Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ?

[shr_bwp]

Sorry friend your conclusions are wrong.
Everyone in the list were die hard fighters all of them got heart problems, Flying takes a toll out of you. You have to stay fit for as long you are in PAF as a fighter pilot.
Our Killer Instinct used to go away when we landed all the above were excellent leaders and showed promise, Only thing wrong with them was most of them were crazy about flying they used to pull more hours than then there whole SQD.

Most of them are working on JF-17 project, Why not use the best of the best for our future.
Khalid Mahmood just became Grade 20 officer and Dotani retired at grade 22 back in the 90s, Rest of them some are retired and enjoying there lives and rest are working at the same scale they retired as civilians consultants with PAF.

With respect - I was just suggesting an alternative as to why these pilots who had done so well in the air when their lives were on the line did not make it into "management". I accept your conclusion that it was mostly heart issues - so thank you for your reply.

I am still curious about the "Schames" vs. the "Shams" thing - the first is listed as a Flt. Lt. and the second is shown as a Fly. Off. - are these the same person who got three in one day out of Dacca on 3rd or 4th Dec. 1971???? is it just typos???

 

[Canaan]

I think my son has already shed light on Giora kills he has 10 confirmed kills 1 unconfirmed, I was in the vicinity when this happed Where I cant say he shot pilots how had 10 to 15 hours of flight time and no combat experience no wounder he got so many, Plus I am sorry to say that training the Arabs was so difficult because they just didn't get it, In the morning you spent 2 hours training him and in the evening he forgets all. I have students all over the world according to my log book I have a total of 144 students, I have never raised my voice on any one but when training Arabs they brought me to a point where I would just think put my ejection pin in and eject which will throw him out of the plane

What would you say is the reason behind this? I'm dying to know...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

M M Alam is retired but not happily retired.

We get to hear he is dogged by intelligence agencies and in general his activities are restricted.

If he was so hugely right in Sept 1965 - what makes Pakistan think that he is wrong in his thinking, now?

I have no idea where you got that info. M M Alam is a free man, and a national icon. In Lahore, there is an entire road/avenue named after him (with some good restaurants there, I might add.....damn the construction going on though!!)



S. Sajad Haider was briefly (and wrongfully/sinfully) detained over Attock Conspiracy

read his book, you'll learn about what happened. But I can tell you that he is extremely nationalistic about Pakistan, but very critical of Ayub Khan and the Generals/war planners of the 65 and 71 wars; and critical of dictators in general (rightfully so).


There was Pilot Officer Mohammad Hanif who was detained at Peshawar Fort, by General Zia because the govt. accused him and several other officers of mutiny (this may be a myth, but this is what I have read)


other than that, most of our legend PAF figureheads are dead, or living private and well-deservedly happy lives.

 

[Muradk]

With respect - I was just suggesting an alternative as to why these pilots who had done so well in the air when their lives were on the line did not make it into "management". I accept your conclusion that it was mostly heart issues - so thank you for your reply.

I am still curious about the "Schames" vs. the "Shams" thing - the first is listed as a Flt. Lt. and the second is shown as a Fly. Off. - are these the same person who got three in one day out of Dacca on 3rd or 4th Dec. 1971???? is it just typos???

4th December 1971, Marked the beginning of the greatest air battle of the day, Led by Flt LT Shams-ul-Haq PAF nick name Skamish with a equally young spirited Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed on hid wing. 2 F-86s of NO14 SQD scrambled at 0845. Just as their wheels were locking-up the F-86s were fired upon by a flight of 4 Su-7s which were attacking the runway at that time. Shams shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, Shams downed another 2 more enemy Hunters while Shamshad bagged 1.

On that day 14 SQD pilots shot 9 enemy fighters for the loss of 3 F-86s.

Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed shot another hunter on the 6th of Dec.

 

[shr_bwp]

...snip...... Shams shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, Shams shot down two more ...snip.

Hopefully he was rewarded - awarded - appropriately?

Three "bad guys" in a couple of days is pretty good by anybody's shooting standard, eh?

My interest as the reader can tell is the East Pakistan theater in 1971 for no other reason than it has not received the same coverage as
West Pakistan, IMHO, on this forum. I was 10 years old then and one of the things you learn as you grow up is that it is very hard to get facts around our country's history and that is a shame.

There have been good signs in the recent past (Mr. Shuja Nawaz's book, Mr. Tariq Ali's book) contain tidbits that I did not know and find fascinating......I hope our people who have "retired" from active lives (political, military, government et al) have the courage to write stone-cold accurate accounts of their experiences which imho, what our current and subsequent generations need - to paraphrase someone much smarter then me: how do you know where to go to, if you do not know where you came from???

 

[Muradk]

Here let me give you a few facts

1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this.

[/IMG]


1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.

[/IMG]


That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.
plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.

 

[jalip]

Here let me give you a few facts

1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this.

[/IMG]


1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.

[/IMG]


That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.
plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.

that is awesome Sir
Sir Murk another question does Pakistan have sufficient air power to defend it self from indian air force or we need more air bases and fighter plan.
As in modern warfare army is relaying more and more on air force dont you think Sir that its the high time for pakistan to invest more in air force then army specially our air force never let us down in any war.
Thanks

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Here let me give you a few facts

1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this.

[/IMG]


1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.

[/IMG]


That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.
plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.

ohh my my... thats 18 destroyed 9 damaged IAF planes by just one sqd in the span of just 3 days? thats more then the planes we lost in the entire 65 war!

 

[Muradk]

Right now we are not doing bad our fleet is 95% operational, And yes we are investing in new fighters. Our missile defence system and Air Defence system are way advanced when IAF crossed into LOC we were on then in Sec. Pakistan is very powerful in Air -to-Air and Air-to-Ground. Combined force of PAF and Army ground to Air is excellent during our days the Army had big problem to identify fighter now they go through a 2 1/2 years of training before they are given a Stinger or any other weapon.
486 wing of PAF Air defence is spread all around the border with deadly precision weapons, They can enter Pakistan by surprise but cannot leave without being surprised. It will be a 1 way trip I assure you that.
From Karachi to Kashmir we have a radar system setup in a way that one radars signature overlaps the other so anything 6 feet long and 1 feet high will pop in within a sec. And these radars are not only over lapping each other they are over lapping at different altitudes.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Right now we are not doing bad our fleet is 95% operational, And yes we are investing in new fighters. Our missile defence system and Air Defence system are way advanced when IAF crossed into LOC we were on then in Sec. Pakistan is very powerful in Air -to-Air and Air-to-Ground. Combined force of PAF and Army ground to Air is excellent during our days the Army had big problem to identify fighter now they go through a 2 1/2 years of training before they are given a Stinger or any other weapon.
486 wing of PAF Air defence is spread all around the border with deadly precision weapons, They can enter Pakistan by surprise but cannot leave without being surprised. It will be a 1 way trip I assure you that.
From Karachi to Kashmir we have a radar system setup in a way that one radars signature overlaps the other so anything 6 feet long and 1 feet high will pop in within a sec. And these radars are not only over lapping each other they are over lapping at different altitudes.

admit. why was i arguing with the AD officer for!!! he kept on trying to tell me this but i kept on interrupting that pak has no BVR SAM...
thanks sir once again... very informative..

 

[Righteous_Fire]

admit. why was i arguing with the AD officer for!!! he kept on trying to tell me this but i kept on intercepting that pak has no BVR SAM...
thanks sir once again... very informative..

A BVR SAM?? what are you guys talking about ??

 

[Myth_buster_1]

A BVR SAM?? what are you guys talking about ??

something like S-300

 

[Righteous_Fire]

something like S-300

Yes, I understand but you said:

admit. why was i arguing with the AD officer for!!! he kept on trying to tell me this but i kept on intercepting that pak has no BVR SAM...
thanks sir once again... very informative..

So, where do we stand exactly?

 

[Comet]

An excellent thread with loads of knowledge about the Heroes.

For some reason, I can thank the useful posts by many specially Sir. Muradk.

My Question: What should be the criteria for judging the Best Pilot in Modern Air War? Should it be 'doing things by the book' or should it be 'doing things right'?

 

[Muradk]

An excellent thread with loads of knowledge about the Heroes.

For some reason, I can thank the useful posts by many specially Sir. Muradk.

My Question: What should be the criteria for judging the Best Pilot in Modern Air War? Should it be 'doing things by the book' or should it be 'doing things right'?

Just because you shoot down couple of fighters don't make you the best, What makes a fighter pilot best is when he is in the sky and you have a serious emergency. In that situation you get to know if he is good or not
example
My student Traiq Shahab was at 32000ft in an F-6 the plane was a dead stick he land that beast just by using trimmer only in books that is not possible specially with a fighter which doesn't glide. Now thats makes you best of the best. In such situations books and SOP goes out if the window. He can either choose to eject or choose to land, Same thing happend to Qadari but right before his finals the F-7 went inverted and crashed.