Which country is China's best/true friend?

[illusion8]

China and Russia just share common interests.

In fact, Russia's sheer power is a danger in itself, regardless of their intentions. They are a fantastic partner when our interests align (which is most of the time), but they can also be a terrible potential enemy simply due to their raw power.

Probably because of history - but I can easily see Russia supporting you if you ever get into any conflict.

 

[Enemy]

well, most of your forces were concentrated in west knowing well that east need defending. I wonder why?
You were not expecting India to attack west pakistan, right? Should you not have moved some of your assets to east given that you chose the time of actual war.

Whether the collapse of East Pakistan is a retreat or a complete surrender will be decided by history. Its too early to say anything about that.

 

[Levina]

In '99 even the Airforce & the Navy didn't know not even the rest of the Army so how can one expect another country to know what was happening ?

I had read a diary which belonged to a Pakistani army officer killed during the Kargil war,the plan was made well ahead.
And they even had helicopters which used to drop regular ration to these soldiers on the borders while they were hiding.
So its not really possible that the other Chiefs didnt know about it

Even nawaz knew the plans.. he was briefed abt it way before the ops started.. my father recieved nawaz himself......

Thanks for coming out in the open about it.

 

[illusion8]

I don't think it panned out like that but Ayub was an idiot so it might be possible !

At any rate if one read's the Shaba-Nama by Qudrut Ullah Shahab (a famous work by a well known career civil servant who worked with Ayub & his predecessors) he writes that on the eve of the 1962 War the Chinese Diplomat in Pakistan called him up & told him that we're about to do what you guys were about to do which means Kashmir would be significantly weak ! Shahab writes that that is all he needed to say & I hurried to the President (Ayub Khan) in the middle of the night & told him what the Chinese Diplomat had told us & do you know what Ayub's reply was 'You woke up at 3 in the morning to tell me this ?'

And he says that we all felt like smashing our heads against a wall or something after hearing that but he was the President !



Pakistan is not taking any Aid anymore !

But I never said Pakistan against the US or Japan - I said thats what the people of Pakistan would want !

Of course I agree, those three are our biggest donors as well similar to yours.

In the '71 War the Passes were closed, in the '71 War whatever was happening in the Eastern Wing (East Pakistan) even the GHQ didn't know because Niazi was telling them tales of victory & what not whilst the idiot he was he was loosing territory !

The biggest elephant in the room was the Soviets - China wouldn't have dared opening a front against us - especially when the Russians had pointed all their missiles towards China.

In '99 even the Airforce & the Navy didn't know not even the rest of the Army so how can one expect another country to know what was happening ?

Oh they knew alright what was going on, Mushy was camping in Beijing trying to enlist the Chinese help for the Kargil war.

 

[livingdead]

Whether the collapse of East Pakistan is a retreat or a complete surrender will be decided by history. Its too early to say anything about that.

same can be said about any war. Why only 71.?

 

[Enemy]

same can be said about any war. Why only 71.?

Of course.

 

[livingdead]

Of course.

so basically outcome of each war cannot be decided whether it is a defeat of one side, just because we dont know what will happen in future?
I would prefer the traditional way of measuring success after end of hostility of each war, especially if no significant reverses for a decade or so. Will call it new one another war may be.
Thats just my way of remaining sane.

but I got your 'picture abhi baaki hai' bit....

 

[BoQ77]

Let me show you a case of China policy.

Chinese is both clever and coward,
After Vietnam war, China used Khmer Rouge as Cambodia ruled government to attack and kill Vietnamese civilians living near the West-South borders of Vietnam in 1977-1978

Khmer Rouge then was kicked out of Cambodia by Vietnam like the way Taliban was US kick within 1 month.
China express their support to Khmer Rouge by Sino-Vietnam border conflict 1979 , just during few weeks.

What happen next ? Khmer Rouge continue to be slaughtered by Vietnam, the new government Vietnam-pro built and last until today with Mr. Hunsen. China cannot do anything else.

--------
A friend is who you cannot buy by money.
To Vietnam, one of them is India

 

[Armstrong]

Oh they knew alright what was going on, Mushy was camping in Beijing trying to enlist the Chinese help for the Kargil war.

And what do you present as 'evidence' for that ?

I had read a diary which belonged to a Pakistani army officer killed during the Kargil war,the plan was made well ahead.
And they even had helicopters which used to drop regular ration to these soldiers on the borders while they were hiding.
So its not really possible that the other Chiefs didnt know about it

None of the Other Chiefs knew about this - both the Navy & the Airforce were caught off guard & this incident was the reason why the inter-services relations were strained so much before Kiyani came to sort them out ! You should listen to the interviews of some of the Naval & Airforce Personnel of that time - They all can't be lying !

P.S Army Aviation Corp is not manned by either the Naval or Airforce Personnel !

 

[illusion8]

And what do you present as 'evidence' for that ?

As evidence to Mushy's travels to China during the Kargil war? - you should check his itinerary - the intercepted call by Chinese intelligence between Mushy and one of his generals asking for status updates about the war is proof enough. I believe he made 3 trips to Beijing during that war period.

The story goes as - the Chinese outrightly rejected him and in fact asked him to withdraw his troops from Kargil - there are Chinese statements to that affect.

 

[Armstrong]

well, most of your forces were concentrated in west knowing well that east need defending. I wonder why?
You were not expecting India to attack west pakistan, right? Should you not have moved some of your assets to east given that you chose the time of actual war.

The trick was to never get into that position to begin with !

Whatever followed was inevitable - You can't hold land when you are astronomically outnumbered & cut-off from your nearest base !

As evidence to Mushy's travels to China during the Kargil war? - you should check his itinerary - the intercepted call by Chinese intelligence between Mushy and his NLI commander asking for status updates about the war is proof enough. I believe he made 3 trips to Beijing during that war period.

Intercepted Calls by Mushy & the NLI ?

And that too by the Chinese Intel ?

This better not be a finding of some sh*tty article with 'unnamed & unknown sources' !

 

[SrNair]

I don't think it panned out like that but Ayub was an idiot so it might be possible !

At any rate if one read's the Shaba-Nama by Qudrut Ullah Shahab (a famous work by a well known career civil servant who worked with Ayub & his predecessors) he writes that on the eve of the 1962 War the Chinese Diplomat in Pakistan called him up & told him that we're about to do what you guys were about to do which means Kashmir would be significantly weak ! Shahab writes that that is all he needed to say & I hurried to the President (Ayub Khan) in the middle of the night & told him what the Chinese Diplomat had told us & do you know what Ayub's reply was 'You woke up at 3 in the morning to tell me this ?'

And he says that we all felt like smashing our heads against a wall or something after hearing that but he was the President !



Pakistan is not taking any Aid anymore !

But I never said Pakistan against the US or Japan - I said thats what the people of Pakistan would want !



In the '71 War the Passes were closed, in the '71 War whatever was happening in the Eastern Wing (East Pakistan) even the GHQ didn't know because Niazi was telling them tales of victory & what not whilst the idiot he was he was loosing territory !

In '99 even the Airforce & the Navy didn't know not even the rest of the Army so how can one expect another country to know what was happening ?

So you support China even if they dont help you in case of bad of situation.1971 argue can be conceded but 1999 episode I dont think so.If Britian or any other allies of US is trapped in a
situation like this ,I am sure US will come for help.But in 3 case ,1971,1965,1999 Chinese only issue warning not action.But strangely US come for the help of pakistan in 1971 war against India,they even move their seventh fleet towards Bay of Bengal to intimidate India.Actually there is no friendship in geopolitics ,but only national interest .whether it is India or Pakistan or China.I hope you can understand

 

[illusion8]

The trick was to never get into that position to begin with !

Whatever followed was inevitable - You can't hold land when you are astronomically outnumbered & cut-off from your nearest base !



Intercepted Calls by Mushy & the NLI ?

And that too by the Chinese Intel ?

This better not be a finding of some sh*tty article with 'unnamed & unknown sources' !

My bad, not the NLI commander but one of the so called top four of his coterie - I changed that in my post.

 

[Vinod2070]

Only Pakistan.

Don't you think it is a bit too blatant? Even by the standards here!

 

[Armstrong]

My bad, not the NLI commander but one of the so called top four of his coterie Gereral Aziz - I changed that in my post.

Ahhh General Aziz !

I hope it isn't some excerpt from his book - Hakoomat keiii Mazeiii & then 'Mushy was this & that' !

Khair at any rate I don't recall reading anywhere about the Chinese Intelligence or any other Intel intercepting this - Especially considering the fact that is sounds very implausible that the COAS & his Top Aides in a Top...Top Secret Correspondence wouldn't have catered to the fact 'Ohhh Bhaiii Line Secure Haiii Yaa Nahin' !