Why is Nawaz Sharif bending over to Indians?

[Developereo]

A crumbling economy, failing governance and mounting social problems can introduce desperation no matter who is trying their hand at statesmanship.

And the solution to all these problems is to open the floodgates to Indian operatives? especially when it is 100% certain that India will not return the "favor"?

Competent leaders propose thoughtful, workable solutions, not ridiculous attention grabbing soundbites.

 

[VCheng]

And the solution to all these problems is to open the floodgates to Indian operatives? especially when it is 100% certain that India will not return the "favor"?

Any concessions must be bilateral and reciprocated in fact and in spirit, absolutely. Unilateral pandering will never work between India and Pakistan.

Competent leaders propose thoughtful, workable solutions, not ridiculous attention grabbing soundbites.

The key words are "competent" and "leader", but those qualities are distinctly in short supply these days in Pakistan. The rest follows naturally.

 

[Developereo]

Any concessions must be bilateral and reciprocated in fact and in spirit, absolutely. Unilateral pandering will never work between India and Pakistan.



The key words are "competent" and "leader", but those qualities are distinctly in short supply these days in Pakistan. The rest follows naturally.

Yup, we agree.

(Now, if I could just concentrate with all this flapping and oinking outside...)

 

[Awesome]

Thank you for clarifying that.

and when I say whack... I don't mean it in the way an italian mafia boss would .

 

[Vinod2070]

Ummeed lagaye raho, we can hold Siachen till the end of time. It will cost us in lives, which our soldiers are already prepared to give.

We are the ones who are pushing to save lives of the soldiers - mutually. You are the ones willing to let your soldiers die. Your soldiers die just as much as ours - you are just thinking you have plenty in spare so you'll win out. Itne bhi nahi marte, but in Pakistan even one soldiers' life is worth considering if done mutually.

Yehi masla hai, Indians ke saath sharafat se baat karo toh phannay khan ban jatay hain. You know what they say about the proverbial Laaton ke bhoot.

A lot of delusions at display.

A typical example of "conditional thinking" (meaning how one has been conditioned to think). A Pavlovian mindset.

You know what? We can see through all the bluster and loud talk.

And we can see the very scared and very battered kid.

And it doesn't make us happy.

We have not taken the "enemy" thing to heart like so many of you.

It will come down to India having to help you and save you from yourself pretty soon. I think India will take it up.

The alternatives are even worse.

This article remains ever relevant.

http://archives.dawn.com/archives/19304

As I look around, I see many signs of a country that has grown older, but has failed to grow up. For one, we remain too immature as a nation to reflect on where we have gone wrong, and what needs to be done to set matters right. We live from one day to the next, confident in the expectation that generous adults will look after us, no matter what transgressions we commit

........

When we see we can`t have something, we tend to throw a tantrum and dig in our heels instead of moving on. For over 60 years, we have been fixated over the Kashmir issue. Whatever the legal rights and wrongs of the matter, the harsh truth is that India is not going to budge, and there is nothing Pakistan can do to change this reality.

Hundreds of billions of rupees and thousands of wasted lives later, we are where we were decades ago. In fact, we have lost whatever diplomatic support we once had. The world is heartily sick of the dispute, and wishes we could just put the matter to rest and move on.

We are aggressive and touchy to the point of paranoia. Take the recent furore over the Kerry-Lugar law as a good example. For weeks, the media and the military were in hysterics over the evil intentions of the Americans who were bent on throwing billions of dollars in our direction.

 

[livingdead]

^^^ there is little to differentiate between common pakistani and common Indian man on steet, both are deeply distrustful of any initiative. It reqires courage and statemanship to take such an initiative and we should welcome Mr Sharif for that.
Even if it is impractical and most probably is not happening, the though does count.
I am sure MMS would be really eager to take some initiatives of his own, but he is weak and does not have popular mandate like Mr Vajpayee.

 

[Awesome]

A lot of delusions at display.

A typical example of "conditional thinking" (meaning how one has been conditioned to think). A Pavlovian mindset.

You know what? We can see through all the bluster and loud talk.

And we can see the very scared and very battered kid.

And it doesn't make us happy.

We have not taken the "enemy" thing to heart like so many of you.

It will come down to India having to help you and save you from yourself pretty soon. I think India will take it up.

The alternatives are even worse.

This article remains ever relevant.

Grow up, and smell the coffee | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM

Dude, we sit and laugh and the sheer obsessiveness Indians show to everything Pakistan. Its nothing to do with bravado, we are not afraid to appear weak and don't need to show machoness or macho fakeness. You are totally ignoring the "you suck, we rule" shields always on with many Indian posters here, and how the delusion that Siachen only kills Pakistanis exist or that if Pakistanis are saying something sensible like mutual pullout, this must mean a weakness.

Ajeeb mix of superiority and inferiority complex at display here.

So many times we are talking about internal characteristics of Pakistanis and Indians jump in, for example, the question was why is NS doing this, it was internal, it had nothing to do with Indians. Lekin apne falsafay jhaarne thak agaye aap log. Which is fine, as long as it is something related to our internal issues. "We will wait it out till you guys can't afford to stay in Siachen", is a reflection of your nation's ugliness. Ready to sacrifice its soldiers on Siachen just because you know you have many more soldiers than Pakistan. I just put down such idiotic thinking since Pakistan's own supply of Siachen replacements is not so low and can take it to the end of time.

But why do it, when you have another option? You might value this macho fakeness, but I don't and hence I can keep suggesting an option, not for my benefit but for our mutual benefit.

Try to fight your pre-programmed way of thinking that anything that a Pakistani is for I have to be against.

 

[SamantK]

Dude, we sit and laugh and the sheer obsessiveness Indians show to everything Pakistan. Its nothing to do with bravado, we are not afraid to appear weak and don't need to show machoness or macho fakeness. You are totally ignoring the "you suck, we rule" shields always on with many Indian posters here, and how the delusion that Siachen only kills Pakistanis exist or that if Pakistanis are saying something sensible like mutual pullout, this must mean a weakness.

So you have decided that Indians are obsessive being an Administrator. I am an Indian but I do believe many Indians have died and will die in Siachen but we have no choice, which I will explain later in my response.

Ajeeb mix of superiority and inferiority complex at display here.
So many times we are talking about internal characteristics of Pakistanis and Indians jump in, for example, the question was why is NS doing this, it was internal, it had nothing to do with Indians. Lekin apne falsafay jhaarne thak agaye aap log. Which is fine, as long as it is something related to our internal issues.

You are an administrator and would be well within your rights to ban the Indians completely if you like. So, giving this excuse that we are discussing our internal issues and some one posting things not suiting your taste should in no way bother you as you dont want to stop Indians from joining, you are setting a bad standard being an Administrator.

"We will wait it out till you guys can't afford to stay in Siachen", is a reflection of your nation's ugliness.

Now, from blaming some Indians you have have painted my Nation ugly and based on what? a very very small fraction of Indian population? Quite insightful.

Ready to sacrifice its soldiers on Siachen just because you know you have many more soldiers than Pakistan. I just put down such idiotic thinking since Pakistan's own supply of Siachen replacements is not so low and can take it to the end of time.

But why do it, when you have another option? You might value this macho fakeness, but I don't and hence I can keep suggesting an option, not for my benefit but for our mutual benefit.

Maybe you missed my post #53 maybe you wanted to miss it. Also, I see that you like to respond selectively which is fine with me, however please read that post and tell me what you think. Siachen is not a simple issue as you are pointing out to be. A benefit you cannot guarantee is not a solution, any nation has to understand that. There should be guarantees, India as a nation does not think about matching Pakistan but why should it, the advantages you see are yours to see, the way we see are for us to see..

Try to fight your pre-programmed way of thinking that anything that a Pakistani is for I have to be against.

Please stop ranting that all Indians do what you have described..

 

[Awesome]

So you have decided that Indians are obsessive being an Administrator.

No if I wasn't an administrator, the demonstration that is being done here would have still led me to the same conclusion.

You are an administrator and would be well within your rights to ban the Indians completely if you like. So, giving this excuse that we are discussing our internal issues and some one posting things not suiting your taste should in no way bother you as you dont want to stop Indians from joining, you are setting a bad standard being an Administrator.

You are not unwelcome from discussing our internal matters, but the discussion should remain on topic. The gems include "Pakistanis are not in Siachen", "We don't know who to talk to in Pakistan". You are asking for it when you mess around like this.

Now, from blaming some Indians you have have painted my Nation ugly and based on what? a very very small fraction of Indian population? Quite insightful.

I have pointed out AN ugliness, I didn't paint it ugly. Sorry to say a nation's such disregard for petty one-upmanship is ugly, I can't call it anything else.

Maybe you missed my post #53 maybe you wanted to miss it. Also, I see that you like to respond selectively which is fine with me, however please read that post and tell me what you think. Siachen is not a simple issue as you are pointing out to be. A benefit you cannot guarantee is not a solution, any nation has to understand that. There should be guarantees, India as a nation does not think about matching Pakistan but why should it, the advantages you see are yours to see, the way we see are for us to see..

The topic, my man, the topic. Your post is offtopic, I'm not discussing Siachen's pros and cons, heck I dabbled on whether on the merits of mutualism to explain NS's stupidity of unilateralism... But the topic is NS's studpity and nothing to do with India's acceptance of the proposals or not.

Please stop ranting that all Indians do what you have described..

I didn't say all Indians. Just the ones demonstrating what I described here.

 

[ice_man]

So you have decided that Indians are obsessive being an Administrator. I am an Indian but I do believe many Indians have died and will die in Siachen but we have no choice, which I will explain later in my response.


You are an administrator and would be well within your rights to ban the Indians completely if you like. So, giving this excuse that we are discussing our internal issues and some one posting things not suiting your taste should in no way bother you as you dont want to stop Indians from joining, you are setting a bad standard being an Administrator.


Now, from blaming some Indians you have have painted my Nation ugly and based on what? a very very small fraction of Indian population? Quite insightful.



Maybe you missed my post #53 maybe you wanted to miss it. Also, I see that you like to respond selectively which is fine with me, however please read that post and tell me what you think. Siachen is not a simple issue as you are pointing out to be. A benefit you cannot guarantee is not a solution, any nation has to understand that. There should be guarantees, India as a nation does not think about matching Pakistan but why should it, the advantages you see are yours to see, the way we see are for us to see..



Please stop ranting that all Indians do what you have described..

just a point i would like to mention here is that even though you are an indian Pakistanis Mods allow you to say whatever you wish to say & don't ban anyone unless they troll. SAME COULDN'T BE SAID ABOUT BR type indian forums!

Siachen is not a simple issue however, is it worth 1000s of lives for both sides when clearly it is baren frozen land which no one will ever live in & specially i doubt if alot of indians or pakistanis will ever see it with their eyes before their death! BUT being complexed by nature no side will back down and loose face.

 

[SamantK]

No if I wasn't an administrator, the demonstration that is being done here would have still led me to the same conclusion.

You are actually being very selective.. it does not matter, you are what you are!

You are not unwelcome from discussing our internal matters, but the discussion should remain on topic. The gems include "Pakistanis are not in Siachen", "We don't know who to talk to in Pakistan". You are asking for it when you mess around like this.

And there are no instances where some Pakistani's have said many vile things and you are one of them? Giving tit for tat and you expect others to say neutral

I have pointed out AN ugliness, I didn't paint it ugly. Sorry to say a nation's such disregard for petty one-upmanship is ugly, I can't call it anything else.

yes, an ugliness in our nation but then you base your "All-knowing" fact on what exactly? a very very small fraction of Indians on defence.pk?

The topic, my man, the topic. Your post is offtopic, I'm not discussing Siachen's pros and cons, heck I dabbled on whether on the merits of mutualism to explain NS's stupidity of unilateralism... But the topic is NS's studpity and nothing to do with India's acceptance of the proposals or not.

fair enough, but you did reply to an off-topic post explaining the benifits so felt to give my two cents am I not allowed?

I didn't say all Indians. Just the ones demonstrating what I described here.

but you commited all Indians by pointing out some ugliness in our 'Nation' which you think is present only in India!

 

[SamantK]

just a point i would like to mention here is that even though you are an indian Pakistanis Mods allow you to say whatever you wish to say & don't ban anyone unless they troll. SAME COULDN'T BE SAID ABOUT BR type indian forums!

I do not own those forums and neither am a representative of those forums. However, it is clear that while what you said is true in most case there are abberations as well. If you want to enjoy the knowledge and freedom you need to be impartial too which will only increase the quality of dicussion.. hence I pointed out what I felt like a tit-for-tat repsonse from an Administrator.

Siachen is not a simple issue however, is it worth 1000s of lives for both sides when clearly it is baren frozen land which no one will ever live in & specially i doubt if alot of indians or pakistanis will ever see it with their eyes before their death! BUT being complexed by nature no side will back down and loose face.

How we see the situation is a bit different, we have to incur more cost if we come down from siachen to form a line of defence in case something happens. That is more costly than the present force being present. India has asked for a clear demarcation of the land as is the case with LOC so that any misadventure like Kargil can effectively be rotted out.

 

[happycanuck]

The issue is UNILATERALLY. India doesn't give us squat and we give India everything.

Because your forces and Government of past is sitting on land which rightfully belongs to Bharatvarsh. You can learn more about the geography by googling.

 

[illusion8]

NS said it after witnessing the tragedy that happened there, I think he is visioning a deep friendship between India and Pakistan - there seems to be some genuineness in what he says and that's from an Indian's perspective. Other than that he doesn't seem to have any ulterior motives as implied. but that's just us, you people might know better. Indeed peace obtained by settlement of all matters will be excellent for Pakistan. India has it's priorities with regards to its positioning in Siachen, If both countries agree to it then force reduction is possible, otherwise I really don't see why India should vacate her positions just because Pakistan is finding it difficult to maintain her troops there. The only solution that can come out of it is demarcate the line on the basis of present positions and make it permanent. NS can then have what he wishes for.

 

[ice_man]

NS said it after witnessing the tragedy that happened there, I think he is visioning a deep friendship between India and Pakistan - there seems to be some genuineness in what he says and that's from an Indian's perspective. Other than that he doesn't seem to have any ulterior motives as implied. but that's just us, you people might know better. Indeed peace obtained by settlement of all matters will be excellent for Pakistan. India has it's priorities with regards to its positioning in Siachen, If both countries agree to it then force reduction is possible, otherwise I really don't see why India should vacate her positions just because Pakistan is finding it difficult to maintain her troops there. The only solution that can come out of it is demarcate the line on the basis of present positions and make it permanent. NS can then have what he wishes for.

even though i like your arrogance about pakistan is finding it difficult for the up keep of troops in the area. However, unfortunately you have no idea about siachen glacier. the indian army has a harder time trying to maintain vigil there! reason being higher ground which means harder to airlift things to such high altitudes, more costly on human lives.

just because you sit in your city in your warm home you can have that arrogance. but the poor soldier sitting on those heights their plight you can never imagine.