What's brewing in Washington?

[Irfan Baloch]

@Perception
its good to know that you are not a bot. in the past you have been only posting news items without any comments. We normally put bets who would post anything coming out of anywhere in the world that show Pakistan badly, will it be help seeker or you ?

but please give yourself a rest and don’t get too much worked up with an article which the writer has said himself is an opinion. kindly do comment but without the emotional discharge. your first post deserved to be deleted because you did a good job of flame baiting.

the post above still shows that the fumes have not died down yet. I appreciate your effort though and I give credit to all Indians who have engaged in the discussion with more than the rhetoric and ranting. But if it cant be helped then please do launch an official protest. I know you guys have been busy taking offence on anything that is said in jest or as a matter of fact that shows India in a bad way. Who knows if the Top Gear’s Jeremy Clarkson’s comments incensed your government so extremely that it awarded MMRCA contract to the French?

By the way, good commentary regarding Iran Vs India comparison. But Americans are not doing like for like comparison here. Iran has black gold and that makes the Yankee mare go round

 

[VCheng]

With all this back and forth, I am still waiting for the crux of the discussion. The questions in the last paragraph of the original post deserve good answers and discussion.

Can we move on to those please?

.........................................
How can Pakistan convince America to re-calibrate its view of the region, to convince it that it is more useful alive than dead? What are the common interests that Pakistan can propose to change the American administration's mindset? And, just as importantly, what are likely to be the main roadblocks derailing any Pakistani efforts?............................

 

[Irfan Baloch]

are you addressing us all or only Developereo?

 

[Perceptron]

@Perception
its good to know that you are not a bot. you have been only posting news items without any comments. We normally put bets who would post anything coming out of anywhere in the world that show Pakistan badly, will it be help seeker or yourself  ?

Thanx Irfan for officially recognizing me as a face though i did automate on the news items extraction part (wrote an RSS fetcher with keywords and retrieved a top-K list of articles which is postworthy ) ; Us nerds need to have a life right ?

but please give yourself a rest and don’t get too much worked up with an article which the writer has said himself is an opinion. kindly do comment but without the emotional discharge. your first post deserved to be deleted because you did a good job of flame baiting.
the post above still shows that the fumes have not died down yet. I appreciate your effort though and I give credit to all Indians who have engaged in the discussion with more than the rhetoric and ranting. But if it cant be helped then please do launch an official protest.

I agree that i might have gone slightly overboard on seeing the content ; If u wish me to get off this thread (this forum maybe), then heck, I am off. As i mentioned in an earlier post, i consider OP-EDs from a perspective of a paper. Cite sources, provide insights and give ur analysis. I tore into the OP merely because i saw none of those in the post.

I know you guys have been busy taking offence on anything that is said in jest or as a matter of fact that shows India in a bad way. Who knows if the Top Gear’s Jeremy Clarkson’s comments incensed your government so extremely that it awarded MMRCA contract to the French?

Lol, i am simply not bothered about who does what in which show. I do not represent the voice of my Government and i can only vouch for myself. Am i ashamed or demoralized or suffer inferiority of threads talking about Poverty/Toilets/Sanitation/Caste-System/Insurgencies ? I know that these are failures that are not endemic/systemic and we have a robust forum(through polls/elections/democracy) to address them. So yes, i say Bring It On.

By the way, good commentary regarding Iran Vs India comparison. But Americans are not doing like for like comparison here. Iran has black gold and that makes the Yankee mare go round

Firstly I did not bring Iran up ; Your OP did. Look, i know the research that goes on in my field because i travel once-twice a year to the top Conferences in my field. The majority i see among them are folks from American-Univs (a good bunch of Chinese and Indian ppl there), from EU, and a handful from Japan, Korea, China and India. In all these years, I have NEVER met one Pakistani or Iranian from his country. Hence, my rebuttal to his post.

 

[VCheng]

are you addressing us all or only Developereo?

ALL of us, including myself.

Let's move on to the really important stuff!

 

[LaBong]

The point we were discussing was the NAM charade and the fact that the USSR intervened militarily on behalf of India. Nobody ever denied that the US and China had formed a marriage of convenience. Every time you lose a discussion, you change the goalposts and start flailing around.



Read the direct transcript of the Soviet commander on the scene instead of after-the-fact diplobabble by a career diplomat. The encounters are all in the Bay of Bengal. The US sent the Seventh Fleet to the Bay of Bengal to protect China? Exactly what Chinese assets were in the Bay of Bengal in 1971? Ever try opening a map?

In any case, as stated above, the point to prove was that the Soviets directly intervened on behalf of India.



No, you are just trying to dance around when you lose a point.



The same way you 'shamed' the Chinese in those threads, no doubt. Self-delusion seems to run high over there.

very well genius, now understand that nobody denies that Russia intervened on behalf of India, but the question is how does that place india to communist block. Did us sending cbg to indian ocean and promising china to help them militarily put china in capitalist block?

Yeah private conversation between kissinger and pm of cpc has no worth, apparently because you said so; I'm thrilled at the flagard display of self worth!

And I'm still waiting for you to explain what you meant by india-us cooperation, is that economic in nature, strategic in nature or pakistani in nature? Albeit I'm sure you'd as usual evade the question by asking me to google Clinton, obama, bush, lochness monster, big foot et al.

 

[VCheng]

How can Pakistan convince America to re-calibrate its view of the region, to convince it that it is more useful alive than dead?

Whatever the US view is of the region, there are two things that can be safely said: it is going to be long-term, and it is not going to be Pakistan-centric. I think it would be better for Pakistan to understand this point of view and then seeing how Pakistan can offer to fit within that vision, rather than trying to change it outright, as the next question shows.

What are the common interests that Pakistan can propose to change the American administration's mindset?

The biggest common interest is fighting terrorism; Pakistan can go a long way in denying the use of its territory and indeed even its support to some of these elements it regards as assets and not terrorists, which is a huge mistake.

And, just as importantly, what are likely to be the main roadblocks derailing any Pakistani efforts?

I think I answered that in the answer to the question above.

==========================

Let's use these preliminary answers to move the discussion forward, shall we?

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

It's getting tiresome to spoon-feed you guys. I gave one example to show how Indian-Pakistan rivalry is alive and well. There are many other areas where India and Pakistan have locked horns -- Afghanistan being another example. There are more, if you get my drift.





"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Understand that, and you will understand what's going on.

No need to spoon feed . India does not need Pakistan's head on a platter for anything . It doesn't serve any Indian interests and you have not been able to prove otherwise .

That Indian preparation for a two front war is a sign of that was a very weak response . Anyways , I won't ask you any further questions . Don't need to .

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

@Perception
its good to know that you are not a bot. in the past you have been only posting news items without any comments. We normally put bets who would post anything coming out of anywhere in the world that show Pakistan badly, will it be help seeker or you ?

but please give yourself a rest and don’t get too much worked up with an article which the writer has said himself is an opinion. kindly do comment but without the emotional discharge. your first post deserved to be deleted because you did a good job of flame baiting.

the post above still shows that the fumes have not died down yet. I appreciate your effort though and I give credit to all Indians who have engaged in the discussion with more than the rhetoric and ranting. But if it cant be helped then please do launch an official protest. I know you guys have been busy taking offence on anything that is said in jest or as a matter of fact that shows India in a bad way. Who knows if the Top Gear’s Jeremy Clarkson’s comments incensed your government so extremely that it awarded MMRCA contract to the French?

By the way, good commentary regarding Iran Vs India comparison. But Americans are not doing like for like comparison here. Iran has black gold and that makes the Yankee mare go round

I sincerely hope this was a joke .The bold part.Especially coming from a member like you .

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I sincerely hope this was a joke .The bold part.Especially coming from a member like you .

no sir I dont joke on important matters like these. and by the way there is a special sticky for the jokes.
and please do tell why I cant say what I said?

I dont say things out of jest or being snide. the way Indian goverment reacted to that British Joker was excessive and my post was in response to how Perception has reacted to this article, so my comment was not that off the mark.
think of it as a neutral person.

 

[deckingraj]

The Soviet intervention was about as direct as it can get. I posted the transcript of the Soviet Commander above where he describes actually aiming their missile systems.

The point was that the USSR was not in the habit of challenging the USN directly for just any country. The relationship with India was special, indeed. Russia was India's primary weapons supplier; it directly challenged the USN on India's behalf.

NAM? yeah sure!

Tell me one single geo-political benefit that India of 71 would have provided USSR?? And once again who is denying special relationship??? Why is such a basic thing getting so difficult to explain....there is huge difference b/w being friends to someone and joining blocks..when u r in a block the opposite side is your enemy....when u r not in a block the opposite side is just an enemy of your dear friend....It is NAM that today we manage to have good relations with both Russia and US, Israel and Palestine, Iran and SA...whereas Pak has yet to come up in terms with reality of Israel and hardly managed to break the impasse with Russia....do u see the difference???

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

no sir I dont joke on important matters like these. and by the way there is a special sticky for the jokes.
and please do tell why I cant say what I said?

I dont say things out of jest or being snide. the way Indian goverment reacted to that British Joker was excessive and my post was in response to how Perception has reacted to this article, so my comment was not that off the mark.
think of it as a neutral person.

I agree with the fact that Indian politicians reacted excessively to that Brits comments but to tie that to the Rafale deal is hilarious to say the least . I don't know about Pakistan but that is not how things work in India.

 

[Developereo]

Yeah right, better than the "Pakistani Denial" theory. Ask yourself these fundamental questions ; What was the Gross Savings (National and Domestic) in percentage terms and capital terms in 1989 and 2009 ? What was the Capital Formation in 1989 and 2009 ? Let me help you with some numbers on capital formation, and you can fill the rest as a part of your education here. Capital formation increased from 70 B$ to 500 B$ whereas Exports increased from 200 M$ to 270 B$. Now, work out the same for Savings. I am sure you understand the ripple effect of growing capital formation leading to economic growth.Economic growth is strongly correlated to capital formation AND NOT exports.

Capital formation as % of GDP 1990-2008: 24% to 34%
Exports as % of GDP 1990-2008: 7%-23%

You are comparing a 40% increase to a 240% increase! Maybe the math works differently in "Incredible India", but in the rest of the world, the major factor here is the exports.

Moreover, capital follows the market trends. If a cheap call center in India provides value to the customer, capital will flow there even though the product is used half a world away. Capital formation says nothing about the consumption side of the market.

I notice you quickly backtracked from your claim that Indian growth is driven by domestic demand. That was not the primary driver in the crucial initial years.

Regarding Iran, how many Nobel Laureates have Iran produced and how many have India produced ? How many Field medal winners or Turing award winners have Iran produced ? Look at Iran's scientific output and India's scientific output, quality and quantity. Pakistan does not even get a mention when it comes to science and output.

Yet more Indian self-delusion. The overwhelming driver of Indian outsourcing is price, not quality. India are known as the place where you can get it done cheaply. The cases of Indian innovation are few and far between and insignificant in terms of the GDP.

The same "Western" support theory applies to China too ; As i said, There is no free Lunch. India took advantage of a free market just like China did 2 decades before it, and has reaped its benefits.

The earlier delusional bravado was that India's growth was domestic driven, denying that the West had any role. Now that that was shown to be nonsense, it's time for the dance.

Lol, the entire premises of this claptrap ignores the South East Asian region as a whole into the US jigsaw of Asian domination, which is a far more complex problem to look at and you want to put on blinders and view Pakistan as the last citadel of American expansionist interests in Asia. Pakistan has, is and will be small fry for American interests. The challenges for US lie in the ASEAN region with Malaysia tilting towards China with growing Chinese clout and will pull out all stops to reverse the "domino" effect Ala the Cold War era like it did to the Soviets. Pakistan cannot influence any of the CARs leave alone Asia, so pop goes your balloon of Pakistani self-worth.

Indians may lack the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time, but no one ever claimed the US was unable to focus on two problems at once. Whatever happens in SE Asia is unrelated to the discussion. This discussion is specifically about US policy towards Pakistan and this region, not SE Asia, so try not to let the twisted diapers cloud your focus.

Post Soviet withdrawal, Pakistan successfully blocked Indian designs in Afghanistan, and the US is trying to redress the situation by installing India. As explained above, this ties in with the politics around central Asia and China.

As I stated in my first post... Overestimation of their own worth .... Paranoia is running high in few gentleman... did I hit a nerve Don't delete my post because it is a summary.

People who grow up in an "Incredible India" cocoon do tend to have a strong reaction when reality hits them.

I agree that i might have gone slightly overboard on seeing the content ; If u wish me to get off this thread (this forum maybe), then heck, I am off. As i mentioned in an earlier post, i consider OP-EDs from a perspective of a paper. Cite sources, provide insights and give ur analysis. I tore into the OP merely because i saw none of those in the post.

The issues and sources have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. I can't be responsible if educating every new Indian that wakes up in their "Incredible India" cocoon and throws a hissy fit when shown the reality. Incoherent ranting is symptomatic of Indians living in denial.

Firstly I did not bring Iran up ; Your OP did. Look, i know the research that goes on in my field because i travel once-twice a year to the top Conferences in my field. The majority i see among them are folks from American-Univs (a good bunch of Chinese and Indian ppl there), from EU, and a handful from Japan, Korea, China and India. In all these years, I have NEVER met one Pakistani or Iranian from his country. Hence, my rebuttal to his post.

As I said, Indian innovation, or lack thereof, is irrelevant in India's growth. As deflating as it may be to the Indian ego, the fact is that India is seen as the land of cheap labor, not smart labor.

 

[Developereo]

very well genius, now understand that nobody denies that Russia intervened on behalf of India, but the question is how does that place india to communist block. Did us sending cbg to indian ocean and promising china to help them militarily put china in capitalist block?

I never claimed that India was a hardcore communist country like SU or China. My claim, and you can read it again, is that Russia and India had an alliance, and Pakistan and US had the opposite alliance. Whatever charade India played with the NAM show didn't change the fact of this basic alliance. The SU was India's primary weapons supplier and physically came to India's defence in 1971. If this is not an alliance, I don't know what is.

Yeah private conversation between kissinger and pm of cpc has no worth, apparently because you said so; I'm thrilled at the flagard display of self worth!

I am sure the Chinese were amused at Kissinger's rather obvious deception. The USN has some very good maps. If they wanted to "defend" China against the Soviets, they would show up in the Sea of Japan or the South China Sea. The Bay of Bengal isn't exactly the first place that comes to mind when you think China-Russia.

And I'm still waiting for you to explain what you meant by india-us cooperation, is that economic in nature, strategic in nature or pakistani in nature? Albeit I'm sure you'd as usual evade the question by asking me to google Clinton, obama, bush, lochness monster, big foot et al.

And you will wait forever. Like I wrote, I can't spoon-feed every new Indian that walks out of their cocoon. This particular debate (with the links) has been recurring periodically even in def.pk. Most recently it happened after the Australian nuke deal for India.

 

[Developereo]

Tell me one single geo-political benefit that India of 71 would have provided USSR??

India and Russia were in bed together in Afghanistan.

And once again who is denying special relationship??? Why is such a basic thing getting so difficult to explain....there is huge difference b/w being friends to someone and joining blocks..when u r in a block the opposite side is your enemy....when u r not in a block the opposite side is just an enemy of your dear friend....It is NAM that today we manage to have good relations with both Russia and US, Israel and Palestine, Iran and SA...whereas Pak has yet to come up in terms with reality of Israel and hardly managed to break the impasse with Russia....do u see the difference???

We are not talking about today, but the Cold War era. Post Soviet implosion, the NAM charade has outlived its usefulness.

In that era, who was the primary weapons supplier for India, for Pakistan? In 1971, which side sent actual military support to India? to Pakistan?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.