for fifteen years – formalized the concept of shu (Chinese: 術; pinyin: shù; literally "methods"), or the bureaucratic model of administration that served to advance the ideal Legalist ruler’s program. To the Legalists, the intelligent minister was the ruler's most important aide. Whereas the minister’s duty was to understand specific affairs, the ruler was responsible for correctly judging ministers’ performances. Stressing that ministers and other officials too often sought favours from foreign powers by abusing their positions, Han Feizi urged rulers to control these individuals by the two handles of punishment and favour. Officials were required, through fear, to ensure that ministers' accomplishments were neither greater than nor inferior to the assigned undertaking. According to the eminent sinologist Robin Yates, newly discovered Qin legal codes show that officials were required to correctly calculate the exact amount of labor expected of all artisans; if the artisan was ordered to perform either too much work or too little work, the official would be held accountable. Thus, in Legalist theory, ministers and other officials were prevented from performing some other official's duties and were punished if they attempted to blind the ruler with words or failed to warn ruler of danger. One consequence of this situation was that the ministers could always be held accountable for royal misadventures while the ruler’s name was never to be tarnished. By emphasizing performance, however, over sophistry, the Legalists hoped to eliminate bureaucratic corruption and intrigues amongst the officialdom through fear.

[edit] Purpose of law

The laws supported by the Legalists were meant to support the state, the king, and his or her military. They were also reform-oriented and innovative. In theory, the Legalists believed that if the punishments were heavy and the law equally applied, neither the powerful nor the weak would be able to escape state control. The Legalists especially emphasized pragmatism over precedence and custom as the basis of law. Guided by Legalist thought, the First Qin Emperor would weaken the power of the feudal lords (although not completely as previously discussed), divide the unified empire into thirty-six administrative provinces, and standardize the writing system. Reflecting Legalist passion for order and structure, Qin soldiers were only mobilized when both halves of tiger-shaped tallies (one held by the ruler and the other by the commanding general) were brought together. Likewise, all documents in the empire had to have recorded the year they were written, the scribe who copied them, and up to the exact hour of delivery. Accepting Shang Yang’s earlier emphasis on the standardization of weights and measures, the First Qin Emperor would also accept Shang Yang’s philosophy that no individual in the state should be above the law (by ensuring harsh punishments for all cases of dissent) and that families should be divided into smaller households. While there is reason to doubt Sima Qian’s claim that the First Qin Emperor did in fact divide households into groups of ten, certainly the other examples of standardization and administrative organization undertaken by the First Emperor reflect the importance of Legalist thought in Qin law. Based on promoting the interests of the state Qin, the law (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law, method, way, Buddhist teaching") served as a vehicle to both control the populace and eliminate dissent.

[edit] Legalism and individual autonomy

The Legalist philosophers emphasized the primacy of the state over individual autonomy. The lone individual had no legitimate civil rights and any personal freedom had to strengthen the ruler. Han Feizi, in particular, would be very caustic towards the concept of individual rights. Fundamentally, the Legalists viewed the plebeian (common people of lower class) and their actions as evil and foolish.

However, Legalism allowed the common people to gain in rank if they perform well, e. g. soldiers were allowed to gain in rank by the number of heads the soldiers collected. The soldier may even gain noble rank. In contrast, some other states allow only the well-connected to gain higher ranks. Another example would be Lü Buwei, originally a merchant, was able to become Chancellor of China, an occurrence that would never happen in the other six states. However, his important role in King Zhuangxiang of Qin's rise to power should be noted.

Consequently, according to Shang Yang's The Book of Lord Shang, the people themselves wanted a ruler to generate order. Social cohesion in the Legalist state mandated that the populace never escape punishment. The Qin dynasty used the people, for example, to maintain vigilant mutual surveillance over one another under threat of death.

This intrastate realpolitik would end up devouring the Legalist philosophers themselves. Shang Yang, in advocating the state’s right to punish even the heir-apparent’s tutor, would run afoul of the future King Huiwen of Qin (r. 338-311 BC). Whereas at one point, he had the power to exile his opponents (and, thus, eviscerate individual criticism) to border regions of the state, he died when torn into pieces by chariots. Similarly, Han Feizi would end up being poisoned by his envious former classmate Li Si, who in turn would be killed (under the law he had introduced) by the violent Second Qin Emperor he had helped to enthrone.

[edit] Power politics between the philosophies

Most Chinese philosophers and political thinkers have had very negative views toward Legalism blaming it for what today would be considered a totalitarian society. Many Chinese scholars believe that it was a reaction against legalism that gave Chinese Imperial politics its personalistic and moralistic flavor rather than emphasis on the rule of law.

However, this view of the Qin may be biased, as most of the Chinese historical records were written by Confucian scholars, who were persecuted under the Qin.

[edit] Decline

In later dynasties, Legalism was discredited and ceased to be an independent school of thought. However, both ancient and modern Confucian observers of Chinese politics have argued that some Legalist ideas have merged with mainstream Confucianism and still have a role to play in government. The philosophy of imperial China can be described as Confucianism externally and legalism internally (Chinese: 儒表法裏; pinyin: rú biăo fă cái; literally "Confucian, scholar; external surface; Buddhist teaching, legalist; judgment"), i. e. sugarcoating the harsh legalism ideas with a surface of Confucianism. Although during the Sui and Tang dynasty, buddhist influence were also included externally.

There was a brief revival of Legalism during the Sui dynasty to reunify China. After the Sui dynasty was replaced by the Tang dynasty, the Tang government still used the government structure left behind by the Sui dynasty, albeit with much reduced laws.

More recently, Mao Zedong, who had some knowledge of ancient Chinese philosophy, compared himself with Qin Shi Huang[citation needed] and publicly approved of some Legalist methods. One such method approved in the 1980s under Deng Xiaoping administration is the reward and punishment, which has increased the size of the Beijing government in the process. However, since the 1990s the related concept of the rule of law has gained currency.

[edit] Related figures

The Confucian thinker Xun Zi is sometimes considered as being influenced by or having nourished Legalist ideas, mostly because two of his disciples (Li Si and Han Fei) were strict Legalists.

[edit] Related philosophies

* Confucianism
* Meritocracy
* Mohism
* Platonism
* Realism (Political philosophy)

[edit] Contrasting philosophies

* Taoism
* Stoicism

[edit] Korean Legalism

The history of Korea's Legalism is traced to the Gyeonggukdaejeon, a law book compiled in the Joseon dynasty.[citation needed] There is a mixed perception of Legalism within South Korean society, as the post-WWII military regime used the idea of Legalism as a tool of its governance.[citation needed] The ideas are closely related to Chinese Legalism.[1]

[edit] References

1. ^ Song Dae-keun, "Use Legalism to Govern the Nation." Dong-a Ilbo, January 2, 2006

* Barbieri-Low, Anthony, trans. “The Standard Measure of Shang Yang (344 B.C.).” 2006.
* Creel, H.G. “The Totalitarianism of the Legalists.” Chinese Thought from Confucius to Mao Tsê-tung. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1953.
* Duyvendak, J.J.L., trans. The Book of Lord Shang: A Classic of the Chinese School of Law. London: Probsthain, 1928.
* Graham, A.C., Disputers of the TAO: Philosophical Argument in Ancient China (Open Court 1993). ISBN 0-8126-9087-7
* Pu-hai, Shen. “Appendix C: The Shen Pu-hai Fragments.” Shen Pu-hai: A Chinese Political Philosopher of the Fourth Century B.C. Translated by Herrlee G. Creel. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1974.
* Qian, Sima. Records of the Grand Historian, Qin Dynasty. Translated by Burton Watson. New York: Columbia University Press, 1993.
* Schwartz, Benjamin I. The World of Thought in Ancient China. Cambridge, MA: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1985.
* Watson, Burton, trans. Han Fei Tzu: Basic Writings. New York: Columbia University Press, 1964.

[edit] External links

* "Chinese Legalism: Documentary Materials and Ancient Totalitarianism"
* Legalist texts (Chinese)
* "The Book of Lord Shang"

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_%28Chinese_philosophy%29"
Categories: Chinese law | Chinese philosophy | Chinese thought | Joseon Dynasty | Philosophy of law | Politics of the People's Republic of China | Politics of South Korea
 
all of a sudden why are they so many Chinese Members?? Sent by the govt to defend CPC in Tibet?

Does that trouble you profoundly? Remember nearly 25% of the world population is Chinese.

Of course, many of your(plural) lies will be exposed a lot more easily. :yahoo:
 
Who can translate text below? "西方人民是非常愚蠢的,他们被资本主义的喉舌媒体所蒙蔽,他们就是希特勒说的劣等人,西方政府从来都想掠夺我们,只是现在他们打不过我们,只好和我们做生意赚钱,但他们的狼子野心是从来不曾改变的。几千年前,俺的老乡说以直报怨,以德报德,可惜被封建帝王改成以德报怨,到如今都被政府采用,这是曲解孔子的理论。对这些西方人,你只能修理他们,他们欠收拾。用方言说,他们就是一帮私孩子。"
 
Tibet wasn’t ours, says Chinese scholar

I don't understand why the Chinese scholar's article can cause such a sensation in some Indian friends' brain cells!

This topic has nothing new at all. Tubo (Tibet) was of itself a tribe in very ancient times (before Yuan Dynasty). Eventually it had some closer and closer relationship with China at ancient times (since Yuan Dynasty). Since ancient time (Qing Dynasty), though occasionally shaking back and forth, Tibet has been virtually a part of China. I believe CPC has truly make Tibet a part of China, which has being rankling India very much until recently.

The boldfaced part is my diagnosis for the enigma of pseudo-sensational agitation in those brains.
 
The UK had control over India and what is today, Pakistan!

Can they claim both as theirs?

...

Yes, they can, they have, and they are, and more than two. These places are Australia, Canada, USA...!

So what!
 
I don't understand why the Chinese scholar's article can cause such a sensation in some Indian friends' brain cells!

This topic has nothing new at all. Tubo (Tibet) was of itself a tribe in very ancient times (before Yuan Dynasty). Eventually it had some closer and closer relationship with China at ancient times (since Yuan Dynasty). Since ancient time (Qing Dynasty), though occasionally shaking back and forth, Tibet has been virtually a part of China. I believe CPC has truly make Tibet a part of China, which has being rankling India very much until recently.

The boldfaced part is my diagnosis for the enigma of pseudo-sensational agitation in those brains.

It does not cause sensation to the Indian mind.

It only indicates the blatant lies that the Chinese internet brigade wants the world to believe!

Legalism is what runs your mindset.

Read up about "Legalism".
China Legalism 法 家 經 典 文 學
Legalism (Chinese philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Legalism
Legalism
Ancient China Legalism - Shang Yang, Shen Buhai, Han Feizi, Later Legalism, Bibliography
 
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