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Why India Occupied Siachen?

What whining. Apparently it appears to be you whose suddenly replied in desperation.

Anyways this so called AGPL isn't acceptable to us since it would be equivalent to validating your aggression of 1984.

LOC was called LOC after Simla agreement where both the countries decided to respect this line even with considering each others part of Kashmir as disputed and occupied. Before it was UN cease fire line since 1947. While here is this line(AGPL) which came into existence in 1984 after India's invasion of Siachen. So in other words LOC had some weight being backed by UN unlike this supposed AGPL which would be a symbol of Indian aggression if accepted by Pakistan. And we won't accept it. Pre-1984 situation and if you don't trust Pakistan engage third party to resolve the issue. Enough said.
Sorry them we can not leave the high grounds in the hope that It will remain a no mans land and your army always has the policy of taking advantage of the each and every oppertunity that is offered as peace.
 
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The true facts are here in this article. Ignore Indians verbal diarrhea on this forum.

Let

All those who support better ties with India should oppose the Zardari-Gilani government’s recent initiative to liberalise trade with our eastern neighbour.

The reason is simple. Any attempt to undercut Pakistani interests will backfire on the long run and harm future prospects for peace. It is a myth that we are not trading with India. The existing levels of trade between us are promising and sufficient. The Indian MFN status to Pakistan is largely on paper and is yet to be translated into reality. The concessions hurriedly granted by President Zardari will actually harm Pakistan.

There is credible evidence that Zardari’s rush toward India is linked to giving that country trade access to Afghanistan. His allies in Washington have been lobbying him on this count for some time. Acting quietly, he already has opened the Karachi port to Indian wheat. All of this is happening without reciprocation using misleading arguments.

Let’s take Siachen, where the bodies of more than 135 of our soldiers and civilians lie buried after the massive weekend landslide. India’s aggressive anti-Pakistan posture is responsible for this and other tragedies in our region. Kashmir is in dispute since 1948 and yet Pakistan never placed troops there. We are in Siachen today because, without provocation, India raised the stakes in 1984 by occupying the peaks on the glaciers.

The only logical reason why India did so was to raise the cost of military readiness for Pakistan. India can afford to show generosity to its smaller western neighbour if it wishes to do so. Instead, New Delhi chooses to escalate. It invaded Pakistan unprovoked in 1971 when we were busy in elections and our military was in the barracks. It detonated nuclear bombs in 1974 right next to Pakistan’s eastern border, when it could have picked any other location inside its vast dominion. And it exploited the Soviet and now the American occupations of Afghanistan to use that nation’s soil to arm and feed insurgencies against us.

Former president Pervez Musharraf bent backwards to appease India for a deal on Kashmir. His concessions were breathtakingly unprecedented. That process, called the Composite Dialogue, ran from 2004 to 2008. Even then India failed to move on even the easiest things to resolve: small border disputes like Siachen. Both Pakistani and Indian negotiators finalised a win-win deal. A document was ready to be signed. But India kept delaying until Musharraf left power.

India’s aggressive anti-Pakistan posture beats logic. It continues to ban Pakistani cricket players on its soil. Our artists who choose to visit India are often harassed and sometimes beaten up by Indian extremists. Indian officials, intelligentsia and others continue to demonise Pakistan’s rise in 1947 as an independent country, and many Indians are fed a regular diet of a theory that Pakistan and India were somehow the same country in a unified nation, which is a myth because such a unified country never existed for centuries.

The United States needs India in Afghanistan. That is not possible without using Pakistani roads, ports and skies. Our American friends keep telling us India is not a threat. But most of India’s $40 billion defence budget and weapons point toward Pakistan. Our people welcome the Indians here. But when some 60 Pakistanis believed Indian peace declarations and travelled to New Delhi in a ‘peace train’ in 2007, they were burned alive near the Indian capital by Hindu extremists.

It would be fair to blame India for the needless military deployments that we have to make in a place like Siachen. Indians are good people and we can have the best of political and trade relations with them. But India’s ruling elite refuses to budge on small issues. Indian planners have the world’s biggest concentration of poverty and disease and other social ills like AIDS and female infanticide and underage girl marriages. These planners also have more than $300 billion in India’s savings account. But this wealth is not shared with India’s poor.

Siachen is a reminder that India has yet to meet us halfway for peace. While normal trade between us should continue at existing pace, where India has exported goods worth $1.7 billion to Pakistan last year, we should not opt for unilateral concessions like President Zardari is doing until the other side sincerely reciprocates.
 
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What kind of twisted logic is this?? .

No twisted logic. It's too clear.

Our stand has always been that there is no scope for third party mediation...

And why is that. Your non-willingness to resolve long lasting issues may be!

This has been there since the origin of Kashmir conflict

It was you brought UN in Kashmir conflict or bilateral issues in the first place.

I am not against harping on the points taught to you(b/w we do the same so don't jump on it) but one can easily filter out some of the points that make no sense...

It makes all sense. According to Indian members India doesn't trust Pakistan. Fine... And India doesn't want to engage a third party too to resolve this conflict. Only conclusion left is that India has no interest in resolving these issues.

Now here is my take on Siachen. Unfortunately during Shimla agreement this part was left undecided...The way undecided doesn't mean it belongs to India in the same token it doesn't mean it belongs to Pakistan...Fair??

No Pakistan always considered Siachen to be part of Baltistan and hence always used to allow permits to mountaineers for ascents on this region. Did Indian govt ever protested against it. Did your foreign ministry asked Pakistan to stop this "aggression"? I don't think so.

Now it is easy to say that India showed aggression

Because of India's aggression on ground it is easy to prove. This is the point to remember.

but then the trigger point was the permission's given by Pakistan to expeditions taking place there...How on this earth you can give permissions for something that is not yours??? Once you start doing that the message was clear to Indian side...Either put your stamp on it or else loose th glacier by this cartopgraphic aggression....It is easy to put the blame on India(which happened to reach the glacier by a whisker earlier then you guys) but what is your take on the so called charge of cartopgraphic aggression from your side???

Now if this is the main reason for your aggression then let me give you a simple reality. Pakistan not only gave permits for mountaineering on Siachen but also on Baltoro, Biafo, Hispar and many other glaciers which are present in the same vicinity of Siachen glacier. They all are part of same chain of glaciers seperated by a passes, ridges etc. Can you do the same to these glaciers as you did with Siachen? May be no? Why? Here comes the real reason for your aggression of 1984. Because one they are not close to India and two because they aren't left unprotected by Pakistan at the mercy of India like Siachen.

You did what you did in Siachen because of the above two reasons. You found a territory. It was unprotected. It was closer to you. And you invaded it. Now India doesn't even protest to Pakistan for giving permits to foreigners for ascents on K-2 or Broad peak even when they are in the Baltistan region which according to Indian govt is India's territory.

The only possible solution is to accept the Indian positions and demilitaralize the glacier. Unfortunately for you that we reached there earlier and there is no way you can remove us from there...We have lost enough troops in maintaining our position there and no way we can let all that go waste...In this particular battle we are clear winners...Accept it and move on...Otherwise status quo is not hurting us and will carry on

I think I have said enough about this "solution". So not going to repeat myself again and again.

I can understand why but then what else is the solution??

We have already given you the solution but unfortunately like always you aren't accepting it. You started this madness and now because of your ego, you are continuing it.

Like you we have lost a lot of our jawans and none of them sacrificed their lives for accepting your aggression and occupation.
 
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I love learning new things and don't hesitate in accepting where i am wrong...I hope i will get the same treatment from you...

No twisted logic. It's too clear. And why is that. Your non-willingness to resolve long lasting issues may be!.It was you brought UN in Kashmir conflict or bilateral issues in the first place.
Listen such accusations are not going to do any good. Let's refrain from this...We don't accept any third party intervention and this stand has been there from decades...This particular stand has nothing to do with Siachen as was being suggested by you and this is what i want to say...Makes sense???

It makes all sense. According to Indian members India doesn't trust Pakistan. Fine... And India doesn't want to engage a third party too to resolve this conflict. Only conclusion left is that India has no interest in resolving these issues.

What does trust has anything to do with third party mediation? Obviously when two parties are in a conflict there will be deficit of trust....Your terror hubs are not helping the cause either...Anyhow there is a term called CBM's...For years we were harping on this and were even showing you the way out...trade was a starter in this direction...Though more then a decade late yet finally you reciprocated MFN status..Hopefully things will improve...

Sorry but bold part is merely a point scoring conclusion which has nothing to with logic. There is no third party mediation in China-India border conflict...Does that mean both countries are not interested in solving the conflict??? You might wanna ignore the fact but India believes that we are responsible enough to resolve conflicts on our own. We don't need arbitration from anyone...So far world is listening to us. b/w third party interventions has also not resulted in some rosy results if i look around...So honestly stop making such tall and one sided claims....


No Pakistan always considered Siachen to be part of Baltistan and hence always used to allow permits to mountaineers for ascents on this region. Did Indian govt ever protested against it. Did your foreign ministry asked Pakistan to stop this "aggression"? I don't think so.

Look that is what i am saying...Your interpretation was not in synch with ours. I can also say the same...Did your foreign office check with us before considering Siachen to be part of Baltistan??? On what basis you started considering it to be part of Baltistan??? As said during shimla accord this area was not detailed out...You had your interpretation and we had ours...Thus you simply cannot point fingers at India and say that we started the hostilities....As pointed out earlier that we just reached there earlier by a whisker. In short you also had similar plans but incompetency at your level alarmed our side and rest is history...Why are you ignoring this point???


Because of India's aggression on ground it is easy to prove. This is the point to remember.
That is what i am contesting...You are taking a one sided view...Rest is explained above...

Now if this is the main reason for your aggression then let me give you a simple reality. Pakistan not only gave permits for mountaineering on Siachen but also on Baltoro, Biafo, Hispar and many other glaciers which are present in the same vicinity of Siachen glacier. They all are part of same chain of glaciers seperated by a passes, ridges etc. Can you do the same to these glaciers as you did with Siachen? May be no? Why? Here comes the real reason for your aggression of 1984. Because one they are not close to India and two because they aren't left unprotected by Pakistan at the mercy of India like Siachen.

You have already answered the question but have given it a wrong spin...Were those glaciers protected even during 84???

You did what you did in Siachen because of the above two reasons. You found a territory. It was unprotected. It was closer to you. And you invaded it. Now India doesn't even protest to Pakistan for giving permits to foreigners for ascents on K-2 or Broad peak even when they are in the Baltistan region which according to Indian govt is India's territory.
I will ask the same thing - were those glaciers protected even during 84?? Listen it is not a matter of what is protected and what is not...The entire J&K is an integral part of India however as per Shimla accord we are supposed to maintain the sancity of LOC...Unfortunately LOC was not extended beyond a certain point thinking that the land is inhabitable...Now both India and Pakistan draw the lines further with their own interpretation...As per ours Siachen belongs to us and K2 clearly lies on Pakistan side...Not sure what are you trying to say here....

I think I have said enough about this "solution". So not going to repeat myself again and again.We have already given you the solution but unfortunately like always you aren't accepting it. You started this madness and now because of your ego, you are continuing it.
The same way we are giving you a solution...Accept the current position and no this madness was not started by us...You cannot simply put all the blame on India...Pakistan is equally at fault..In fact they started it and we reacted....

Like you we have lost a lot of our jawans and none of them sacrificed their lives for accepting your aggression and occupation.

That is why i said there is not going to be any solution. It is just a waste of time...Anyhow i will sincerely advice listen to other side with an open heart and mind. Both sides have given lot of wrong info in their parts to keep the public sentiments checked....It is about time we should break that impasse...
 
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And we won't accept it. Pre-1984 situation and if you don't trust Pakistan engage third party to resolve the issue. Enough said.

Accept....don't accept... nobody in India cares. You are the guys who want this demilitarised, we will agree if our conditions are met. Otherwise status quo suits us just fine. It is not as if Pakistan is our "best friend" that we need to concern ourselves with what you think. If you have nothing to offer in return, all you are are doing is whining. We are not interested in humouring you. In any case Pakistani assertions that India must do this or that is bewildering, why must we do anything for you? Where our interests collide, out leaders & our military officers are paid salaries to look out for our interests, not yours or anyone else's. Time to wake up & smell the coffee !
 
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Let’s take Siachen, where the bodies of more than 135 of our soldiers and civilians lie buried after the massive weekend landslide. India’s aggressive anti-Pakistan posture is responsible for this and other tragedies in our region. Kashmir is in dispute since 1948 and yet Pakistan never placed troops there. We are in Siachen today because, without provocation, India raised the stakes in 1984 by occupying the peaks on the glaciers.

I was wondering how come none of the Zaid Hamid brigade not yet blamed the recent deaths in Siachen on India.

Finally.
 
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I would say if Siachen is sustainable from cost perspective so be it. DRDO has been making improvements over years for the forces by way of self-sustaining and energy efficient shelters, glacier toilets, herbal cures, yoga as alternate to exercises due to the less oxygen needed. We have seen the casualities reduce over the years and we will continue to reduce the casualities. As the economy grows, our defence budget continues to grow. If Pakistan's defence budget is $6.5 bill, we can spend equivalent money in these kind of ventures instead of allowing their budget to be spent efficiently elsewhere. It was unfortunate that some brave souls in both sides die - RIP. But now Pakistan would be looking to avoid anymore incidents like what happened in the recent past and the money spent here will be less money spent say in other ventures like nuclear weapons development.
 
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Accept....don't accept... nobody in India cares. You are the guys who want this demilitarised, we will agree if our conditions are met. Otherwise status quo suits us just fine. It is not as if Pakistan is our "best friend" that we need to concern ourselves with what you think. If you have nothing to offer in return, all you are are doing is whining. We are not interested in humouring you. In any case Pakistani assertions that India must do this or that is bewildering, why must we do anything for you? Where our interests collide, out leaders & our military officers are paid salaries to look out for our interests, not yours or anyone else's. Time to wake up & smell the coffee !

Nothing new in your post so I would give it a pass.

At least I like the way you have admitted that India is not interested in resolving long standing issues.
 
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Nothing new in your post so I would give it a pass.

At least I like the way you have admitted that India is not interested in resolving long standing issues.
so as per your argument "RESOLVING LONG STANDING ISSUES" means that we give up our upper hand and bow before you to make you happy.
Sorry we are not interested

I was wondering how come none of the Zaid Hamid brigade not yet blamed the recent deaths in Siachen on India.

Finally.
They are too dumb to think on their own, now that you have posted that this can be blamed on INDIA, tomorrow this guy will accuse us after he sees your post. :alcoholic:
 
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Former RAW chief on Siachen and why India will not give it up unless the AGPL is signed :

“The Indian Army climbed to the Saltoro Ridge in 1984 to cut off Pakistan’s plans [sic] to access beyond Saltoro to the Karakoram Pass. This would have enabled Pakistan access to Tibet and also threaten Ladakh. Pakistan and China would have access to each other through the Khunjerab Pass on the Karakoram Highway via Xinjiang and to Tibet through the Karakoram Pass. The Saltoro Ridge provided Indian forces with strategic heights looking into… Gilgit and Baltistan. Such an advantage must not be given up for some obscure short-term political gain without a document to establish one’s credentials .”

Surely he knows better than fanbois here.

Also, Lt Gen (retd) Abdul Qayyum in his April 9, 2012 TV Talk show claimed that he had landed in military helicopter at the top of Siachin in 1982 obviously for some planning.

(Still available for posters to verify.)

This was two years before India decided to have physical control of the area on its side of LOC in 1984.
 
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I love learning new things and don't hesitate in accepting where i am wrong...I hope i will get the same treatment from you...

Humm...

Listen such accusations are not going to do any good. Let's refrain from this...We don't accept any third party intervention and this stand has been there from decades...This particular stand has nothing to do with Siachen as was being suggested by you and this is what i want to say...Makes sense???

Third party intervention was asked by you. And if needed it should be asked again. No this part of your post doesn't make sense since you have no rational reasons for not including third party for the solution of this conflict. You have done it once and their is no harm in doing it again.

What does trust has anything to do with third party mediation? Obviously when two parties are in a conflict there will be deficit of trust....Your terror hubs are not helping the cause either...Anyhow there is a term called CBM's...For years we were harping on this and were even showing you the way out...trade was a starter in this direction...Though more then a decade late yet finally you reciprocated MFN status..Hopefully things will improve...

With all these long standing issues pending I doubt things can improve with all the ceremonial CBM's. We have seen what have we achieved with these CBM's and I am not a big fan of them.

There is no third party mediation in China-India border conflict...Does that mean both countries are not interested in solving the conflict???

China-India border is not a threat to peace of this region. I doubt any war is possible between the two countries in near future. On the other hand we have us who have failed to resolve our conflicts despite taking heavy human casualties and economic burden.

You might wanna ignore the fact but India believes that we are responsible enough to resolve conflicts on our own.

Well that isn't happening right now. And if Indian members are a reflection of their country's establishment I don't see anything happening in the future too.

We don't need arbitration from anyone...

Says you.

So honestly stop making such tall and one sided claims....

I would wait for a valid reason from you to stop from making such "tall and one sided claims".

I can also say the same...Did your foreign office check with us before considering Siachen to be part of Baltistan???

Lol why would we consult India about our territory? It was you who were being offended by Pakistan's "aggression". Not us. Do we consult you when we consider Baltoro or other Glaciers from the same region as part of Pakistan.

On what basis you started considering it to be part of Baltistan???

We consider all the glaciers of that region part of Baltistan. You might invade east on Baltoro from Siachen and can ask the same question in the future that how did you consider Baltoro to be part of Baltistan?

You had your interpretation and we had ours...

OK.

Thus you simply cannot point fingers at India and say that we started the hostilities....

Why can't we. Listen we were issuing permits to mountaineers yeas before Indian invasion of Siachen. Where was India at that time? Why didn't it asked Pakistan stop issuing permits to mountaineers. It was not just 1983-84 that Pakistan was issuing permits to foreigners. We used to issue permits even in the 70's after Simla agreement. Where was India all that time? Or shall I say it was just in 1984 India realized Pakistan's "aggression". :disagree:

In short you also had similar plans but incompetency at your level alarmed our side and rest is history...

If there were any plans like these it would have been in response of your aggression.

Why are you ignoring this point???

Not ignoring it but I am having hard time ignoring the fact that on ground it was India who reached no man's land first.

Were those glaciers protected even during 84???

No they were not protected. But after Indian invasion of Siachen Pakistan realized the threat that India can pose from Siachen hence took precautionary measures later to secure our territory. On the other hand India was busy securing the territory it occupied. Who knows after securing Siachen India's next target would have been any of the above glaciers.

Not sure what are you trying to say here....

I am just saying that you occupied Siachen because it was unprotected and if you had a chance you would have occupied other territories too claiming them India land like you are claiming Sicahen right now. But since you were preoccupied with combat on Siachen and Pakistan took counter measures to stop you from moving further you didn't.

The only reason for your invasion of Siachen was absence of Pakistani troops to defend it not Pakistan's "aggression".

The same way we are giving you a solution...

Not acceptable. We just don't want to set an example for further Indian aggressions in future. Accepting your positions would be equal to accepting your invasion and occupation of Siachen and that is ridiculous.

Pakistan is equally at fault..

Yeah it is Pakistan' fault that it trusted India and didn't deploy troops to counter check India.


That is why i said there is not going to be any solution. It is just a waste of time

Then why are you in favor of all those CBM's?

It is about time we should break that impasse...

Humm. :)

so as per your argument "RESOLVING LONG STANDING ISSUES" means that we give up our upper hand and bow before you to make you happy.
Sorry we are not interested

No not gifting the mighty high land but then you should be bold enough to admit that you don't want to resolve issues with your neighbors and all this dialogue and CBM's are a farce.
 
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Anyway what's the use in this discussion ? India has the high ground there and that grund is strategically important as pointed out by the former RAW chief.

So no way India is going to give it up to please Pakistan, just like Pakistan is not going to give up Gilgit-Baltistan to please India.

Autheticate, legalize the existing positions and going back to developing the countries with more vigor is the need of the hour and that is what India wants.


No not gifting the mighty high land but then you should be bold enough to admit that you don't want to resolve issues with your neighbors and all this dialogue and CBM's are a farce.

Resolving != blindly accepting Pakistani demands.

In the same way we can say Pakistan is not interested in resolving Kashmir because it does not go to pre-1948 position.

Authenticate the actual ground position line. Pakistan gets to keep what it has now without actually stationing the soldiers there and India gets to keep its part. WIN-WIN for both.
 
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