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Why Pakistan Army is Quiet on Drone Attack
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Indus Pakistan
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I am very well aware of the internal divisions in Pakistan. Yes, of course many things and claims are made. Similar to how comments were made about Sikhs during the Khalistan days.
However to start making claims that policy is driven on that basis is very dangerous and wrong thing to do. Down that road lies perdition. Over the decades large numbers of people from differant ethnic groups have moved to various parts of the country. For example Karachi now has more Pashtun than Kabul or Peshawar. I suspect the numbers in Karachi to be even higher than cited because the status quo parties in that city would lose out if the census showed the true numbers. That is another subject altogether.
However the critical point you make and which carries on the face of it substance is the differance in the force profile used in insurgency between Pakistan and India. As you mention the Maoist rebels and use of air power. What you forget is that insurgent forces in India and Pakistan are on another universe.
The TTP and other attached fighters on the FATA region are nothing less than Gebirgjager infantry assault teams. These deadly "jager" units of TTP are more than match for any mountain units in the world. They have full firepower and the terrain to match including anti tank/helicopter missiles. This is not surprising as this region was the marshalling yard for the jihadi fighters who took on the Soviet Army. Since than they have had brushed against NATO. So to compare the rag tag Maoists with the hardened fighers of TTP is entirely wrong. Thus the differant approach.
Naxals in India
TTP in Pakistan
They have even been caught with captured US Humvees.
Something else you might like to consider. Naxals are mostly from communties that are on the fringes of Indian society whereas the TTP are mostly Pashtun and large percentage of the Pak Army is made up of Pashtuns - that includes soldiers and officers. Similar to the Sikh composition in India army.
I think the points you raise might carry traction if it was Baloch but certainly in this instance I am afraid your on the wrong track. I know this is favourite of our Afghan friends who bring this "Punjab Army" issue up regulary although they overlook that ANA has disproportionate numbers of Tajiks and Hazarahs. It could be easily called "Tajik Army".
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livingdead
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maoists lack firepower, but they know how to use the terrain to their advantage. You must be reading every once a while tens (if not hundreds) of police/central armed force personnel being killed, and govt of India declaring it the biggest internal security challenge(above kashmir or NE). Surely it must be tempting to use air assets to soften the target, and reduce casualty of troops. We cant even agree to bring army there.(its an ongoing debate)I am very well aware of the internal divisions in Pakistan. Yes, of course many things and claims are made. Similar to how comments were made about Sikhs during the Khalistan days.
However to start making claims that policy is driven on that basis is very dangerous and wrong thing to do. Down that road lies perdition. Over the decades large numbers of people from differant ethnic groups have moved to various parts of the country. For example Karachi now has more Pashtun than Kabul or Peshawar. I suspect the numbers in Karachi to be even higher than cited because the status quo parties in that city would lose out if the census showed the true numbers. That is another subject altogether.
However the critical point you make and which carries on the face of it substance is the differance in the force profile used in insurgency between Pakistan and India. As you mention the Maoist rebels and use of air power. What you forget is that insurgent forces in India and Pakistan are on another universe.
The TTP and other attached fighters on the FATA region are nothing less than Gebirgjager infantry assault teams. These deadly "jager" units of TTP are more than match for any mountain units in the world. They have full firepower and the terrain to match including anti tank/helicopter missiles. This is not surprising as this region was the marshalling yard for the jihadi fighters who took on the Soviet Army. Since than they have had brushed against NATO. So to compare the rag tag Maoists with the hardened fighers of TTP is entirely wrong. Thus the differant approach.
Naxals in India
TTP in Pakistan
They have even been caught with captured US Humvees.
Something else you might like to consider. Naxals are mostly from communties that are on the fringes of Indian society whereas the TTP are mostly Pashtun and large percentage of the Pak Army is made up of Pashtuns - that includes soldiers and officers. Similar to the Sikh composition in India army.
I think the points you raise might carry traction if it was Baloch but certainly in this instance I am afraid your on the wrong track. I know this is favourite of our Afghan friends who bring this "Punjab Army" issue up regulary although they overlook that ANA has disproportionate numbers of Tajiks and Hazarahs. It could be easily called "Tajik Army".
Its much easier to fight in open land like kashmir than in thick jungle where maoists live.
Kashmir and NE guerellas of last 10 years have good enough weapons to challenge security forces.
As to parallel with sikh insurgency, govt of India was very careful in not using excessive force against sikhs(except operation bluestar which was a blunder), and certainly did not use airpower. If the parallel is about sikhs facing racism, may be from ordinary folks back then but govt of India had sikhs on their side too. Indira Gandhi insisted on keeping her sikh bodyguards(probably a symbolic gesture, which ended up killing her).
The difference between pathans and sikhs in both armies, sikhs are in leadership positions in IA, which is not true for pathans. Why would punjabi general bother about ordinary civilian pathan.
Indus Pakistan
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Wrong. Significant portion of the officer corps is of Pashtun origin. Some noteable figures. Probably the best President Pakistan ever had. General Ayub Khan who ruled between 1959-1969
Link > http://www.alshifaeye.org/about.php?p=founder-president
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar_Khan_(Pakistani_general)
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayub_Khan_(general)
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazle_Haq
Linl > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Waheed_Kakar
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Jan_Aurakzai
And I am sure you have heard of Lt.Gen. Niazi of the 1971 war.
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Abdullah_Khan_Niazi
This is just a sample. The list goes on.
I reiterate, The weapons that are available to TTP and Naxals cannot be compared. This region has seen non stop war since 1979 Soviet invasion and the America/NATO combine. And it is "Pashtun" by the way or "Pakhtun".
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A more recent gift from Shawal .. Thanks to NATO or ANA?
livingdead
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I think you are cherrypicking specific names instead of seeing composition of army. Pak army by different estimates has 57 to 71 percent punjabis, and officer cadre is dominated by punjabis. I would invite somebody from forces to reject this notion(even if stats are not readily available).
I already accepted that TTP is heavily armed, but still think using fighter jet is extreme (a mixture of apathy toward civilian and an act of cowardice as in unwilling to suffer casualty)
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Talwar e Pakistan
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Pakistan has no military ethnicity composition statistics.
Pakistan has provincial statistics; according to the statistics around 50% are Punjabi.
But then again, 'Punjabi' is no ethnicity; there are around 25-30 Million Pashtuns in Punjab.
livingdead
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ok, in that case what is your best guess about the ethnic composition of corps commanders...
Talwar e Pakistan
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Pakistan uses Humvees?
Naxals are armed with hunting rifles and yet they still have inflicted more casualties against Indian security forces.I am very well aware of the internal divisions in Pakistan. Yes, of course many things and claims are made. Similar to how comments were made about Sikhs during the Khalistan days.
However to start making claims that policy is driven on that basis is very dangerous and wrong thing to do. Down that road lies perdition. Over the decades large numbers of people from differant ethnic groups have moved to various parts of the country. For example Karachi now has more Pashtun than Kabul or Peshawar. I suspect the numbers in Karachi to be even higher than cited because the status quo parties in that city would lose out if the census showed the true numbers. That is another subject altogether.
However the critical point you make and which carries on the face of it substance is the differance in the force profile used in insurgency between Pakistan and India. As you mention the Maoist rebels and use of air power. What you forget is that insurgent forces in India and Pakistan are on another universe.
The TTP and other attached fighters on the FATA region are nothing less than Gebirgjager infantry assault teams. These deadly "jager" units of TTP are more than match for any mountain units in the world. They have full firepower and the terrain to match including anti tank/helicopter missiles. This is not surprising as this region was the marshalling yard for the jihadi fighters who took on the Soviet Army. Since than they have had brushed against NATO. So to compare the rag tag Maoists with the hardened fighers of TTP is entirely wrong. Thus the differant approach.
Naxals in India
TTP in Pakistan
They have even been caught with captured US Humvees.
Something else you might like to consider. Naxals are mostly from communties that are on the fringes of Indian society whereas the TTP are mostly Pashtun and large percentage of the Pak Army is made up of Pashtuns - that includes soldiers and officers. Similar to the Sikh composition in India army.
I think the points you raise might carry traction if it was Baloch but certainly in this instance I am afraid your on the wrong track. I know this is favourite of our Afghan friends who bring this "Punjab Army" issue up regulary although they overlook that ANA has disproportionate numbers of Tajiks and Hazarahs. It could be easily called "Tajik Army".
Indus Pakistan
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I am not going win am I with you? Some of these officers like General Ayub Khan ruled the country for gawds sake. You want specfic figures. I have them but I need to do some searching to find them.
The damned Punjabi's are the majority in the country making some 55% plus of the population so that is not surprising.
Until I get specific figures I leave this for now. But the PA is a two legged creature and overwhelingly depends on two ethnic groups. Without doubt Sindhi and Baloch are I think under represented in the composition.
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livingdead
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most of naxal related casualty is due to landmines.. they operate in thick vegetation not open field... they know the jungle like back of their hands and can strike and vanish into thin air before your reinforcement comes... you will get disoriented in jungle if you make a wrong turn...
there is a reason why naxals are more successful compared to kashmiri militants in spite of vastly inferior weapon.
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Pak is a melting pot.. A large percentage of Sindhis are of Baloch origin ..
Southern Panjab overlaps with Balochistan and has a majority of Baluch tribes aswell as Baburs,khakwani and Lodhi Pashtuns.
Potohar overlaps KPK and a large percentage is Pashtun..
In fact according to the British there is no "single Panjabi" ethnicity .. No common "Punjabi look/face" .. People from all over the region are living in Panjab ..
KPK + GB are over represented .. Pashtuns at 35%
GB guys make up an overwhelming 10%
Balochistan stands at 5-7%
Rest are Sindhis & Panjabis (of all origins)
Indus Pakistan
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Musharraf Contends with the Pashtun Element in the Pakistani Army
Publication: Terrorism Focus Volume: 3 Issue: 42
November 1, 2006 10:07 PM Age: 10 yrs
By: Hassan Abbas
The recently concluded peace deal between the Pakistani army and pro-Taliban tribal elements in North Waziristan has led analysts to question why Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has backed down from military confrontation (Terrorism Monitor, October 5). The reason that the government made this decision is that keeping the Pashtuns of Afghanistan involved in the government process will keep Pakistani Pashtuns from revolting. It will be interesting to analyze whether Pashtun influence within the Pakistani army is a measurable factor, and if Pashtun power and opinion in the army have roles in these recent developments.
The Pakistani army stands today as the most organized, powerful and influential institution in the country. It has a cohesive and task-oriented profile with a strong esprit de corps. The composition and ethnic make-up of the Pakistani army have a long history—a brief reference to which is pertinent here. Before the independence of India and Pakistan in 1947, imperial British rulers defined the recruitment policies and orientation of the British Indian forces for a little under a century. They were convinced that certain classes of Indians described as martial races were more suitable for army service and would make better soldiers. In the area that is today Pakistan, the British-preferred recruitment hubs were the Punjab, which includes the districts of Rawalpindi, Jhelum and Attock and the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP), which includes the districts of Kohat, Mardan and Peshawar. After partition, Pakistan continued this unwritten policy at least until the late 1970s. From then onwards, it officially discarded this concept and tried to expand its recruitment base. The results today, however, are not any different from earlier times.
There are approximately 520,000 personnel on active duty in the army, which makes it one of the world's largest, according to GlobalSecurity.org. There are no official figures disseminated about the ethnic background of the officers as well as the ranks. Yet the estimation of two leading experts on the Pakistani army, namely Stephen P. Cohen of the Brookings Institution and Professor Hasan Askari Rizvi of Pakistan, indicates roughly that the Pashtun representation in the army is between 15-22% among officers and between 20-25% among the regular rank-and-file. However, Pashtuns from the NWFP, the third largest province out of four, and tribal areas together comprise only 16% of the country's overall population. Still, these figures are lower than the ratio of personnel from the largest province, the Punjab, which represents 56% of the country's population. Punjabi representation in the army is about 65% among officers and 70% among ranks. The remaining two provinces of the country, Balochistan and Sindh, consequently make up an even lower percentage of the army. The Pakistani army is often disdainfully dubbed as a Punjabi army by minority provinces. Among the well-informed though, the Pakistani army is considered a reserve of Punjabis and Pashtuns.
Thus Pashtuns and Punjabi's are over represented in the army similar to how Sikhs are over represented in Indian Army. For sure Pashtuns are better presented in PA then Indian Bengali's are in Indian Army!
Read this > http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=953&no_cache=1#.V0TY1r4Zx4k
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What you face in naxalites areas is nothing compared to the TTP stronghold.
Even the terrain of FATA is unforbidding ... High jagged snow covered peaks .. Lush forestation .. Caves .. Narrow passes and an enemy armed with weapons ranging from a PKM to a AAG & heavy anti tank Recoiless rifles & small MLRSs (and even old soviet howitzers )..
It's the terrain the British were slaughtered on... And NATO has been struggling since the past 15 years.
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