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Nice images. Good job.
However, many other countries' forces help the civilian administration in disaster management. How different is this from what you posted?
Nice images. Good job.
However, many other countries' forces help the civilian administration in disaster management. How different is this from what you posted?
in those countries, the government may have played a more "convincing" enough role
the Turks have Kizilay, the Yanks have the Red Cross (we shouldnt learn from FEMA )
gubbi please dear no BS our forces our love whats you guys pain even we love devil ?.
or its related to world issues ? world effected with our love?
Right, just because the military has performed better than civilians (politicians - because it has no accountability, i wonder how can an institution be guud, leading and strong without a justice and accountability), it's again Army's fault. i am surprised by the double standards of you guys.Isnt it sad that this is the state of affairs? Your claim that the army is a representation of society throws a very bad light on Pakistani society. You dont have heroes among the common population who can be looked upon? Your army is answerable to none, no accountability for its actions whatsoever. Does this also reflect the Pakistani society?
Also, politicians are a reflection of a people. Your accusations against your own politicians says a lot about the society they come from and claim to represent.
Armed forces of all countries are the defenders of their respective nations. Armies exist to protect nations form existential and perceived threats. However, except for a few dictatorships and pariah states, the forces are answerable to their civilian masters, again showing that people have faith in their leaders and by extension in themselves.
The fact that people in Pakistan look up to the army - who has no accountability - as a role model and look down upon their politicians shows how much they trust themselves and how morally escapist the society is. Is this what is implied by your supporting of the army's meddling in national politics?
Exactly. Unless people trust themselves and come up with an effective system of administration which is accountable for its mistakes and follies, a country cannot develop.
Looking up to the army, which has no accountability, is NOT a safe mechanism for a country to exist and progress. You people are "chopping your own feet with an axe".
As for the old FEMA, I agree, the National Guards did an excellent job though. However, the new revamped FEMA is something else.
Your love is your business. Dont ask dont tell
I would rather you guys love your country and the systems you chose rather than blindly love something which has no accountability. Would you blindly love a serially cheating wife?
IIRC, this is a commercial forum, not owned by the PA, right? What has PA got to do with the success of this forum then?For your comprehension, the success of this forum is the case under consideration.
Actually it can. Half of Pakistan's existence was under PA rule, the other half with the PA interfering in the politics and policies of the govt. Now if a civilian govt is NOT given its due, how do you expect it to mature and perform? Priority was always given to the armed forces in Pakistan, which hogged the lion's share of the resources. How would other institutions flourish with adequate resources?Pakistani military is composed of people of Pakistan, not Martians. It's the same Pakistani who performs guud when he's in uniform, instead is counterpart in civvies (bureaucracy, politicians, civilian society etc) has lagged behind.
Downfall of our national institutes (PIA, Railways, WAPDA, Pak Steel, Agriculture, taxation, Policing, law and order, health etc) cannot be attributed to the military.
Everytime PA took over the reigns, it was to cure the country of corrupt politicians. How did that work out? And yet, it is the PA who is the savior when it couldnt even attempt to control corruption? Where is the accountability for all those years in power and years meddling in the policies of the govt? Why is it that (according to your claims) Pakistanis in uniform are less corrupt than their counterparts in civilian posts? Doesnt that tell you about the general public mentality.Corruption by politicians and bureaucracy cannot be blamed onto the military, rather it looks as if our civilians 'has no accountability' because if it had, corruption would have stopped/alteast lessened by now, but guess what, it has only increased. Military, by no means is immune to it, but then where you find a corrupt three star, you find ten grade 21s embezzling national wealth are a faster rate. Military has nothing to do with it.
Thats your internal power struggle between the PA and the civilian govt. A sad state of affairs indeed.Again, it was not military who dont want to investigate Memogate, it's the ruling party that's ducking, now you tell me, whose ratings are going to rise? Gillani's or Zardari's?
You got a point there, but then again, the govt policies are a collective decision of all the three branches of the govt and all the departments concerned. At no point does the CIA or the US Armed forces control what the govt has to say. They are all under civilian control, unlike the PA. Also it is based on the nature of events. Dont forget that some elements of Taliban have covert support of PA in Afghanistan. Messy politics if you ask me.The civilian govt is still for opening the NATO supply routes, the military wont allow it (yes it may be interfering into politics, but isnt it how it worls the world over, do you think the US startegy in Afg is only driven by Capitol Hill, the Pentagon and CIA has an equal if not a larger share in it). i have already pointed out elsewhere how the US State Dept's decision for a Presidential apology was over ruled by Pentagon and the CIA, after the Nov 26 attacks by NATO on Pakistani checkposts.
Oh yes. GoI has the Armed forces under firm civilian control. The chiefs cannot have any say in the inter politics of our country, cannot have any say in framing of internal or external policies of the country. I dont know what propaganda you have been reading. Kashmir is a political decision of GoI. Period. As was Siachen. IA cannot just up and start and expedition, unlike PA.Do you think your country's stance in Kashmir is without your military's consent? Or was the occupation of Siachen a truly civilian decision (even if we assume for a moment that indian army did not get motivated by Col (then Major) N. Kumar (Bull) after he saw the map showing Siachen as Pakistani territory).
Sad state of affairs, no? That there are no persons capable enough from the population to represent the collective voice of the people. That an institution - much feared and with no accountability for its actions -is looked upon as the savior?Pakistan Army earns respect because the people of Pakistan sees the military as the flagship of Pakistan, not because the military has obscured the facts (it's impossible in today's world with increased awareness and powerful mediums such as this forum and the internet), but because we have delivered more, and that's unfortunate. What we want is that the civilians should grow the balls and stay at the helm of our affairs, but for that to happen the civilians (politicians) have to work their way up themselves, nobody's stopping them.
Not this BS again. Its my choice what I do. No?In short, members here gets thanked more because they are better, not because they belittle fellow members, or else you havent joined PDF ands stayed on that BR.
I am no expert. But for accountability, Kargil come to mind. Repeated coups come to mind. Killing of ZAB, however corrupt you may accuse him to be, come to mind. Meddling in the affairs of the govt and accusing the govt for the failures comes to mind. How many heads rolled? Who was punished for those follies?I'm afraid you have no idea what ur talkin about and you are guilty of the same fallacy that some "experts" are guilty of
rhetoric sans facts. Give me facts and figures to prove to me that the army "has no accountability" especially in light of the fact that the armies budget is debated by civilian parliamentarians, and the Army is answerable to the government
The fact that foreign policy is dictated by the army and not the civilian govt is an indicator how powerful and meddlesome the army is.very year there are demands from politicians, the media and members of civil society that the burgeoning defence budget be discussed in detail in parliament. The general practice has been to dismiss the defence budget in a cursory manner, without providing any details. The excuse given year after year is that it is not in the national interest to publicly discuss the defence budget.
However, in a departure from the norm, the budget for 2011-12 gives a breakdown of what used to be a one-line budget provision.
A part of the US armed forces. Under civilian control.the national guard is essentially a militia
Common sense. People surely lack it.IIRC, this is a commercial forum, not owned by the PA, right? What has PA got to do with the success of this forum then?
The performance of these institution of the highest under the military rules. Get your facts straight.Actually it can. Half of Pakistan's existence was under PA rule, the other half with the PA interfering in the politics and policies of the govt. Now if a civilian govt is NOT given its due, how do you expect it to mature and perform? Priority was always given to the armed forces in Pakistan, which hogged the lion's share of the resources. How would other institutions flourish with adequate resources?
Everytime PA took over the reigns, it was to cure the country of corrupt politicians. How did that work out? And yet, it is the PA who is the savior when it couldnt even attempt to control corruption? Where is the accountability for all those years in power and years meddling in the policies of the govt? Why is it that (according to your claims) Pakistanis in uniform are less corrupt than their counterparts in civilian posts? Doesnt that tell you about the general public mentality.
Thats your internal power struggle between the PA and the civilian govt. A sad state of affairs indeed.
i have a given a very recent example of the US affairs regarding the Nov 26 incident, feel free to turn a deaf ear to it, ofcourse while carrying double standards one cannot comment objectively. It is surprising to know that when the same practises are carried out by other countries you blatantly deny the military hand behind the scene, whereas when it comes to Pakistan, even a matter of the military undertaking a public service is seen by yourself has military intervention and it being unaccountable, hats off to your dheetaiYou got a point there, but then again, the govt policies are a collective decision of all the three branches of the govt and all the departments concerned. At no point does the CIA or the US Armed forces control what the govt has to say. They are all under civilian control, unlike the PA. Also it is based on the nature of events. Dont forget that some elements of Taliban have covert support of PA in Afghanistan. Messy politics if you ask me.
See, like as said, one's own house always seems clean to everyone, it's only the neighbor's house that create problems.Oh yes. GoI has the Armed forces under firm civilian control. The chiefs cannot have any say in the inter politics of our country, cannot have any say in framing of internal or external policies of the country. I dont know what propaganda you have been reading. Kashmir is a political decision of GoI. Period. As was Siachen. IA cannot just up and start and expedition, unlike PA.
If a clerk takes bribe in Pakistan, blame it on the unaccountability of the military, the same issue gets blamed onto the civilian govt in india, wow, what did you smoke today, dude?Sad state of affairs, no? That there are no persons capable enough from the population to represent the collective voice of the people. That an institution - much feared and with no accountability for its actions -is looked upon as the savior?
Na..na...dil bara kar yaar, blame this on the non-accountability of Pakistan Army too!Not this BS again. Its my choice what I do. No?
The Fauji Foundation (FF), is one of the largest conglomerates in Pakistan, with interests in fertilizer, cement, food, power generation, gas exploration, LPG marketing and distribution, financial services, employment services, and security services. It is run by former officers of Pakistani Armed Forces.[1]
Can someone give example of a charity organization become profit making conglomerate?
lol why you are comparing India's politicians with yours? do you even know what does it mean when someone says sour grapes?
let me tell you in simple English. since you have a bad civilian government, hence you like your army rule over democracy. hence sour grapes. in other words - no other choice but to like the army. it seems you have been a bad student.
that's what i said. a poor civilian leaders or government. hence you like army and no other option. now tell me - why you were talking about India's politician?
They are not 'charity' organizations, rather welfare organizations. .................
Welfare of the military at the price of the welfare of the whole nation that it protects is not sustainable in the long term; that is the only problem in this picture.