Why Pakistan’s army is more popular than its politicians

[gubbi]

Nice images. Good job.
However, many other countries' forces help the civilian administration in disaster management. How different is this from what you posted?

 

[Sugarcane]

Why is everyone so anti-establishment? Apparently, they are the good guys

 

[Imran Khan]

Nice images. Good job.
However, many other countries' forces help the civilian administration in disaster management. How different is this from what you posted?

gubbi please dear no BS our forces our love whats you guys pain even we love devil ?.

or its related to world issues ? world effected with our love?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Nice images. Good job.
However, many other countries' forces help the civilian administration in disaster management. How different is this from what you posted?

in those countries, the government may have played a more "convincing" enough role

the Turks have Kizilay, the Yanks have the Red Cross (we shouldnt learn from FEMA )

 

[gubbi]

in those countries, the government may have played a more "convincing" enough role

the Turks have Kizilay, the Yanks have the Red Cross (we shouldnt learn from FEMA )

Exactly. Unless people trust themselves and come up with an effective system of administration which is accountable for its mistakes and follies, a country cannot develop. Looking up to the army, which has no accountability, is NOT a safe mechanism for a country to exist and progress. You people are "chopping your own feet with an axe".

As for the old FEMA, I agree, the National Guards did an excellent job though. However, the new revamped FEMA is something else.

---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------

gubbi please dear no BS our forces our love whats you guys pain even we love devil ?.

or its related to world issues ? world effected with our love?

Your love is your business. Dont ask dont tell
I would rather you guys love your country and the systems you chose rather than blindly love something which has no accountability. Would you blindly love a serially cheating wife?

 

[Xeric]

Isnt it sad that this is the state of affairs? Your claim that the army is a representation of society throws a very bad light on Pakistani society. You dont have heroes among the common population who can be looked upon? Your army is answerable to none, no accountability for its actions whatsoever. Does this also reflect the Pakistani society?

Also, politicians are a reflection of a people. Your accusations against your own politicians says a lot about the society they come from and claim to represent.

Armed forces of all countries are the defenders of their respective nations. Armies exist to protect nations form existential and perceived threats. However, except for a few dictatorships and pariah states, the forces are answerable to their civilian masters, again showing that people have faith in their leaders and by extension in themselves.

The fact that people in Pakistan look up to the army - who has no accountability - as a role model and look down upon their politicians shows how much they trust themselves and how morally escapist the society is. Is this what is implied by your supporting of the army's meddling in national politics?

Right, just because the military has performed better than civilians (politicians - because it has no accountability, i wonder how can an institution be guud, leading and strong without a justice and accountability), it's again Army's fault. i am surprised by the double standards of you guys.

The basic understanding is that one doesnt get guud by maligning the other person, but rather by delivering more. Which the Army has indeed done. We may not be angles nor do we claim to be the best, but then UNFORTUNATELY our politicians have failed to stay at par with the military. For your comprehension, the success of this forum is the case under consideration.

Pakistani military is composed of people of Pakistan, not Martians. It's the same Pakistani who performs guud when he's in uniform, instead is counterpart in civvies (bureaucracy, politicians, civilian society etc) has lagged behind.

Downfall of our national institutes (PIA, Railways, WAPDA, Pak Steel, Agriculture, taxation, Policing, law and order, health etc) cannot be attributed to the military.

Corruption by politicians and bureaucracy cannot be blamed onto the military, rather it looks as if our civilians 'has no accountability' because if it had, corruption would have stopped/alteast lessened by now, but guess what, it has only increased. Military, by no means is immune to it, but then where you find a corrupt three star, you find ten grade 21s embezzling national wealth are a faster rate. Military has nothing to do with it.

People say the military should lower its (much needed) expenditure, i say you should kick start PIA, Pak Steel, Railways etc (three of these looses an amount equal to the entire defence budget of Pakistan annually!!!)

Again, it was not military who dont want to investigate Memogate, it's the ruling party that's ducking, now you tell me, whose ratings are going to rise? Gillani's or Zardari's?

The civilian govt is still for opening the NATO supply routes, the military wont allow it (yes it may be interfering into politics, but isnt it how it worls the world over, do you think the US startegy in Afg is only driven by Capitol Hill, the Pentagon and CIA has an equal if not a larger share in it). i have already pointed out elsewhere how the US State Dept's decision for a Presidential apology was over ruled by Pentagon and the CIA, after the Nov 26 attacks by NATO on Pakistani checkposts.

Do you think your country's stance in Kashmir is without your military's consent? Or was the occupation of Siachen a truly civilian decision (even if we assume for a moment that indian army did not get motivated by Col (then Major) N. Kumar (Bull) after he saw the map showing Siachen as Pakistani territory).

So whom are we kidding?

Pakistan Army earns respect because the people of Pakistan sees the military as the flagship of Pakistan, not because the military has obscured the facts (it's impossible in today's world with increased awareness and powerful mediums such as this forum and the internet), but because we have delivered more, and that's unfortunate. What we want is that the civilians should grow the balls and stay at the helm of our affairs, but for that to happen the civilians (politicians) have to work their way up themselves, nobody's stopping them.

In short, members here gets thanked more because they are better, not because they belittle fellow members, or else you havent joined PDF ands stayed on that BR.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Exactly. Unless people trust themselves and come up with an effective system of administration which is accountable for its mistakes and follies, a country cannot develop.

i agree

but in the past, even the N.A.B. was a politicized and crony-ist entity time to time. Accountability is indeed extremely important.

Looking up to the army, which has no accountability, is NOT a safe mechanism for a country to exist and progress. You people are "chopping your own feet with an axe".

I'm afraid you have no idea what ur talkin about and you are guilty of the same fallacy that some "experts" are guilty of

rhetoric sans facts. Give me facts and figures to prove to me that the army "has no accountability"

especially in light of the fact that the armies budget is debated by civilian parliamentarians, and the Army is answerable to the government

As for the old FEMA, I agree, the National Guards did an excellent job though. However, the new revamped FEMA is something else.

the national guard is essentially a militia

Your love is your business. Dont ask dont tell
I would rather you guys love your country and the systems you chose rather than blindly love something which has no accountability. Would you blindly love a serially cheating wife?

if i have such a shitty judgement of character that I marry a "serially cheating wife" then i have nobody to blame for except myself -for marrying a *****.

the Army is immediate blood family; not from outside and bonded via wedlock

 

[gubbi]

For your comprehension, the success of this forum is the case under consideration.

IIRC, this is a commercial forum, not owned by the PA, right? What has PA got to do with the success of this forum then?

Pakistani military is composed of people of Pakistan, not Martians. It's the same Pakistani who performs guud when he's in uniform, instead is counterpart in civvies (bureaucracy, politicians, civilian society etc) has lagged behind.

Downfall of our national institutes (PIA, Railways, WAPDA, Pak Steel, Agriculture, taxation, Policing, law and order, health etc) cannot be attributed to the military.

Actually it can. Half of Pakistan's existence was under PA rule, the other half with the PA interfering in the politics and policies of the govt. Now if a civilian govt is NOT given its due, how do you expect it to mature and perform? Priority was always given to the armed forces in Pakistan, which hogged the lion's share of the resources. How would other institutions flourish with adequate resources?

Corruption by politicians and bureaucracy cannot be blamed onto the military, rather it looks as if our civilians 'has no accountability' because if it had, corruption would have stopped/alteast lessened by now, but guess what, it has only increased. Military, by no means is immune to it, but then where you find a corrupt three star, you find ten grade 21s embezzling national wealth are a faster rate. Military has nothing to do with it.

Everytime PA took over the reigns, it was to cure the country of corrupt politicians. How did that work out? And yet, it is the PA who is the savior when it couldnt even attempt to control corruption? Where is the accountability for all those years in power and years meddling in the policies of the govt? Why is it that (according to your claims) Pakistanis in uniform are less corrupt than their counterparts in civilian posts? Doesnt that tell you about the general public mentality.

Again, it was not military who dont want to investigate Memogate, it's the ruling party that's ducking, now you tell me, whose ratings are going to rise? Gillani's or Zardari's?

Thats your internal power struggle between the PA and the civilian govt. A sad state of affairs indeed.

The civilian govt is still for opening the NATO supply routes, the military wont allow it (yes it may be interfering into politics, but isnt it how it worls the world over, do you think the US startegy in Afg is only driven by Capitol Hill, the Pentagon and CIA has an equal if not a larger share in it). i have already pointed out elsewhere how the US State Dept's decision for a Presidential apology was over ruled by Pentagon and the CIA, after the Nov 26 attacks by NATO on Pakistani checkposts.

You got a point there, but then again, the govt policies are a collective decision of all the three branches of the govt and all the departments concerned. At no point does the CIA or the US Armed forces control what the govt has to say. They are all under civilian control, unlike the PA. Also it is based on the nature of events. Dont forget that some elements of Taliban have covert support of PA in Afghanistan. Messy politics if you ask me.

Do you think your country's stance in Kashmir is without your military's consent? Or was the occupation of Siachen a truly civilian decision (even if we assume for a moment that indian army did not get motivated by Col (then Major) N. Kumar (Bull) after he saw the map showing Siachen as Pakistani territory).

Oh yes. GoI has the Armed forces under firm civilian control. The chiefs cannot have any say in the inter politics of our country, cannot have any say in framing of internal or external policies of the country. I dont know what propaganda you have been reading. Kashmir is a political decision of GoI. Period. As was Siachen. IA cannot just up and start and expedition, unlike PA.

Pakistan Army earns respect because the people of Pakistan sees the military as the flagship of Pakistan, not because the military has obscured the facts (it's impossible in today's world with increased awareness and powerful mediums such as this forum and the internet), but because we have delivered more, and that's unfortunate. What we want is that the civilians should grow the balls and stay at the helm of our affairs, but for that to happen the civilians (politicians) have to work their way up themselves, nobody's stopping them.

Sad state of affairs, no? That there are no persons capable enough from the population to represent the collective voice of the people. That an institution - much feared and with no accountability for its actions -is looked upon as the savior?

In short, members here gets thanked more because they are better, not because they belittle fellow members, or else you havent joined PDF ands stayed on that BR.

Not this BS again. Its my choice what I do. No?

 

[gubbi]

I'm afraid you have no idea what ur talkin about and you are guilty of the same fallacy that some "experts" are guilty of
rhetoric sans facts. Give me facts and figures to prove to me that the army "has no accountability" especially in light of the fact that the armies budget is debated by civilian parliamentarians, and the Army is answerable to the government

I am no expert. But for accountability, Kargil come to mind. Repeated coups come to mind. Killing of ZAB, however corrupt you may accuse him to be, come to mind. Meddling in the affairs of the govt and accusing the govt for the failures comes to mind. How many heads rolled? Who was punished for those follies?
The fact that PA's budget is NOT debated and the PA is NOT answerable to the civilian govt (although constitutionally it does) comes to mind.
Pakistan’s Defence Budget: Cloaked in Secrecy

very year there are demands from politicians, the media and members of civil society that the burgeoning defence budget be discussed in detail in parliament. The general practice has been to dismiss the defence budget in a cursory manner, without providing any details. The excuse given year after year is that it is not in the national interest to publicly discuss the defence budget.
However, in a departure from the norm, the budget for 2011-12 gives a breakdown of what used to be a one-line budget provision.

The fact that foreign policy is dictated by the army and not the civilian govt is an indicator how powerful and meddlesome the army is.

the national guard is essentially a militia

A part of the US armed forces. Under civilian control.

 

[Xeric]

IIRC, this is a commercial forum, not owned by the PA, right? What has PA got to do with the success of this forum then?

Common sense. People surely lack it.

i was just trying to tell you how the success of this forum (just like the popularity of Army) is because of its accountability, prevalence of merit and better performance of its members, which ofcourse was too subtle for you to understand.

Actually it can. Half of Pakistan's existence was under PA rule, the other half with the PA interfering in the politics and policies of the govt. Now if a civilian govt is NOT given its due, how do you expect it to mature and perform? Priority was always given to the armed forces in Pakistan, which hogged the lion's share of the resources. How would other institutions flourish with adequate resources?

The performance of these institution of the highest under the military rules. Get your facts straight.

Pak Steel was flourishing under Musharraf, the max no of educational institutions were opened during Musharraf's era then they were ever opened in our history, the economy was blooming under him, and to cut it short, every major achievement by Pakistan was taken during military rules, which ofcourse you seem to lack the knowledge about.

Everytime PA took over the reigns, it was to cure the country of corrupt politicians. How did that work out? And yet, it is the PA who is the savior when it couldnt even attempt to control corruption? Where is the accountability for all those years in power and years meddling in the policies of the govt? Why is it that (according to your claims) Pakistanis in uniform are less corrupt than their counterparts in civilian posts? Doesnt that tell you about the general public mentality.

It did cure the disease to an extent everytime, only to make a round back to square one when the civilians took over.

Thats your internal power struggle between the PA and the civilian govt. A sad state of affairs indeed.

See, when the civilians in our country screws up, it becomes our internal power struggle, but when the military delivers, it starts to itch your behinds, mind blowing double standards.

You got a point there, but then again, the govt policies are a collective decision of all the three branches of the govt and all the departments concerned. At no point does the CIA or the US Armed forces control what the govt has to say. They are all under civilian control, unlike the PA. Also it is based on the nature of events. Dont forget that some elements of Taliban have covert support of PA in Afghanistan. Messy politics if you ask me.

i have a given a very recent example of the US affairs regarding the Nov 26 incident, feel free to turn a deaf ear to it, ofcourse while carrying double standards one cannot comment objectively. It is surprising to know that when the same practises are carried out by other countries you blatantly deny the military hand behind the scene, whereas when it comes to Pakistan, even a matter of the military undertaking a public service is seen by yourself has military intervention and it being unaccountable, hats off to your dheetai

Oh yes. GoI has the Armed forces under firm civilian control. The chiefs cannot have any say in the inter politics of our country, cannot have any say in framing of internal or external policies of the country. I dont know what propaganda you have been reading. Kashmir is a political decision of GoI. Period. As was Siachen. IA cannot just up and start and expedition, unlike PA.

See, like as said, one's own house always seems clean to everyone, it's only the neighbor's house that create problems.

Empirical evidence, indeed!

Sad state of affairs, no? That there are no persons capable enough from the population to represent the collective voice of the people. That an institution - much feared and with no accountability for its actions -is looked upon as the savior?

If a clerk takes bribe in Pakistan, blame it on the unaccountability of the military, the same issue gets blamed onto the civilian govt in india, wow, what did you smoke today, dude?

Not this BS again. Its my choice what I do. No?

Na..na...dil bara kar yaar, blame this on the non-accountability of Pakistan Army too!

 

[manojb]

The Fauji Foundation (FF), is one of the largest conglomerates in Pakistan, with interests in fertilizer, cement, food, power generation, gas exploration, LPG marketing and distribution, financial services, employment services, and security services. It is run by former officers of Pakistani Armed Forces.[1]

Can someone give example of a charity organization become profit making conglomerate?

 

[Xeric]

The Fauji Foundation (FF), is one of the largest conglomerates in Pakistan, with interests in fertilizer, cement, food, power generation, gas exploration, LPG marketing and distribution, financial services, employment services, and security services. It is run by former officers of Pakistani Armed Forces.[1]

Can someone give example of a charity organization become profit making conglomerate?

They are not 'charity' organizations, rather welfare organizations. Learn before you try to troll (and fail).

 

[fd24]

lol why you are comparing India's politicians with yours? do you even know what does it mean when someone says sour grapes?
let me tell you in simple English. since you have a bad civilian government, hence you like your army rule over democracy. hence sour grapes. in other words - no other choice but to like the army. it seems you have been a bad student.


that's what i said. a poor civilian leaders or government. hence you like army and no other option. now tell me - why you were talking about India's politician?

Firstly you suggested we have sour grapes. This is a phrase reserved for people that want something others have and cant have hence decide that its not worth having after all. This is complete twaddle. You are suggesting India has something that we want and then you attempt to pretend you didnt mean that? - our forefathers sacrificed so so much - the last thing we want is the secular method of government your country has to offer. I dont wish to talk about your government - its off topic and that would be trolling - something you seem to have a degree in.
Everytime the country has been led by the army our economy and country has done well - hence i commend the army.
Why are you so obsessed with our nation? Whether we have a civilian government or army - is the obssession so deep you have to be on here having wet dreams of fascination?

It will improve and your dream of obssession will gog on and on and on. Now take your trolling and park it where the sun shine.

 

[VCheng]

They are not 'charity' organizations, rather welfare organizations. .................

Welfare of the military at the price of the welfare of the whole nation that it protects is not sustainable in the long term; that is the only problem in this picture.

 

[fd24]

Welfare of the military at the price of the welfare of the whole nation that it protects is not sustainable in the long term; that is the only problem in this picture.

VC - you are fully aware the guy was attempting to troll. I think our army chiefs are well able to maintain law and order whenever required. Havent got a problem. You should come back to Pakistan and meet some of our soldiers and share your beliefs with them. Im sure you would be an instant hit with them.