Why Pakistan’s army is more popular than its politicians

[53fd]

Since it's purely an Indian mindset to view everything through a colored prism of caste and ethnicity, then please explain the Pakistani mindset which results in Punjabi dominated Pakistani Army and negligible representation of Sindhis/Mohajirs in PA.

The Pakistan Army is not Punjabi dominated. I am a "Mohajir", & my grandfather was a Lt-General (rtrd), one of my uncles is a Lt-General (serving), & my cousin's husband is a Major-General in the Army. There are countless Brigadiers in my family as well.

Pakistan is also a Punjabi dominated country, as Punjabis comprise of about 55% (this includes the Saraiki, South Punjab people as well) of the country's population. And for your information, the Pakistan Army is a volunteer Army, so only those who apply can be enlisted.

A rough estimate shows that Punjabis comprise of 55.8% of the Pakistan's Army, Pakhtuns 15.4%, Baloch 2.4%, Sindhis 15.1%, & the remaining from Azad Kashmir/Gilgit-Baltistan/Urdu speaking communities. This is pretty comparable to the Pakistan's population by ethnic group.

 

[Areesh]

Since it's purely an Indian mindset to view everything through a colored prism of caste and ethnicity, then please explain the Pakistani mindset which results in Punjabi dominated Pakistani Army and negligible representation of Sindhis/Mohajirs in PA.

While Indian mindset seems to have been stuck somewhere way back in the past. Apparently this is Pakistani mindset.

ISLAMABAD, Sept 13: A planned effort is being made to revise the composition of the Pakistan Army by reducing the dominance of Punjab to a considerable level over a period of four years.

In 2001, the Punjabis constituted over 71 per cent of the army. The numerical strength was reduced in later years and has been brought down to just over 57 per cent this year. A further three per cent decrease in recruitment from that province is on the cards by 2011.

And for Sindhis and Mohajirs(lol).

A two per cent increase will be made in the number of Sindhis bringing their total strength to 17 per cent by 2011.

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And as Developereo said this is a volunteer army.

 

[LaBong]

The liberal fascist brigade are the people that are towards the extreme left on the political spectrum. How are 'these' liberals fascists? In 1946, George Orwell said that fascism has no meaning, but signifies "something not desirable". The factor behind fascism, that defines fascism is the (art of the) "cult of unity, & submitting yourself to a cause as a part of 'redemption' & bringing justice". Just like the Nazis mastered this art against the Jews, this can be applied to anything in the present era. The liberal brigade of today has mastered this art, without looking at the facts on the ground, to speak against the Pakistani establishment. This is what makes these liberals fascists. Just look at what Asma Jahangir (who I once had enormous respect for) said & did to the Supreme Court of Pakistan on the memo gate issue.



There are more than enough of them. I'll compile a list & let you know.

If that's liberal fascism, then it is suffice to say, you don't understand the context under which American right wingers coined the term!

 

[LaBong]

A fascist is a fascist, whatever other labels may apply to them. If in doubt, feel free to look up the definition of a fascist. I am not saying that this particular author is a liberal fascist. Just making a general comment about the term.

What is a fascist, dear Sir?

Good for you. We want nothing to do with castes. You can keep them.

Sure, I just hope people stop identifying themselves as Rajputs, Jatts, Pashtuns etc in Pakistan.

Did you read the link I provided? It answers his furphy about the disparity in government revenues.

Please explain how, this time not an one-liner.

For starters, just about every Pakistani bank is registered in Karachi.

Means Karachites are entrepreneurs, just as the author said.

You do realize it's a volunteer army?

You do realize that's the whole point?

 

[53fd]

If that's liberal fascism, then it is suffice to say, you don't understand the context under which American right wingers coined the term!

I know how they coined it, I've studied philosophy courses. I know what I am talking about. Fascism historically has been regarded as anti-liberalism (not talking about anti-conservativeness or anti-communism), but in my opinion, it is a flawed argument, as I have explained in detail that it can have its roots from liberalism as well. They are not contradictory. You failed to understand my post.

 

[LaBong]

While Indian mindset seems to have been stuck somewhere way back in the past. Apparently this is Pakistani mindset.



And for Sindhis and Mohajirs(lol).


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And as Developereo said this is a volunteer army.

I was about to show this link as a reply to Bilal Haider, but thanks for posting.

It was 71% at 2001, then PA coming under severe criticism tried to sort it out. This is not Pakistani mindset, this is professional army's mindset.

 

[Areesh]

It was 71% at 2001, then PA coming under severe criticism tried to sort it out. This is not Pakistani mindset, this is professional army's mindset.

The professional army belongs to Pakistan I guess. Hence I can safely assume it to be change/development in Pakistani mindset if you consider presence of 71% Punjabi's in professional army as Pakistani mindset.

 

[LaBong]

I know how they coined it, I've studied philosophy courses. I know what I am talking about. Fascism historically has been regarded as anti-liberalism (not talking about anti-conservativeness or anti-communism), but in my opinion, it is a flawed argument, as I have explained in detail that it can have its roots from liberalism as well. They are not contradictory. You failed to understand my post.

You failed to understand that fascism of 1930 and liberalism of 1930 had some intersecting ideas, that's the only point of liberal fascism trumpet blowers.

 

[53fd]

I was about to show this link as a reply to Bilal Haider, but thanks for posting.

It was 71% at 2001, then PA coming under severe criticism tried to sort it out. This is not Pakistani mindset, this is professional army's mindset.

What's your point? We're talking about the present, not the past. And the estimate I provided on the Pakistan Army's breakdown by ethnicity in the other post is correct.

---------- Post added at 04:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

You failed to understand that fascism of 1930 and liberalism of 1930 had some intersecting ideas, that's the only point of liberal fascism trumpet blowers.

The fascism of 1930 was both anti-liberalism & anti-conservativeness, it appeared centrist & moderate, but it was a 'deception'. But I have explained you the common denominators that define fascism are the (art of the) "cult of unity, & submitting yourself to a cause as a part of 'redemption' & bringing justice". And this fits in perfectly with the liberal brigade I was referring to as well. Period.

 

[LaBong]

The professional army belongs to Pakistan I guess. Hence I can safely assume it to be change/development in Pakistani mindset if you consider presence of 71% Punjabi's in professional army as Pakistani mindset.

The whole mindset thingy was invented by Developero, I was trying to show that ethnicity and caste do play a role in subcontinent, you can put it under the carpet but reality doesn't change.

 

[LaBong]

Bilal Haider reply:

What part of "cult of unity, & submitting yourself to a cause as a part of 'redemption' & bringing justice" fits with the author and how?

My point is, punjabis are more inclined to join army and sindhis are more inclined to do business, how does extrapolate to army being popular in Pakistan inference? I can guess but would rather wait for second part of the article.

 

[Developereo]

What is a fascist, dear Sir?

Leaving aside the specific association to early 20th century movements, the term in general means any system of thought which does not tolerate dissent, views itself as the ultimate be all, and bestows upon its followers a special elite status to lead the unwashed masses to salvation. The element of coersion need not be physical; it may be purely intellectual.

It is, essentially, self-righteousness on steroids.

Sure, I just hope people stop identifying themselves as Rajputs, Jatts, Pashtuns etc in Pakistan.

Pashtun is an ethnicity, not a caste. As for the others, I have never met anyone who made bones about being one of these 'castes'. Frankly, I had never even heard of them before coming to this forum.

Please explain how, this time not an one-liner.

Again, the linked article goes in depth about the disparity in the income tax regime. The author seems to think that tax revenue reflects productivity or GDP. The article explains why that is a misleading yardstick in Pakistan, given all the tax exemptions in place.

Means Karachites are entrepreneurs, just as the author said.

What makes you think the banks were founded and managed by native Karachiites?

As an aside, just because many US financial institutions are incorporated in Delaware (for tax and liability reasons) does not mean the Delawarites are more entrepreneurial. In the case of Karachi, this is where the labor market is most favorable (of all ethnicities), so businesses base themselves there. This creates more incentive for people to move to Karachi, and the self-perpetuating circle repeats.

You do realize that's the whole point?

Ah yes, the deliberately vague lead-ons...

Why don't you tell us your premise instead of going around on a wild goose chase?

 

[53fd]

Bilal Haider reply:

What part of "cult of unity, & submitting yourself to a cause as a part of 'redemption' & bringing justice" fits with the author and how?

Did I say the author was from the liberal fascist brigade?

My point is, punjabis are more inclined to join army and sindhis are more inclined to do business, how does extrapolate to army being popular in Pakistan inference? I can guess but would rather wait for second part of the article.

Your assumption is based on your opinions, & not based on any facts. I've given you the Pakistan Army breakdown by ethnicity, & it corresponds pretty well with the population of various ethnic groups in Pakistan. I don't care what the situation was like in 2001, I care about the present.

 

[Xeric]

Since it's purely an Indian mindset to view everything through a colored prism of caste and ethnicity, then please explain the Pakistani mindset which results in Punjabi dominated Pakistani Army and negligible representation of Sindhis/Mohajirs in PA.

Punjabis are the largest category of Pakistanis, wouldn't it be normal if their representation in every sphere (not only the Army) is dominating?

Nobody has ever stopped a particular ethnicity from joining the military or any other institution, and as Develpro pointed out, the Army is a voluntary one, one cannot bar or promote a particular group from joining it. Moreover, the Army has welcomed anyone (including) non-Muslims to opt for it as a profession.

Induction of Balochis in large numbers even at the stake of lowering our induction criteria is enough a proof:

The 2nd Selection/Enrollment of Balochi individuals has commenced from 2 May 09, it will stay in progress till 20 May 09.

The following relaxations have been granted to the candidates of Balochistan Domicile holders:-

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-f...histan-relaxation-standards-5.html#post372125
Category------------------------Standards

-------------------------For other--------For
-------------------------Provinces----Balochistan

Education----------------Matric--------8th Class

Height------------------167.5 cm-----162.5 cm

Chest-------------------78-83 cm-----74-79 cm

Age---------------------17-23 yrs------17-26 yrs

Recruitment currently being done at:-
Quetta
Loralai
Sibi
Khuzdar
Turbat

Moreover, Mobile Recruitment Teams (MRTs) would also visit remote areas of Balochistan for the purpose of recruitment.

Documents required:-
Local or Domicile Certificate (original and Photocopy)

Education Certificate (Original and Photocopy)

4 Passport Size Photos

Rs 50 as registration fee

Balochistan: One more step towards "National Integration"
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/87561-army-recruit-10-000-baloch-youth.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/134167-pakistan-army-5-000-baloch-jawans-passing-out-3.html

Also, there has been an increased representation of non-punjabis:

So it is really stupid to ask why the Punjabi's 'dominate' the military as there's no practice of discrimination whatsoever.

 

[LaBong]

Firefox isn't opening the last pages, and it's hard to reply from phone, will post once I reach home.