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Why Pakistan’s army is more popular than its politicians

The whole mindset thingy was invented by Developero

You yourself quoted the paragraph where the author admits that his prism may not apply to Pakistani thought.

, I was trying to show that ethnicity and caste do play a role in subcontinent, you can put it under the carpet but reality doesn't change.

There is no concept of caste in Pakistan. Caste is useless unless others respect it. Just because someone feels superior because they are a rajput or jatt (as you mentioned) means bupkis if the other person doesn't even know these 'castes', let alone respect them.

As for ethnicity, there are stereotypes in Pakistan. For example, Pathans are thought to be fierce warriors -- probably because of their above average build -- but, as you pointed out, they do not dominate the army. So the stereotype is not borne out.
 
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You yourself quoted the paragraph where the author admits that his prism may not apply to Pakistani thought.



There is no concept of caste in Pakistan. Caste is useless unless others respect it. Just because someone feels superior because they are a rajput or jatt (as you mentioned) means bupkis if the other person doesn't even know these 'castes', let alone respect them.

As for ethnicity, there are stereotypes in Pakistan. For example, Pathans are thought to be fierce warriors -- probably because of their above average build -- but, as you pointed out, they do not dominate the army. So the stereotype is not borne out.

even these racial stereotypes are ridiculous..
It has NOTHING to do with race.. rather inherited profession..take an example of these musical gharanas.. its because they have a long tradition of being singers..and that they tend to inculcate vocal training techniques from generations to generations is why they are known for producing good singers.

take a kid from a warrior family.. give him to eunuchs for his life.. make him marry.. see if his grandkids are anything warriorlike.
 
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It's true, some classes in Pakistan have a history to do battle and others trade.
 
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even these racial stereotypes are ridiculous..
It has NOTHING to do with race.. rather inherited profession..take an example of these musical gharanas.. its because they have a long tradition of being singers..and that they tend to inculcate vocal training techniques from generations to generations is why they are known for producing good singers.

take a kid from a warrior family.. give him to eunuchs for his life.. make him marry.. see if his grandkids are anything warriorlike.

True, but there is also an element of physical appearance. Pathans tend to be taller and more muscular than the national average, and they are often hired as security guards, so the perception remains. But it would probably also apply to a tall, muscular Punjabi or Sindhi. It's more about build than ethnicity.
 
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True, but there is also an element of physical appearance. Pathans tend to be taller and more muscular than the national average, and they are often hired as security guards, so the perception remains. But it would probably also apply to a tall, muscular Punjabi or Sindhi. It's more about build than ethnicity.

In the last its the stamina and the dedication that matters which can be constructed using vigorous training. Concept of "Martial race" is all bullshit.
 
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This piece starts with:
With a population a seventh India’s size, with an economy a tenth India’s size, Pakistan maintains an army half India’s size.
The author doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Why an army only 'half' India's size? Because what India can throw against Pakistan is not twice the force level of Pakistan. The combat ratio comes to 1 : 1.2 against Pakistan. The remainder is deployed mainly against China. Pakistan needs to have a sufficient force level for a viable defensive doctrine. Add to that the nuke force-multiplier and you have parity.

But there's no need to spend more on defence as it does not make economic sense. One can't keep increasing the size of the Armed Forces at the cost of development.
 
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The author doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Why an army only 'half' India's size? Because what India can throw against Pakistan is not twice the force level of Pakistan. The combat ratio comes to 1 : 1.2. against Pakistan. The remainder is deployed mainly against China. Therefore Pakistan has a sufficient force level for a viable defensive doctrine. Add to that the nuke force-multiplier and you have parity. So why spend more exorbitant amounts on defence at the cost of development?

You guys have only 4 divisions towards China, and 4 in Assam. The rest are focused towards Pakistan. Meaning 80% of your forces are on Pakistan's borders.
 
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You must be insane to call Hamid Gul a retard.
 
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Pakistan is also a Punjabi dominated country, as Punjabis comprise of about 55% (this includes the Saraiki, South Punjab people as well) of the country's population. And for your information, the Pakistan Army is a volunteer Army, so only those who apply can be enlisted.

A rough estimate shows that Punjabis comprise of 55.8% of the Pakistan's Army, Pakhtuns 15.4%, Baloch 2.4%, Sindhis 15.1%, & the remaining from Azad Kashmir/Gilgit-Baltistan/Urdu speaking communities. This is pretty comparable to the Pakistan's population by ethnic group.

Shhhhhhh!


You'll wake the Indian and Western Pakistan and Army bashers from their stupor ... they have based so much of their hatred of Pakistan and the PA on the delusions that the PA is a 'Pakjabi Army' and that its composition does not reflect Pakistan's overall ethnic demographics ...
 
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This piece starts with:

The author doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Why an army only 'half' India's size? Because what India can throw against Pakistan is not twice the force level of Pakistan. The combat ratio comes to 1 : 1.2 against Pakistan. The remainder is deployed mainly against China. Pakistan needs to have a sufficient force level for a viable defensive doctrine. Add to that the nuke force-multiplier and you have parity.

But there's no need to spend more on defence as it does not make economic sense. One can't keep increasing the size of the Armed Forces at the cost of development.

Pakistan's military budget is about 2.6% of its GDP, a little less/better than India('s 2.8%). It's expected to fall to 2.4% next year. Pakistan's military budget is $5.6 billion I believe, out of the country's total budget of $32 billion (please correct me if this figure is wrong). That's about 17.5% of the country's overall budget. And isn't most of the $5.6 billion largely self generated as well?
 
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Leaving aside the specific association to early 20th century movements, the term in general means any system of thought which does not tolerate dissent, views itself as the ultimate be all, and bestows upon its followers a special elite status to lead the unwashed masses to salvation. The element of coersion need not be physical; it may be purely intellectual.

It is, essentially, self-righteousness on steroids.

That is fascism of 20th century, one can't be a liberal and a person of above description simultaneously, it's an oxymoron, highest common denominator!

Once again, understand the context in which Liberal Fascism was coined by American Republicans.


Pashtun is an ethnicity, not a caste. As for the others, I have never met anyone who made bones about being one of these 'castes'. Frankly, I had never even heard of them before coming to this forum.

Let me refresh your memory -

Finally, this quaint concept of viewing everything through a prism of caste and ethnicity says more about the author, and perhaps the Indian mindset, than anything else.


See the problem is, nowhere does the author or me suggest that Pakistani Govt or Military discriminate people based on their ethnicity and cast, but ethnicity and caste matter at inheriting profession, children of traders are more likely to be trader while children of military officers are likely to enrol in military, here likely being the keyword. Let me quote the author again in case the liberal fascism of the author shadowed his words.



However, the Hindu Punjabis had a very large mercantile population, comprising Khatris, Aroras and the Vaish (Baniyas). They were the creators of wealth and are today all in India. Two of these castes (Khatris and Aroras) were present in strong numbers in the Sikhs. Muslims had very few Khatris and no Baniyas. This is why Pakistani Punjab, though it contains over half of Pakistan’s population, does not dominate the country’s economy.

Again, the linked article goes in depth about the disparity in the income tax regime. The author seems to think that tax revenue reflects productivity or GDP. The article explains why that is a misleading yardstick in Pakistan, given all the tax exemptions in place.


It may sound stereotypical, but as the author has said, it is impossible to understand India without being aware of caste and I see no reason why this should not be true for the area that used to be India till 65 years ago.


What makes you think the banks were founded and managed by native Karachiites?

That's what common sense says, don't think people of Lahore would control business in Karachi.

As an aside, just because many US financial institutions are incorporated in Delaware (for tax and liability reasons) does not mean the Delawarites are more entrepreneurial. In the case of Karachi, this is where the labor market is most favorable (of all ethnicities), so businesses base themselves there. This creates more incentive for people to move to Karachi, and the self-perpetuating circle repeats.

Poor analogy, US is almost homogeneous while India/Pakistan is not. Sindhis and Mohajir definitely played a major role to make Karachi what it is now.


Ah yes, the deliberately vague lead-ons...

Why don't you tell us your premise instead of going around on a wild goose chase?

It has been already said in the article and by me, if only you lot would actually read before going GA GA over liberal fascism. Off course it's volunteer army, that's why it's heavily skewed, because Punjabi Muslims have been historically enrolling themselves to the army.


Again, the linked article goes in depth about the disparity in the income tax regime. The author seems to think that tax revenue reflects productivity or GDP. The article explains why that is a misleading yardstick in Pakistan, given all the tax exemptions in place.

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

Well I'm at loss here, what GDP has to with it? Whatever Pakistani Govt spends on military has to come from the revenue generated by tax,and 50% of it comes from Karachi. Where is the confusion? It only shows unusual concentration of wealth around Karachi.
 
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Caste system and zaat is not the same thing at all. I don't know how to translate Zaat in english.
 
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It's also interesting that we never cease hearing lies about how the Army eats up 80% of the country's overall budget. Oh well, haters will continue to hate.
 
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