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Why Pakistan does not recognize to Israel ?

حقیقتا فلسطین کو اس وقت مدد کی ضرورت ہے۔ لیکن کم از کم اخلاقی طور پر تو اسے مسلہ کشمیر پر پاکستان کی طرف داری کرنی چاہیئے۔
لیکن فلسطین مسلہ کشمیر پر ''غیرجانبداری'' دکھارہا ہے۔ غیرجانبداری کا مطلب بھارت کی حمایت ہے۔
پتہ نہیں آپ کون سی دنیا میں رہ رہے ہیں؟ فلسطین کے لوگ بہت زیادہ مصیبت میں ہیں ۔ امارات میں ہمارے ساتھ فلسطینی بھی ہیں اور کشمیری بھی۔ کشمیری سوائے چند علاقوں کے باقی لوگ امن سے اپنی زندگی گزار رہے ہیں ۔ سوائے اکا دکا واقعات کے علاوہ، لیکن فلسطین کے لوگوں کو بہت زیادہ مشکالات کا سامنا ہے۔ زچگی کی حالت میں عورتوں کو چودہ پندرہ چیک پوسٹوں سے گزرنا پڑتا ہے، کمشیر میں ایسا نہیں ہے۔ آئے روز انکے اوپر جہازوں سے بمباری ہوتی ہے لیکن کشمیر میں ایسا نہیں۔ بنیادی طور پر کشمیری تاجر اور پرامن لوگ ہیں ۔ صرف چند لوگ ہیں ادھر جو کہ آزادی طلب کر رہے ہیں۔ لیکن فلسطین کا بچہ بچہ ازادی کا طلب گار ہے۔
 
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Truly said.. both Pakistan and Israel were created at nearly same time both on religious ideology -
This is a common mis-perception about Israel. Allow me to correct it:

1) Jews are a people.
2) Judaism is the Jews' religion.
3) Under Israel's Law of Return you are a Jew if your mother was Jewish, or if you've abandoned any other religion and joined the Jewish people through supervised religious conversion.

So you can even be a Muslim or Christian and immigrate to Israel, provided your mother was Jewish. You can be a Jewish Israeli and convert to Islam or Christianity. And you're not a "bad Israeli" simply because you choose to eat pork on Yom Kippur, or are Ahmedi, or break your egg on the small end instead of the big one.

It's the peoplehood that matters to be an Israeli, not the religious observance. Thus today's Israelis experience only low levels of intra-religious conflict and are spared from the sort of upward spiral of religious- and power-seeking militancy that has plagued Pakistan.
 
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OK thank you for the discussion....

But to what will israel listen to us on?
The question is not about US recognition of Israel though we did question to what did Israel listen so far to?

I mean simply saying UN has requested their presence in Israel (after recognizing it) but so far israel has refused it...How much help was that?

UK protests every fight israel launches on Palestinians....how has that made israel weak in the knees?

Let say for the sake of argument that we recognize Israel, what do we hold that will make it listen? Do we have a stronghold to let in our comments or will we play the puppet UN role?

Take a step back first, before answering those questions, let me ask, as I haven't asked this before:
Do you only protest Israel's actions or the entirety of the state and seek to not recognize its existence, so that you can deny its existence or so that you can limit it to whatever decent standard we may see fit?

Now if the answer is that you wish for a 2 state solution, then without need of further forethought you should be accepting to the idea of recognising Israel. We in our current state, we are not even in the picture, we're a country of 200 million, disconnected with thousands miles of land and sea, Israel despite being tiny, has a much larger GDP and we have hardly any trade with them either, they have the backing of the most powerful nation and the blessing of the richest block of nations (or so it may seem to us).

So what do you propose be done to further the cause of peace and of legitimate Palestinian statehood? Although Pakistan will remain not very relevant, until it can build up the economy and be a larger player... in the mean time, do we continue to be distant protesters that do literally nothing productive and even when applying pressure be our wish? We're not in any position to issue forth any said pressure, even though none may gainsay us in our wrath and rage at seeing the injustice.

For what little we can do, I'd suggest we recognise Israel, build diplomatic and trade relations, and then see ourselves to be in a position of influence, albeit minor influence, and use it as leverage, as ground for conversation and relations to voice our concerns when necessary, take concrete steps to make our protest heard, and if not heard, then may it be felt. Other reasons for doing this is that it places the Israelis and their supporters in a positions where they cannot delegitimise our protest simply because we already take an extreme stance on their nation, and that in said knowledge they would not wish to heed anything that we say. They can't take the stance that all the Muslim world is somehow against them and that no peace can be had thus with us. The neutral powers can look and perceive that Israel would seek to deny statehood for Palestine yet all the other Muslim nations might recognise it and advise it to seek a resolution.

Such steps would then also further dent Israel credibility at a diplomatic level and among neutral powers. Right now, the current approach is neither productive nor useful. If we don't try any other way, it is solely because of our pride and in its end it is folly, and perhaps even counter productive.

Extremely well argued. The already significant change in Israeli Foreign Policy posture critical issues like Iran suggest that US is not playing ball with Israel and for once it is Israel which has to bend to accommodate US.

Pakistan is a fringe player in Israeli - Palestinian politics with no direct stakes and it will remain so as long as it continues with it's naïve policy which is atleast overtly that Israel is bad. Diplomacy needs to be conduct with a touch of empathy and an understanding of the issues faced by other side too. Pakistan has to realised that Palestine issue is multi-layered and complex with both sides having legitimate concerns, requiring a nuanced approach not a faulty principled one.

Absolutely true, I agree. As far as where Pakistanis are in the picture (or perhaps that they aren't in the picture), the current approach has done literally nothing. A few truths need to be accepted when it comes to these issues, and a stand on where we see an end resolution recognised before we seek to do anything at all.

So far it seems to me, Pakistanis are angry, but don't want to do anything drastic, worked up but unable to be heard. We do not have any issues with the state of Israel to with regards to our own state or see it as a threat, yet we're angered by the treatment of Palestinians, yet for that we do not wish to see Israel obliterated or any extreme resolution that means bloodshed, yet for the question of resolution... it is unclear whether we are even ready to recognize Israel as a state, and here we are discussing end resolutions and our stance.

With that in mind, the only end result I can see of the status quo, is end resolution in Pakistani minds being; no more Israel, be it by war in which we play no part or by the will of God. Which as an end result, is neither a solution, nor is it practical, or reasonable or humane.

If you are making case for Pakistan recognizing Israel, that doesn't bother me. All Arab states already do, I'm just telling you that won't make a difference because local nations are not interested in using any kind of gain to promote peace. If you understood Arab politics you'd understand it.

I agree. In our current position, even if we were to take steps, this way or that and then voice our concern, it will do little. But... that little is more than what we're doing now.

@Jungibaaz
I appreciate your response and the sense that it makes, but you are looking at it from the British perspective. The UK enjoys ties with Israel and have had a part in its formation. I don't believe Pakistan will be able to do anything for Palestine with or without relations with Israel. It has no reason to listen to what we might have to say.

Sad to say this, but we tend to exaggerate our own importance in the world. We are a regional power with regional limits to our foreign policy.

I don't doubt that, as I've said above, our importance is next to nothing not because of our approach, but more because of our lack of power, economic might or any relevance to geopolitics of the immediate region in discussion.

But for the question of recognising Israel? Why not? Surely, if our will is to see a workable solution, we must arrive to this stage sometime? And why not build relations and use them for the purpose of pressing for peace, even if our voices are faint and our ability lacking? It would be better for all for us to recognise the state, even if that means only slightly better for all. The only thing that might prevent us at this point from recognising Israel is perhaps our anger and pride, and even that I've argued is misplaced if our intention is for our protest to be constructive rather than just for protest' sake.
 
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Does Israel deserve the right to exist? Will anyone allow someone to come and occupy their lands and create a nation? It's the fatal failure of the entire islamic world which don't have balls to standup for their brethren against the few thousand Jews. This humiliation is enough till the existence of humanity for the Muslim world.

Those few thousand Jews have the backing of the most powerful country in the world...MURIIICAA, or AIPAC. As long as USA stands by ISrael, no one can do shit to Israel.
 
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They are not few thousand, but more than 500 000 000 in the world But I won't be surprised if there numbers is more or less 1 000 000 000.
They are very well organized in nearly every country.... All there media storm about holocaust is a big propaganda...

In WWII, there was roughly 60 millions European people dead. But we hear only about holocaust about Jewish people.

It s true that they were specifically targeted at the end But we have to go ahead.. The world have to go ahead. We have to think for the future of the humanity... Unfortunately we all are selfish as individuals, as a tribe, as a nation, as a group...


And by the way, they are not backed by the most powerful country... We have to accept that they made the country the most powerful...
 
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You realise the Indian President is now in Israel? You think Pakistan (a nation who the PM of Israel can't even stand to eat in the same restaurant as) is in a position to cozy up to Israel because India still has some (legacy) support for Palestine's existence?
 
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@ topic:

Because of single digit IQ level of most of our policy makers.
 
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Good going... What's next?

Never gonna happen, rejecting Israel's right to exist is in our creed

Quaid e Azam Muhammed Ali Jinnah said

“We Musalmans of India, are one with the Arab world on this issue. It is not a question of a National Home for Jews in Palestine. It is a question of Jews reconquering Palestine, which they had lost 2000 years ago, with the help of British bayonets and American money. I have no enmity against Jews. I know they were treated very badly in some parts of civilized Europe. But why should Palestine be dumped with such a large number of Jews? If Jews want to reconquer Palestine, let them face Arabs without British or American help.”

Sir Allama Iqbal wrote

“If the Jew had a right to the soil of Palestine, Why can’t the Arab lay claim to Spain? No, British Imperialism has other aims. It’s no tale of citron, honey or dates.”
 
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Does Israel deserve the right to exist? Will anyone allow someone to come and occupy their lands and create a nation? It's the fatal failure of the entire islamic world which don't have balls to standup for their brethren against the few thousand Jews. This humiliation is enough till the existence of humanity for the Muslim world.

There are many instances of the past histroy which can be cited about the cruelity or the Islamic rules in the last which is much more than what happens in Isreal and Palestine? So if we really start looking for settling the scores violently because of some incorrect thing that has happened earlier then the world will be always at the war...So best solution is Isreal is not going anywhere..If any one is thinking that the entire mass of people of Israel will be evaculated or forced to go out of that place, then you are living in a dream land...

A peaceful solution of coexistence is needed where both the people from Palestine as well as Israel can leave happily is needed to end this problem..

Why Palestine isn't supporting Pakistan on the Kashmir issue ?

They might be supporting it...But will it help you if also they support it?? Rather it will help you if Isreal supports your Kashmir stand...

That's so naive post .. honoring India with a street name doesn't mean supporting it against Pak , and the answer for you question ( Because F*** Israel , that's why).


Spot on...I like your answer...And on top of it, why do Pakistan people always think that if also they are in a goody goody relation with India, it is not always directed against Pakistan...That is an unfair comparison. Being a friend of Palestine, Pakistan should understand the position of Palestine in a more responsible way.
 
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کیا بکواس ہے ہم مسلمان ہیں اور اسرائیل کو تسلیم نہیں کر سکتے. فلسطینی عربی ہونے سے پہلے مسلمان بھی ہیں.
 
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Trust my word..The geopolitics of middle east is going ion after Iran sanction is lifted, one group either from Arabs or from Iran is going to join hand with Israel for their own survival...And everyone knows who will be the party here...Emotions and all these logical things are applicable for certain extent...But for the people of Arabs, Arab interest is primary and for Iran, its own nationalistic values are primary. And both these groups used the Palestine cause to achieve their own stated objective...

We are emotional people who are just fighting for the cause and taking a positions, which is good in morale sense, but the stakeholders are sooner or later are going for reallignment...

Think practically, if Arabs and Iran do not reconcile each other and their relation turns bad after US and Iran patch up with each other, then who else apart from US can stand by Arabs to fight with Iran??? The answer to this question will give a clue about how the middle east politics is shaping up in next years
 
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Never gonna happen, rejecting Israel's right to exist is in our creed

Quaid e Azam Muhammed Ali Jinnah said
“We Musalmans of India, are one with the Arab world on this issue. It is not a question of a National Home for Jews in Palestine. It is a question of Jews reconquering Palestine, which they had lost 2000 years ago, with the help of British bayonets and American money. I have no enmity against Jews. I know they were treated very badly in some parts of civilized Europe. But why should Palestine be dumped with such a large number of Jews? If Jews want to reconquer Palestine, let them face Arabs without British or American help.”
So that's it. The objection to Israel is that the Jews returned peacefully, purchasing land with Western money under a Western legal system respecting property and civil rights, whereas the only "correct" way to do it was the way Jinnah eventually did, by spilling the blood of hundreds of thousands of people, both innocent civilians and soldiers in battle.

Is that really a worthy "creed"?

Sir Allama Iqbal wrote
“If the Jew had a right to the soil of Palestine, Why can’t the Arab lay claim to Spain? No, British Imperialism has other aims. It’s no tale of citron, honey or dates.”
Israel is the Jews' homeland while Arabia is the Arabs'. The Jews didn't pop in and steal with the sword, claiming past ownership: they respected squatters' rights and bought land in the Palestine Mandate from Arabs, received it by sovereign grant, and after independence transferred abandoned property to Jewish ownership under laws almost exactly the same as those of Britain.

So which narrative should Pakistanis adhere to - the peaceful return of Jews to their homeland decried by Jinnah, or the warlike one invoked by Iqbal? You can't have both, can you - not unless you're not interested in truth and justice, but instead only interested in bashing Jews.
 
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