When Charlie Hebdo Denied Freedom of Expresion to its Cartoonist

[Abu Zolfiqar]

France never cared for those scumbags leaving Syria. Do you believe that their intelligence agency couldn't track them down before leaving for Syria and Iraq? Of course they could, but they just didn't give a $hit, because they were going to Syria to fight Assad and to kill Syrians, and they don't hate that to happen in their hearts. But now that only one of those terrorists launched a domestic attack, they are crying all over the media. No one even mentions Europe and western policies in ME. Didn't the U.S invasion along with UK and others put the foundations of ISIS in Iraq?

history has funny ways of repeating itself

Sadly no one sees that! it is disgusting how everyone wants to be the first to point to a Muslim without knowing what a Muslim is!

ISIS: Enslaving, having sex with 'unbelieving' women, girls is OK - CNN.com

ISIS, Mexican Drug Cartels Teaming Up? - Leah Barkoukis

Self-funded and deep-rooted: How ISIS makes its millions - CNN.com


list is quite expansive!!

I know these French gunmen werent directly related to ISIS (not from the info we have at least) but these are the exact same type of animals....violence in the name of religion but in reality they are weak minded criminals....losers/outcasts

 

[VCheng]

Generally, your kind of oblique defense of this kind of atrocity is directed at the victims, not at the perpetrator(s). You do not have the courage to tell other peoples with different interpretations of 'freedom of speech' to be as understanding as you want us to be. You do not want to say to the Muslims: 'Please understand that these filthy infidels have not yet received Allah into their hearts. They are like immature children, so let us be the tolerant adults in this world.'

What I see is common...

First...There are the usual obligatory condemnations.

Then...Dragged in US involvement in the ME, support for the Joos, invasion of Iraq, etc.

Then...Historical wrongs of Christians such as the Inquisition.

Then...Indirectly blaming the victims by saying they provoked the emotional response by <doing whatever>.

And then ..... ALL of this painful and distorted rationalization fails as Muslims themselves sink further into the swamp of their own religious confusion and adamantly refuse to grab the lifeline being thrown to them by civilized society. A self-limiting problem for the world? Perhaps.

 

[Dubious]

ISIS: Enslaving, having sex with 'unbelieving' women, girls is OK - CNN.com

ISIS, Mexican Drug Cartels Teaming Up? - Leah Barkoukis

Self-funded and deep-rooted: How ISIS makes its millions - CNN.com


list is quite expansive!!

I know these French gunmen werent directly related to ISIS (not from the info we have at least) but these are the exact same type of animals....violence in the name of religion but in reality they are weak minded criminals....losers/outcasts

agreed!

 

[VCheng]

Let us take the apologist's pathetic argument and bring it a little closer to home:

The Peshawar school massacre is to be condemned, no matter what. Or shall we try to argue that it was only an understandable reaction to the killings being carried out by the Army in FATA. Getting angry at me? Wait. Let me say this:

"I have not defended what they did. By pointing out how it happened or why it is happening is not a defense."

(Is it okay now? No, it is NOT.)

 

[500]

Immediately after the Charlie Hebdo attack the incitement campaign against Jews was started. Drawing this type of cartoons:

Of course its complete false. Charlie Hebdo did made cartoons against Jews and Israel, including the Holocaust and Moses:

Super cute Hitler says: hello Jews, how are you? (sounds same as how is gas?)

4 Jews were killed just for being Jews, not enough for u? U need more?

 

[jhungary]

I love it when people open their mouth and they have no idea why and what they are actually talking about...

It is as if somehow they successfully blame the west then the burden of resoonsibility is not in them by association but instead it was the west fault that the Charlie Hebdo happened.

I am just going to response by asking 2 questions

1.) Do you have any idea why Europe have a ban on Holoclaust denial topic? Hint 1. This have nothing to do with Muslim. Hint 2. This coincide with only country in europe that have affected directly During WW2

2.) Did the west or anyone blame the children of Peshawa going to school resulting an instigation of the terrorist attack? Should we then talk about the right of education in Pakistan and how a shame and farce it is where children will go to school and get shot?

All in all, those people who died in Charlie Hebdo are still on the morgue and not yet buried, can any of you at least wait for them to buried before the kind of discussion?

Thank you

@halloweene @Gabriel92

 

[Desert Fox]

A few years old news but very relevant today:



French cartoonist Sine on trial on charges of anti-Semitism over Sarkozy jibe - Telegraph

PS: Dedicated to all the Pakistanis who were like shah sai ziada shah kai wafadar after what happened in Paris a day ago.

Interesting find my friend. Goes to show the amount of hypocrisy and double standards within these Western establishments.

Making fun of Islamic religious figures = Okay

Making fun of Christian religious figures = Okay

BUT GOD FORBID anyone makes fun of Jews or else they are "evil anti-semetic Nazis".

I bet you the hypocrites running Charlie Hebdo won't even dare touch the Holocaust and the "6 million gassed Jews" myth because they're so called "freedom of speech" will go right out the window as soon as they do.


NOTICE: I'm in no way justifying the massacre that took place within the past couple of days. The murder of the 12 people was in no way justified. Taking anyone's life is never justified.

1.) Do you have any idea why Europe have a ban on Holoclaust denial topic? Hint 1. This have nothing to do with Muslim. Hint 2. This coincide with only country in europe that have affected directly During WW2

It's a historical event and thus no one should be jailed for questioning it. Freedom of speech. Or does freedom of speech only apply when its suits the interest of a certain people??

And of course it has nothing to do with Muslims. The point is why should someone go to jail/be silenced for making a statement questioning a particular historical event while making fun of religious/historical Muslim figures is tolerated and considered freedom of speech.

 

[jhungary]

Interesting find my friend. Goes to show the amount of hypocrisy and double standards within these Western establishments.

Making fun of Islamic religious figures = Okay

Making fun of Christian religious figures = Okay

BUT GOD FORBID anyone makes fun of Jews or else they are "evil anti-semetic Nazis".

I bet you the hypocrites running Charlie Hebdo won't even dare touch the Holocaust and the "6 million gassed Jews" myth because they're so called "freedom of speech" will go right out the window as soon as they do.


NOTICE: I'm in no way justifying the massacre that took place within the past couple of days. The murder of the 12 people was in no way justified. Taking anyone's life is never justified.


It's a historical event and thus no one should be jailed for questioning it. Freedom of speech. Or does freedom of speech only apply when its suits the interest of a certain people??

And of course it has nothing to do with Muslims. The point is why should someone go to jail/be silenced for making a statement questioning a particular historical event while making fun of religious/historical Muslim figures is tolerated and considered freedom of speech.

if you have to put a word in it, the topic is a taboo at best, its not like saying this stuff will hurt anyone about anything. But simply saying this stuff hurt. Period. and it just not hurting Jewish population, but hurting European as a whole.

Can we debate an historical event? Yes, in what capacity? Regardless whether or not you believe Holocoaust ever happens is your own idea, and with Europe, they made up their mind and there are nothing more one can debate whether or not they exists. In Germany, not only the holoclaust denial is ban, but they banned any form of discussion, display and practice of Nasism, even at the height of cold war Germany did not outlaw communism party, they do however, target those people, but when they feel thats enough of talk, and further discussion would only hurt people , this is on their absolute right to choose which topic is free and which tooic is suppressed.

And finally , one also need to know freedom of speech is not a blanket to cover all the speech, it only cover lawful speech, alas the one that within the legal limit.

Think about this, if I wrote you a note saying I am gonna kill you and detail how i am gonna kill you and with what? Could i use freedom of speech to get out of my eventual attempted murder charge?

 

[Desert Fox]

if you have to put a word in it, the topic is a taboo at best, its not like saying this stuff will hurt anyone about anything. But simply saying this stuff hurt. Period. and it just not hurting Jewish population, but hurting European as a whole.

Can we debate an historical event? Yes, in what capacity? Regardless whether or not you believe Holocoaust ever happens is your own idea, and with Europe, they made up their mind and there are nothing more one can debate whether or not they exists. In Germany, not only the holoclaust denial is ban, but they banned any form of discussion, display and practice of Nasism, even at the height of cold war Germany did not outlaw communism party, they do however, target those people, but when they feel thats enough of talk, and further discussion would only hurt people , this is on their absolute right to choose which topic is free and which tooic is suppressed.

And finally , one also need to know freedom of speech is not a blanket to cover all the speech, it only cover lawful speech, alas the one that within the legal limit.

Think about this, if I wrote you a note saying I am gonna kill you and detail how i am gonna kill you and with what? Could i use freedom of speech to get out of my eventual attempted murder charge?

So in other words because questioning the mainstream interpretation of the Holocaust can hurt the feelings of a certain concerned group of people therefore it is not allowed and you can get arrested /ostracized for questioning this particular historical event?

So what about the feelings of millions of Muslims when French cartoonists mock our religious/historical figures?? Oh, but that's freedom of speech. That sure doesn't sound fair to me.


And not everyone who questions the Holocaust is a Nazi, in fact many Communists and Socialists also ended up in jail because they disagreed with the mainstream narrative of the Holocaust.

And finally , one also need to know freedom of speech is not a blanket to cover all the speech, it only cover lawful speech, alas the one that within the legal limit.

Think about this, if I wrote you a note saying I am gonna kill you and detail how i am gonna kill you and with what? Could i use freedom of speech to get out of my eventual attempted murder charge?

Well, that's different actually. Threatening someone is not the same as questioning a historical event. Simply saying "gee, i wonder if 6 million Jews were really gassed by the Nazis" can get you arrested, you can loose your job/livelihood, and you will have to live the rest of your life with a damaged reputation all because you questioned a historical event.

 

[Musafir117]

Western definition on Freedom of Speech is a joke, they proudly insult
Jesus E.S (Hadrat Isa ES) make laugh and mockery for fun but when North Korea call Obama a Monkey their up and down start burning. Standard

 

[Developereo]

I love it when people open their mouth and they have no idea why and what they are actually talking about...

Oh, the irony of YOU writing that comment.

This is going to be good...

1.) Do you have any idea why Europe have a ban on Holoclaust denial topic? Hint 1. This have nothing to do with Muslim. Hint 2. This coincide with only country in europe that have affected directly During WW2

You miss the whole point that there are sensibilities in any society and Europeans protect their sensibilities by laws restricting speech.

The Holocaust is a historical event and, like all historical events, it should be open for discussion and debate. The US allows debate on the topic, affirming that freedom of speech protects such discussions. Various European countries do not, highlighting their hypocrisy when they thump their chest about freedom of speech.

Threatening someone is not the same as questioning a historical event. Simply saying "gee, i wonder if 6 million Jews were really gassed by the Nazis" can get you arrested, you can loose your job/livelihood, and you will have to live the rest of your life with a damaged reputation all because you questioned a historical event.

Exactly.

I love it when the apologists for hypocrisy bring up speech involving violence. Incitement to violence and similar hate speech is already restricted by existing laws.

The European speech laws around Holocaust specifically criminalize non-violent discussions on the topic.

 

[jhungary]

So in other words because questioning the mainstream interpretation of the Holocaust can hurt the feelings of a certain concerned group of people therefore it is not allowed and you can get arrested /ostracized for questioning this particular historical event?

So what about the feelings of millions of Muslims when French cartoonists mock our religious/historical figures?? Oh, but that's freedom of speech. That sure doesn't sound fair to me.


And not everyone who questions the Holocaust is a Nazi, in fact many Communists and Socialists also ended up in jail because they disagreed with the mainstream narrative of the Holocaust.

That's where i say you don't know much about this law......and yet you are trying to criticize it existence.

To be honest, it's probably my bad, i did assume you know something about Gayssot Act, which is the law outlaw Holocaust Denier, but obliviously I am wrong, you seems like you know nothing about this law.

LAW No 90-615 to repress acts of racism, anti-semitism and xenophobia (1990)

MODIFICATIONS OF THE LAW OF JULY 29, 1881 ON THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS Art 8. - Article 24 of the Law on the Freedom of the Press of 29 July 1881 is supplemented by the following provisions: In the event of judgment for one of the facts envisaged by the preceding subparagraph, the court will be able moreover to order: Except when the responsibility for the author of the infringement is retained on the base for article 42 and the first subparagraph for article 43 for this law or the first three subparagraphs for article 93-3 for the law No 82-652 for July 29, 1982 on the audio-visual communication, the deprivation of the rights enumerated to the 2o and 3o of article 42 of the penal code for imprisonment of five years maximum;

Art 9. – As an amendment to Article 24 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 24 (a) is as follows written: <<Art. 24 (a). - those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity such as they are defined by Article 6 of the statute of the international tribunal military annexed in the agreement of London of August 8, 1945 and which were a carried out either by the members of an organization declared criminal pursuant to Article 9 of the aforementioned statute, or by a person found guilty such crimes by a French or international jurisdiction shall be punished by one month to one year's imprisonment or a fine.

Art 13. - It is inserted, after article 48-1 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 48-2 thus written: <<Art. 48-2. - publication or publicly expressed opinion encouraging those to whom it is addressed to pass a favourable moral judgment on one or more crimes against humanity and tending to justify these crimes (including collaboration) or vindicate their perpetrators shall be punished by one to five years' imprisonment or a fine.[24]

The act itself does not solely outlaw Holocaust, but it outlaw EVERY DENIER THEORY ON CRIME AGAINST HUMINITY. The law stated that way because it is aginast racial discrimination for any group of people discussing and denialing any crime that committed against a particular group of people.

In this sense, if any French Citizens talk about or denied the holocaust exist, that can be translated into Racial Discrimination. And this is done fairly so by gurantee ANY TYPE OF CRIME AGAINST HUMINITY.

So, as an example, if the French or anyone kills a lot of muslim before and committed what outlined as "Crime Against Huminity" against Muslim, the law would apply and "Muslim Holocaust" denial or denier would be outlaw as per Gayssot Act.

As for what and how some crime to be determined as a Crime Against Huminity, that would be another story and this is not related to the french at all, it is related to the London Conference in 1945.

By the way, the Gayssot Act does not just passed after WW2, in fact it was passed in 1990, and if the law outlaw EVERY denial/denier Crime against Huminity, i don't see how hypocritic or double standard the law can be? And religion and Histroical facts are two different and seperate issue, hence you cannot denial Jewish Holocaust exist, but you can have a fair go on the Jew, it would be the same if anyone committed a "Crime against Huminity" scale atrosity toward muslim, that would be illegal to denied that but still muslim and mohammad is fair go.

In fact, the International human and political court have judge in favor of the French government on this laaw and say this does not violate any human and political right on anyone. And that's not EU court, that's an International court

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayssot_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#France

Well, that's different actually. Threatening someone is not the same as questioning a historical event. Simply saying "gee, i wonder if 6 million Jews were really gassed by the Nazis" can get you arrested, you can loose your job/livelihood, and you will have to live the rest of your life with a damaged reputation all because you questioned a historical event.

What i was saying is that Freedom of speech do still need to respect to the law, and no, we cannot say something like "There is no harm saying this" Be that a physical threat or simply a joke.

Try this for a size,

what happen if i say "I have a bomb" in an airport?
What happen if i say This bank is out of cash?
What happened if i say you are gay without actually knowing??

There are a lot of law that seems to go against the "Freedom of Speech" and yes, indeed you have your right to say whatever you want, but the court of law also have the right to prosecute you from saying said thing, IF THEY ARE OUT OF SCOPE OF THE LAW


Now, do I made myself clear?

Oh, the irony of YOU writing that comment.

This is going to be good...



You miss the whole point that there are sensibilities in any society and Europeans protect their sensibilities by laws restricting speech.

The Holocaust is a historical event and, like all historical events, it should be open for discussion and debate. The US allows debate on the topic, affirming that freedom of speech protects such discussions. Various European countries do not, highlighting their hypocrisy when they thump their chest about freedom of speech.



Exactly.

I love it when the apologists for hypocrisy bring up speech involving violence. Incitement to violence and similar hate speech is already restricted by existing laws.

The European speech laws around Holocaust specifically criminalize non-violent discussions on the topic.

lol, is Mr D again.

as usually, you are in the right and I am in the wrong, you know Europe (infact everywhere) better than I am or anyone that live there.

I am surprise you are still posting, why don't you just call me a "Bigot" or "Uneducated" and correct my grammar, and say your English is better than mind? And then called me a loser and declare yourselves a winner and get this over with ??

lol

go-go Mr D. I am starting a Mr.D fan club who want to join?? @gambit @US_statedept_retired @Syed.Ali.Haider ?

In all serious, all your question have been answered by my previous post, take it or leave, but please do not quote me again

 

[Foggy_Bottom]

That's where i say you don't know much about this law......and yet you are trying to criticize it existence.

To be honest, it's probably my bad, i did assume you know something about Gayssot Act, which is the law outlaw Holocaust Denier, but obliviously I am wrong, you seems like you know nothing about this law.



The act itself does not solely outlaw Holocaust, but it outlaw EVERY DENIER THEORY ON CRIME AGAINST HUMINITY. The law stated that way because it is aginast racial discrimination for any group of people discussing and denialing any crime that committed against a particular group of people.

In this sense, if any French Citizens talk about or denied the holocaust exist, that can be translated into Racial Discrimination. And this is done fairly so by gurantee ANY TYPE OF CRIME AGAINST HUMINITY.

So, as an example, if the French or anyone kills a lot of muslim before and committed what outlined as "Crime Against Huminity" against Muslim, the law would apply and "Muslim Holocaust" denial or denier would be outlaw as per Gayssot Act.

As for what and how some crime to be determined as a Crime Against Huminity, that would be another story and this is not related to the french at all, it is related to the London Conference in 1945.

By the way, the Gayssot Act does not just passed after WW2, in fact it was passed in 1990, and if the law outlaw EVERY denial/denier Crime against Huminity, i don't see how hypocritic or double standard the law can be? And religion and Histroical facts are two different and seperate issue, hence you cannot denial Jewish Holocaust exist, but you can have a fair go on the Jew, it would be the same if anyone committed a "Crime against Huminity" scale atrosity toward muslim, that would be illegal to denied that but still muslim and mohammad is fair go.

In fact, the International human and political court have judge in favor of the French government on this laaw and say this does not violate any human and political right on anyone. And that's not EU court, that's an International court

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayssot_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#France





What i was saying is that Freedom of speech do still need to respect to the law, and no, we cannot say something like "There is no harm saying this" Be that a physical threat or simply a joke.

Try this for a size,

what happen if i say "I have a bomb" in an airport?
What happen if i say This bank is out of cash?
What happened if i say you are gay without actually knowing??

There are a lot of law that seems to go against the "Freedom of Speech" and yes, indeed you have your right to say whatever you want, but the court of law also have the right to prosecute you from saying said thing, IF THEY ARE OUT OF SCOPE OF THE LAW


Now, do I made myself clear?



lol, is Mr D again.

as usually, you are in the right and I am in the wrong, you know Europe (infact everywhere) better than I am or anyone that live there.

I am surprise you are still posting, why don't you just call me a "Bigot" or "Uneducated" and correct my grammar, and say your English is better than mind? And then called me a loser and declare yourselves a winner and get this over with ??

lol

go-go Mr D. I am starting a Mr.D fan club who want to join?? @gambit @US_statedept_retired @Syed.Ali.Haider ?

In all serious, all your question have been answered by my previous post, take it or leave, but please do not quote me again

What I've noticed about people like Mr. D and some others here is not just a complete lack of understanding of the topics they choose to make into a cause, but also an ignorance of the effect it has.

They are happy preaching to the choir of handful conspiracists who buy into their meme, and this seems to satisfy them. But what they miss is every time the other side, which includes moderate muslims who read it, they see it as soft support of the " excuse making machine". What further exacerbates it is people like Mr D. peddle themselves as moderates, which cannot be further from the truth. He is the most dangerous kind of radical IMO i.e. one who masks himself.

Sadly this in turn feeds into the notion that muslim majority give a tacit support for terrorists acts. WHICH can't be further than the truth- but it does not help.

 

[jhungary]

You pulled an incident from decades ago to prove what? That the one time decades ago they were not fair hence it justifies the killing? And don't give me this pretend B___ you know what and tell me that is not your objective.

I'd like to read the moderates here stand up against such bigotry and ridiculous


What I've noticed about people like Mr. D and some others here is not just a complete lack of understanding of the topics they choose to make into a cause, but also an ignorance of the effect it has.

They are happy preaching to the choir of handful conspiracists who buy into their meme, and this seems to satisfy them. But what they miss is every time the other side, which includes moderate muslims who read it, they see it as soft support of the " excuse making machine". What further exacerbates it is people like Mr D. peddle themselves as moderates, which cannot be further from the truth. He is the most dangerous kind of radical IMO i.e. one who masks himself.

Sadly this in turn feeds into the notion that muslim majority give a tacit support for terrorists acts. WHICH can't be further than the truth- but it does not help.

As the old saying goes...

If you want to argue with a 12 year's old, you need to lower yourselves to the 12 year's old level. Well, I don't know about you or anybody, but I am not prepare to lower myself to a 12 year's old level in order to have a go with the "Fictional Win" which keep getting him high about.

well, that's what Mr D is, he is going to mow us all down with his own version of conspiracy theory, yet it does not take much to fuel the Conspiracy theory, but it's hard to disenchant the theory once they are over the top with people support. And that's the time that theory would be the most dangerous.

 

[Zarvan]

@Akheilos @HRK @dexter @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @American Pakistani @Jazzbot @Zarvan

There is never absolute freedom of speech you can't hurt sentiments of 1.6 billion people and make fun of that person who they love more than there life and if you are going to do that than don't 1.6 billion people to remain peaceful