why not Come under US-Nuclear Umbrella ?

[SvenSvensonov]

Ok guys , i was wondering that , our Nuclear program is India specific , our missiles cant reach any other possible hostile from the west just in case ... but this Nuclear Pakistan seems a iminant threat to world peace .. and just because of that we were put into this WOT , ( at least some peoples believe in it ) ....
so why not we surrender our Nuclear weapons to UN ? ? US from 2001 try to reach our Nukes , or at least trying to locate them , and its a open secret to all ... we have no access to modern technology , no news military hardware , nothing .... we cant test ICBMs etc ,just because we will face a huge retaliation from the west and possible sanctions ....
our one and only possible enemy is India , at least this what we are told . Americans are friendly to us along with NATO ... than why not just give our Nukes to UN , on conditions which we can put in front of west like , economic reforms and corridor, increase in trade , more access to conventional weapons , for example turkey , Japan and Germany ... except turkey germany and Japan is under US Nuclear Umbrella and they have one of the most advance conventional military's in the world .... why cant we do the same ? we all know US presence in Pak .. whatever high tech and sophisticated weapons USA give us were before we got out nuke tests , why cant we compromise our nukes for a high tech powerful conventional army ?

there might be some possible cases which peoples might be thinking here ...
like .. :
1. what if india attack us ?
2. what if US attack us ?
3. we are the only Islamic nation who posses nukes ..is it a honor or burden ?

1. War with india is something we can experience anytime , and that is reality ...but will india use Nukes on us ? we all know that border skirmishes are happening since kargil and even before , but do we really think that any future conflict will trigger a nuclear war ? and what if we get US nuclear Umbrella like Japan and Germany ? made a pact with them to protect us in future conflicts , only in case of Nukes get involved in war ...
in return we can have more weapons and technology from the west .. i talk about Economic corridor and more trade that will help us build our economy strong .. we can take japan Germany and turkey as example , they have strong conventional army but the only weapon they dont have is Nukes, but did this make their countries valuable to their enemies ? and have US nukes on our soil will make sure that Russians or Indian will not dare to use Nukes ....and by having more conventional weapons we can fight better of with indians ....

2.we all know that many of people in Pakistan believe USA as their enemy and think that sooner or later they will attack us , even if they do , what we can do to prevent them attacking us ??
Answer is NOTHING ...

3 . So many peoples proudly say that we are the only Islamic nation that holds the nuclear weapons , but what benefit we ever give to any of our brotherly Islamic nation ?? none ...this Islamic Ummah and Islamic bomb make things worse for us than make them safe ... our country is more insecure than today ... wont we better before 1999 ?? no Taliban factor , no TTP , no foreign fighters , no band organizations , no suicide bombings etc.. ... world knows that we can not transfer the technology to any of Islamic country nor put our nukes into any other's soil ... than what might be reason to hold this title of " First Islamic country to get Nukes " ????when there is no benefit to it ?


I know lots of peoples here think that Nukes are the guaranty for our safety from India .. but this is also a reality that a full scale Nuclear war between Pakistan and India is impossible , and we can not fight with US , Nato or Israel with our current inventory ..because our missiles simply cant reach there ...
so here the deal what if we offer our nukes to UN and in return we ask for certain thing , what you guys think will be a better deal ?! and what if this all mess of WOT suddenly vanish after surrendering our nukes ? than we can be the tiger of Asia ....

P.s : i want a serious discussion on topic , so mods please try to make this thread clean from trolls , anyone can reply but only if you have something positive related to topic ..]

I really don't see how this would be possible and will offer my analysis of the major political hurdles from both the US and Pakistani sides. First, the US:

1. The US reserves its nuclear protection for its closest allies, I'm sorry but Pakistan is an on-again, off-again friend to the US. In order to be under the US nuclear umbrella a major upgrading in relations would be needed.

2. Becoming closer to Pakistan, and especially providing them with nuclear protection, is a great way to jeopardize a blossoming relationship with India. The US will not put its relationship with India at risk for the sake of protecting Pakistan. We have trade and defense ties with both India and Pakistan and we will not put our ties with either at risk for the sake of taking sides.

3. The US would not only put it's relationship at risk, but it would likely turn India hostile and provoke the Indians into pointing some of their nuclear weapons at US cities instead of those of China and Pakistan. We already have enough problems, we don't need to add India.

4. The US political and military brass just don't trust Pakistan enough.

Now for the Pakistani side.

1. Do they even trust the US to provide them with nuclear protection following the guarantees provided to Ukraine? The US didn't offer to protect Ukraine when it was threatened, there was never a defense pact that mandated our act, but we did fail in our obligation to protect Ukraine's sovereignty - part of our guarantee package afforded to them for giving up their nuclear weapons.

2. Is Pakistan willing to make the compromises needed to become closer to the US? You want to be part of the US team, be prepared to get tougher on militants, participate in future incidents, and dump or downgrade your relationship with China. I don't see either side making these kinds of political maneuvers.

3. Why would Pakistan ties its own hands? They have control over when and where to use their own nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have that control over those of the US.

4. Pakistan is working its way into regional defense cooperation agreements and frameworks such as the SCO. While not a defense treaty, these will help to reduce tensions with India by providing a platform for them to talk in the presence of mediators.

5. If Pakistan is the aggressor, will the US protect it?

This just isn't a realistic possibility from any angle you look at, and especially a political angle.

@Horus @Donatello - what do you guys think of the political concerns each nation would have to address.

 

[Darth Vader]

but still spend billions of $$ to spy on our Nuclear program ? lol at their trust

lol u r de 1 who said to give paks nuke 2 uncle sam

 

[Shariq786]

If your nuclear weapons and other expensive military gears are only India specific, then you need none of these, not even US protection, only if you can accept the ground realities; that Kashmir is a lost war, and move on. There are many far smaller and militarily weaker countries around India who don't feel threatened by us. I suggest, make peace and move on for a better future of South Asia.

LOST war u really must be out of your mind my friend !!

 

[rockstar08]

lol u r de 1 who said to give paks nuke 2 uncle sam

i said surrender to UN

 

[rockstar08]

You will wear out faster in case of a full war. Even if we assume for a moment that you are able to match us in terms of both quantity and quality of equipment, we will still have a very large landmass for you to destroy, whereas everything you have is within a few hundred kilometers of our reach.

Let's just leave it here as we will head nowhere on this topic, just tell me, WHY DON'T YOU IMPLEMENT A NO FIRST USE POLICY FOR YOUR NUKES? At least that will ease some pressure on you, no?

dude question is not about first use policy ... Pakistan will never use nukes on India ..
and its not 65 or 71 sir .... this time the war will be limited but the damage will be much more you can expect ... why you think Pak will hesitate to use babur with conventional warhead , on indian targets ?
now please dont tell me about Barhamos etc... we know that you have but we do have a lot of firepower ... it wont be a piece of cake for india to take over pak lands ... trust me

 

[Shariq786]

B

Ok guys , i was wondering that , our Nuclear program is India specific , our missiles cant reach any other possible hostile from the west just in case ... but this Nuclear Pakistan seems a iminant threat to world peace .. and just because of that we were put into this WOT , ( at least some peoples believe in it ) ....
so why not we surrender our Nuclear weapons to UN ? ? US from 2001 try to reach our Nukes , or at least trying to locate them , and its a open secret to all ... we have no access to modern technology , no news military hardware , nothing .... we cant test ICBMs etc ,just because we will face a huge retaliation from the west and possible sanctions ....
our one and only possible enemy is India , at least this what we are told . Americans are friendly to us along with NATO ... than why not just give our Nukes to UN , on conditions which we can put in front of west like , economic reforms and corridor, increase in trade , more access to conventional weapons , for example turkey , Japan and Germany ... except turkey germany and Japan is under US Nuclear Umbrella and they have one of the most advance conventional military's in the world .... why cant we do the same ? we all know US presence in Pak .. whatever high tech and sophisticated weapons USA give us were before we got out nuke tests , why cant we compromise our nukes for a high tech powerful conventional army ?

there might be some possible cases which peoples might be thinking here ...
like .. :
1. what if india attack us ?
2. what if US attack us ?
3. we are the only Islamic nation who posses nukes ..is it a honor or burden ?

1. War with india is something we can experience anytime , and that is reality ...but will india use Nukes on us ? we all know that border skirmishes are happening since kargil and even before , but do we really think that any future conflict will trigger a nuclear war ? and what if we get US nuclear Umbrella like Japan and Germany ? made a pact with them to protect us in future conflicts , only in case of Nukes get involved in war ...
in return we can have more weapons and technology from the west .. i talk about Economic corridor and more trade that will help us build our economy strong .. we can take japan Germany and turkey as example , they have strong conventional army but the only weapon they dont have is Nukes, but did this make their countries valuable to their enemies ? and have US nukes on our soil will make sure that Russians or Indian will not dare to use Nukes ....and by having more conventional weapons we can fight better of with indians ....

2.we all know that many of people in Pakistan believe USA as their enemy and think that sooner or later they will attack us , even if they do , what we can do to prevent them attacking us ??
Answer is NOTHING ...

3 . So many peoples proudly say that we are the only Islamic nation that holds the nuclear weapons , but what benefit we ever give to any of our brotherly Islamic nation ?? none ...this Islamic Ummah and Islamic bomb make things worse for us than make them safe ... our country is more insecure than today ... wont we better before 1999 ?? no Taliban factor , no TTP , no foreign fighters , no band organizations , no suicide bombings etc.. ... world knows that we can not transfer the technology to any of Islamic country nor put our nukes into any other's soil ... than what might be reason to hold this title of " First Islamic country to get Nukes " ????when there is no benefit to it ?


I know lots of peoples here think that Nukes are the guaranty for our safety from India .. but this is also a reality that a full scale Nuclear war between Pakistan and India is impossible , and we can not fight with US , Nato or Israel with our current inventory ..because our missiles simply cant reach there ...
so here the deal what if we offer our nukes to UN and in return we ask for certain thing , what you guys think will be a better deal ?! and what if this all mess of WOT suddenly vanish after surrendering our nukes ? than we can be the tiger of Asia ....

P.s : i want a serious discussion on topic , so mods please try to make this thread clean from trolls , anyone can reply but only if you have something positive related to topic ..

@Horus @Oscar @MastanKhan @Zarvan @dexter @The Deterrent @Chak Bamu @DESERT FIGHTER @orangzaib @gambit @haviZsultan @Irfan Baloch @A.Rafay @Norwegian @The SC @Basel @Amstrong @FaujHistorian @Jungibaaz @fatman17 @Donatello @Windjammer @Solomon2 @500

Bro instead of being some one's slave or a private contractor we might wanna become a country like CHINA have became and INDIA is on way of becoming 1 and i say if INDIA can do it we can too !! and If you say our weapons are India based than your mistaken it read about INDO-Isreal plan about the attack on PAK nuclear site before we tested our nukes but because of rapid reply India called it off ... IF OUR WEAPONS WERE ONLY INDIA BASED WHY WOULD ISRAEL PLAN TO DESTROY PAKS NUCLEAR FACILITY... and as you said PAK cannot test its ICBM because of the fear of foreign or western pressure or sanction but that doesn't mean it doesn't have 1 or can't make 1 because our missile TECH is better than INDIA's and IF India have an ICBM we might too that makes other countries like Israel and India to be cautious and stay away from PAK .. secondly in order to resist the foreign pressure all we need are good foreign policies which can be made by good politicians (hard to find in PAK) which means we need to use our vote just vote to fix all this shit thats it and secondly our ally CHINA is already a economic super power and growing fast so we just need to follow them instead of changing our allegiance lets get up together and start to coordinate in different fields with CHINA and TURKEY ....

 

[rockstar08]

They don't trust their own close allies and spy on them how they can trust us? In international relations public diplomacy does not reflect true colors of super powers.

and this is the only reason we can not test ICBM even if we have funds and tech in future ...

 

[rockstar08]

I really don't see how this would be possible and will offer my analysis of the major political hurdles from both the US and Pakistani sides. First, the US:

1. The US reserves its nuclear protection for its closest allies, I'm sorry but Pakistan is an on-again, off-again friend to the US. In order to be under the US nuclear umbrella a major upgrading in relations would be needed.

2. Becoming closer to Pakistan, and especially providing them with nuclear protection, is a great way to jeopardize a blossoming relationship with India. The US will not put its relationship with India at risk for the sake of protecting Pakistan. We have trade and defense ties with both India and Pakistan and we will not put our ties with India.

3. The US would not only put it's relationship at risk, but it would likely turn India hostile and provoke the Indians into point some of their nuclear weapons at US cities instead of those of China and Pakistan. We already have enough problems, we don't need to add India.

4. The US political and military brass just don't trust Pakistan enough.

Now for the Pakistani side.

1. Do they even trust the US to provide them with nuclear protection following the guarantees provided to Ukraine? The US didn't offer to protect Ukraine when it was threatened, there was never a defense pact that mandated our act, but we did fail in our obligation to protect Ukraine's sovereignty - part of our guarantee package afforded to them for giving up their nuclear weapons.

2. Is Pakistan willing to make the compromises needed to become closer to the US? You want to be part of the US team, be prepared to get tougher on militants, participate in future incidents, and dump or downgrade your relationship with China. I don't see either side making these kinds of political maneuvers.

3. Why would Pakistan ties its own hands? They have control over when and where to use their own nuclear weapons, they would have that control over those of the US.

4. Pakistan is working its way into regional defense cooperation agreements and frameworks such as the SCO. While not a defense treaty, these will help to reduce tensions with India by providing a platform for them to talk in the presence of mediators.

5. If Pakistan is the aggressor, will the US protect it?

This just isn't a realistic possibility from any angle you look at, and especially a political angle.

@Horus @Donatello - what do you guys think of the political concerns each nation would have to address.

you did make some good points here ... but let me clear few things for you ...

1. have you notice that since when Pak-US relational start to go downwards ? after 1999 test first we get gift of sanctions and than in 2001 , US come next to us , and all the mess start in pakistan ..so US is equal share to ruin the relationship with pak .

2. no one is asking you to go to war with Pakistan , your nukes are stationed in Japan , but you still have good relationship with China ? make sense ?

3. dude nothing is permanent , yesterday US stand with Pak in previous wars , and today US has good ties with india , you never know in future all change .. or unless US has a hidden agenda to de-denuclearize Pakistan .

4. i know that US dont trust Pakistan, and Pakistan dont trust US too , but somehow we both are strategic allies , trust need to build up ..

-------------------------------------

1. does this mean that US is not a trust worthy ally ?? that Pakistan can not trust US , as american offer Pakistan a lot of goodies just to drop our nuclear program ...

2. we can not afford to break ties with US , so there is no way in near future that Pak-US relations will completely shattered ..
and as for China , i think @Horus can put light on it ....

3. we are giving up our nukes to UN , for having more Conventional weapons, and conditions to world to help us in economic reforms , economic corridor and increase in trade ... more money means more weapons ...

4. why on the first place Pakistan will be aggressor ? and after we give up our nukes .. that doesnt make any sense ..
as example , see our COAS briefing US authorities about Indians violating on LOC ...

 

[Kompromat]

There is no such need. Grow up and protect yourself.

 

[Shariq786]

you did make some good points here ... but let me clear few things for you ...

1. have you notice that since when Pak-US relational start to go downwards ? after 1999 test first we get gift of sanctions and than in 2001 , US come next to us , and all the mess start in pakistan ..so US is equal share to ruin the relationship with pak .

2. no one is asking you to go to war with Pakistan , your nukes are stationed in Japan , but you still have good relationship with China ? make sense ?

3. dude nothing is permanent , yesterday US stand with Pak in previous wars , and today US has good ties with india , you never know in future all change .. or unless US has a hidden agenda to de-denuclearize Pakistan .

4. i know that US dont trust Pakistan, and Pakistan dont trust US too , but somehow we both are strategic allies , trust need to build up ..

-------------------------------------

1. does this mean that US is not a trust worthy ally ?? that Pakistan can not trust US , as american offer Pakistan a lot of goodies just to drop our nuclear program ...

2. we can not afford to break ties with US , so there is no way in near future that Pak-US relations will completely shattered ..
and as for China , i think @Horus can put light on it ....

3. we are giving up our nukes to UN , for having more Conventional weapons, and conditions to world to help us in economic reforms , economic corridor and increase in trade ... more money means more weapons ...

4. why on the first place Pakistan will be aggressor ? and after we give up our nukes .. that doesnt make any sense ..
as example , see our COAS briefing US authorities about Indians violating on LOC ...

First mistake bro ur own point 2 .. If we stay friends with CHINA US won't be with us its either CHINA or US !!!
as i said US lossing its edge from the world as u see the policies of anti US states such as Russia and CHINA while RUSSIA is one of the biggest weapon exporter and advancing faster than ever in their weapon tech and CHINA is day by day becoming a Center of economy of the world while if add PAK to this alliance (because CHINA and Russia are really good friends so CHINA could add us to this alliance) it would allow Anti US alliance CHINA and Russia to reach the US controlled mid east and decrease their influence through using PAK as a foreign minister and that could help them in gathering the key places like saudi IRAN TURKEY QATAR and other few more states and then the US advantage of having control over Mid east would slowly go down which do means a fall of US and allies cuz with out MID east whole nato will be having pieces of metals in there armies and as you can see right now as well just because of fighting the wars of others US is bankrupt and printing dollars has more loans on itself than any country in the world (by UN,CHINA) so i don't think US would want to become a guard of another country it would just increase there pain .... !!!

 

[unbiasedopinion]

you know you are ignorant .. or just unable to understand my point ...
US N weapons will be stationed in Pak to defend us from any misadventure from India ( if nukes involved ) ..
Germany has US nukes but Germany wont go out in world threatning other countries to attack them by using US nukes or did they ?

But you will loose the control over the decision power of using US nukes. Consider if in a war between India and Pakistan, Indian Army capture large part of Pakistan territory, with American nukes, you would not have the power to use them against Indian Army as Nukes are not involved which might not be the case if you still have your own nukes.

 

[Sugarcane]

Why not join Indian union, you will not need even to spend on conventional weapons?

 

[k_arura]

Ok guys , i was wondering that , our Nuclear program is India specific , our missiles cant reach any other possible hostile from the west just in case ... but this Nuclear Pakistan seems a iminant threat to world peace .. and just because of that we were put into this WOT , ( at least some peoples believe in it ) ....
so why not we surrender our Nuclear weapons to UN ? ? US from 2001 try to reach our Nukes , or at least trying to locate them , and its a open secret to all ... we have no access to modern technology , no news military hardware , nothing .... we cant test ICBMs etc ,just because we will face a huge retaliation from the west and possible sanctions ....
our one and only possible enemy is India , at least this what we are told . Americans are friendly to us along with NATO ... than why not just give our Nukes to UN , on conditions which we can put in front of west like , economic reforms and corridor, increase in trade , more access to conventional weapons , for example turkey , Japan and Germany ... except turkey germany and Japan is under US Nuclear Umbrella and they have one of the most advance conventional military's in the world .... why cant we do the same ? we all know US presence in Pak .. whatever high tech and sophisticated weapons USA give us were before we got out nuke tests , why cant we compromise our nukes for a high tech powerful conventional army ?

there might be some possible cases which peoples might be thinking here ...
like .. :
1. what if india attack us ?
2. what if US attack us ?
3. we are the only Islamic nation who posses nukes ..is it a honor or burden ?

1. War with india is something we can experience anytime , and that is reality ...but will india use Nukes on us ? we all know that border skirmishes are happening since kargil and even before , but do we really think that any future conflict will trigger a nuclear war ? and what if we get US nuclear Umbrella like Japan and Germany ? made a pact with them to protect us in future conflicts , only in case of Nukes get involved in war ...
in return we can have more weapons and technology from the west .. i talk about Economic corridor and more trade that will help us build our economy strong .. we can take japan Germany and turkey as example , they have strong conventional army but the only weapon they dont have is Nukes, but did this make their countries valuable to their enemies ? and have US nukes on our soil will make sure that Russians or Indian will not dare to use Nukes ....and by having more conventional weapons we can fight better of with indians ....

2.we all know that many of people in Pakistan believe USA as their enemy and think that sooner or later they will attack us , even if they do , what we can do to prevent them attacking us ??
Answer is NOTHING ...

3 . So many peoples proudly say that we are the only Islamic nation that holds the nuclear weapons , but what benefit we ever give to any of our brotherly Islamic nation ?? none ...this Islamic Ummah and Islamic bomb make things worse for us than make them safe ... our country is more insecure than today ... wont we better before 1999 ?? no Taliban factor , no TTP , no foreign fighters , no band organizations , no suicide bombings etc.. ... world knows that we can not transfer the technology to any of Islamic country nor put our nukes into any other's soil ... than what might be reason to hold this title of " First Islamic country to get Nukes " ????when there is no benefit to it ?


I know lots of peoples here think that Nukes are the guaranty for our safety from India .. but this is also a reality that a full scale Nuclear war between Pakistan and India is impossible , and we can not fight with US , Nato or Israel with our current inventory ..because our missiles simply cant reach there ...
so here the deal what if we offer our nukes to UN and in return we ask for certain thing , what you guys think will be a better deal ?! and what if this all mess of WOT suddenly vanish after surrendering our nukes ? than we can be the tiger of Asia ....

P.s : i want a serious discussion on topic , so mods please try to make this thread clean from trolls , anyone can reply but only if you have something positive related to topic ..

@Horus @Oscar @MastanKhan @Zarvan @dexter @The Deterrent @Chak Bamu @DESERT FIGHTER @orangzaib @gambit @haviZsultan @Irfan Baloch @A.Rafay @Norwegian @The SC @Basel @Amstrong @FaujHistorian @Jungibaaz @fatman17 @Donatello @Windjammer @Solomon2 @500

Atleast some hints of a dose of reality. But your JANTA won't go for it. Plus you are not going to get NATO type deal with US. They will be happy to have you surrender the nukes. But ultimately you have to come to terms to India being the dominant power, be nice to her (like Canada/Mexico) or you can go North Korea route. Choice is yours

 

[k_arura]

Why not join Indian union, you will not need even to spend on conventional weapons?

Thanks but no thanks

 

[Sugarcane]

Thanks but no thanks